Establishing rules for Varies ratings

[Maverick_Zero_X]

I noticed that “Varies” ratings don’t have specific standards for them listed in any of our Wiki Rules (or none that I could find), and Variable Tiers don’t even have so much as a passing mention on the Tiering System page.

The lack of defined standards has caused Variable Tiers to be inconsistently used. Generally, most people I’ve seen comment on the matter say Varies ratings should only be applied to characters with clearly defined canon explanations for why their statistics fluctuate (Kryptonians and Power Rings users from DC, the Hulk, “Determination” users from Undertale,
Power Mimicry users, ect), but it’s also used for characters that are simply inconsistent (such as several iconic cartoon characters, while other cartoons characters have flat ratings despite being equally inconsistent).

I’m proposing we create some standards for Variable Tiers to add to our Editing Rules.

For the record, I’m in the boat that simply being inconsistent shouldn’t qualify for a Varies rating, as that’s a clear slippery slope.

 

[Propellus]

I do understand the premise of this situation, but what do you standards are you willing to add to improve the system? You didn't really quite explain what was going to change or why it's an issue for cartoon characters that depends on their nature in order for them to work.

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

I do understand the premise of this situation, but what do you standards are you willing to add to improve the system? You didn't really quite explain what was going to change or why it's an issue for cartoon characters that depends on their nature in order for them to work.

Well I'm not really revising any existing rules since there are none on this matter from what I can gather. I'm proposing we create some rules for Variable Tiers and use the (presumably) generally accepted consensus that they should only be used for characters with canonical explanations for why their power varies.

 

[Propellus]

Fair enough

 

[LordTracer]

I agree wholeheartedly. Varies should only apply to characters who have canonical reasons for their power to vary, simply being inconsistent shouldn’t be enough.

 

[LordGriffin1000]

I guess something like this?

Varies

"This rating should only be given to characters who have a canon explination as to why their statistics fluctuate. This does not include characters who simply have inconsistent feats, like certain cartoon characters."

We can add examples like the ones in the OP.

Also, the reason cartoon characters shouldn't have the rating is because they actually have no canon reason, they are just inconsistent (we should just go with the more consistent feats honestly). We actually had a thread discussing this issue but I don't think it was finished.

 

[Propellus]

Then I suppose we should also establish some basic rules for cartoons that are just straight up and completely inconsistent on purpose and not strictly super serious?

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

Then I suppose we should also establish some basic rules for cartoons that are just straight up and completely inconsistent on purpose and not strictly super serious?

If a verse is inconsistent to an unexplainable, irreconcilable extent I believe we'd simply take every Feat into account and rate the characters by whichever Tier is most often demonstrated.

 

[Psychomaster35]

I mean, for cartoons focused on gags to the point where they are too inconsistent to rate (Not that most cartoon creators care about how strong they want to make their characters), I’d say we should just find the highest, most consistent tier they sit at and solidly rate them that. Simple as that.

I should also note that if there are slightly more low end feats than there are high end feats, I’d just accept the higher end rating as their solid tier given consistency without trying to give any downplays (IE. They have 5 feats for tier 9 and 4 feats for tier 5)

By the way, the Ed, Edd, n Eddy examples you linked are bad since they are the result of 2 ends of the same calc being accepted and not necessarily based on inconsistency

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

I mean, for cartoons focused on gags to the point where they are too inconsistent to rate (Not that most cartoon creators care about how strong they want to make their characters), I’d say we should just find the highest, most consistent tier they sit at and solidly rate them that. Simple as that.

Why specifically the highest tier? That seems arbitrary.

 

[Psychomaster35]

I just edited my comment while you were commenting

 

[LordTracer]

Varies

"This rating should only be given to characters who have a canon explination as to why their statistics fluctuate. This does not include characters who simply have inconsistent feats, like certain cartoon characters."

Looks good to me. I would also include comic characters as an example, since they can be fairly inconsistent at times.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

We had quite a few "Varies" tier revisions, but I suppose they were never really applied to ones who currently still have them. But I still agree that it should only apply to characters with in verse explanations for characters to have their powers and abilities fluctuate such as the aforementioned Marvel/DC characters in the OP with Lobo also added to that list. Where as Toon Force users are kind of a different can of worms, I think at least, possibly ratings or looking for ways to single out absolute low ends as PIS or some occasions being absolute high ends as outliers sounds better than just giving variable. Or in for the specific case of Toon Force characters who are just meant to be overpowered for the sake of being overpowered such as Bobobo or Popeye (With chowed down Spinach), I would just given them the Saitama treatment and stick to their best feats.

 

[KLOL506]

We also need to stop assuming that every single character can canonically hold back on their durability by default just because they pulled their punches, most of the time that is not the case unless their energy systems are explicitly shown/stated to be able to lower all stats for a fairer fight. Most of the times the characters hold back well below their own durability while remaining unharmed from attacks of comparably-strong opponments.

 

[AbaddonTheDisappointment]

By the way, the Ed, Edd, n Eddy examples you linked are bad since they are the result of 2 ends of the same calc being accepted and not necessarily based on inconsistency

Honestly it isn't really a bad example. If it's based on the fact that it's using two ends, just make it "9-A, possibly 8-C+" to account for that instead of a varies key since nothing about their stats really varies.

 

[Psychomaster35]

Honestly it isn't really a bad example. If it's based on the fact that it's using two ends, just make it "9-A, possibly 8-C+" to account for that instead of a varies key since nothing about their stats really varies.

To be fair, the mid end of their calc ended up getting accepted so they were supposed to lose their 9-A rating

 

[AbaddonTheDisappointment]

To be fair, the mid end of their calc ended up getting accepted so they were supposed to lose their 9-A rating

Okay yeah fair enough that's just the profile being outdated then

 

[Antvasima]

@DontTalkDT

How do you think that we should handle this?

 

[DontTalkDT]

Whether a character that is inconsistent can get varies should be determined case-by-case IMO.
Toon Force stuff in particular just has a natural tendency to be inconsistent in the nature of the ability. If you so want, cartoon logic is the canonical mechanic of them varying, even if not explicitly spelt out. (Didn't we have a thread on that before? I believe we had)

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Whether a character that is inconsistent can get varies should be determined case-by-case IMO.
Toon Force stuff in particular just has a natural tendency to be inconsistent in the nature of the ability. If you so want, cartoon logic is the canonical mechanic of them varying, even if not explicitly spelt out. (Didn't we have a thread on that before? I believe we had)

We had two, and honestly the opinion polls have been split, originally most agreed with me on the first one save for Eficiente until Impress stepped in and her main reason has to do with "It's common for cartoon characters to have each episode essentially feel like their own continuity." Which honestly sounds like it would result in it being too messy for verses with loose canons as it sounds like proposing a whole punch of keys and/or profiles for a single character based on how they're portrayed for each episode or game they're in would get to all over the place. Though she apparently didn't propose that but if "Canon split" was a reason, then it sounds weird she was proposing varies between absolute low end and absolute high end.

Plus Agnaa and ArmorChompy was in the previous thread and they both seemed to agree with my take for the most part. And Agnaa brought up a good point that making every single Toon Force user varies between 10-C via getting bisected by a paper airplane to "X Tier" via the biggest gag they ever demonstrated would be too off the wall and essentially be just as bad as making every Marvel/DC Herald varies between 10-B and 1-A.

 

[ImmortalDread]

(call me when you need a page)

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

I agree with the OP

I agree wholeheartedly. Varies should only apply to characters who have canonical reasons for their power to vary, simply being inconsistent shouldn’t be enough.

Pretty much everything I wanna say.

 

[Propellus]

Whether a character that is inconsistent can get varies should be determined case-by-case IMO.
Toon Force stuff in particular just has a natural tendency to be inconsistent in the nature of the ability. If you so want, cartoon logic is the canonical mechanic of them varying, even if not explicitly spelt out. (Didn't we have a thread on that before? I believe we had)

Do you think there should be a Terminology page that takes Toon Forcey stuff into account to make things easier around here?

 

[ImmortalDread]

Do you think there should be a Terminology page that takes Toon Forcey stuff into account to make things easier around here?

VS Battles Glossary

This page will focus on providing some insight about commonly used terms here on the Vs Battles Wiki and on the external Vs Battles Wiki Forum. While some of these terms are exclusive to our platform, you may see some of the these terms being used in other community-based discussion forums.

vsbattles.fandom.com

You are referring to this?

 

[Propellus]

No, I was referring to something like this

 

[ImmortalDread]

Should not be replaced under Inconsistencies? Since varies has this definition:

These are characters, weapons, etcetera, whose power levels are heavily inconsistent and/or subject to change. As well as for profiles of races/species whose power levels vary depending on the member.

 

[DontTalkDT]

We had two, and honestly the opinion polls have been split, originally most agreed with me on the first one save for Eficiente until Impress stepped in and her main reason has to do with "It's common for cartoon characters to have each episode essentially feel like their own continuity." Which honestly sounds like it would result in it being too messy for verses with loose canons as it sounds like proposing a whole punch of keys and/or profiles for a single character based on how they're portrayed for each episode or game they're in would get to all over the place. Though she apparently didn't propose that but if "Canon split" was a reason, then it sounds weird she was proposing varies between absolute low end and absolute high end.

Plus Agnaa and ArmorChompy was in the previous thread and they both seemed to agree with my take for the most part. And Agnaa brought up a good point that making every single Toon Force user varies between 10-C via getting bisected by a paper airplane to "X Tier" via the biggest gag they ever demonstrated would be too off the wall and essentially be just as bad as making every Marvel/DC Herald varies between 10-B and 1-A.

Comparing it to Heralds in Marvel/DC is somewhat misplaced. Like, as said, the rules of toon force in itself basically are the mechanic for the varies. It's not that those characters are supposed to have a level and it's depicted inconsistently, but that they are not supposed to have a consistent level to begin with. They vary not just between arcs and writers but from one moment to the next.

Wouldn't pretending that Toon Force characters can consistently output and endure a certain force regardless of the situation (and its comedy) be misrepresenting their fundamental nature? I think so. We keep Toon Force an ability separate from reality warping for a reason.

One could debate cleaning out complete outliers, but pretending like they have some consistent output in the middle of their feats would not reflect what they do well.

 

[LordTracer]

Comparing it to Heralds in Marvel/DC is somewhat misplaced.

Well, some people think we should give them Varies based on who’s writing them, because they’re inconsistent or other nonsense like that, so it’s good to mention them.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Comparing it to Heralds in Marvel/DC is somewhat misplaced. Like, as said, the rules of toon force in itself basically are the mechanic for the varies. It's not that those characters are supposed to have a level and it's depicted inconsistently, but that they are not supposed to have a consistent level to begin with. They vary not just between arcs and writers but from one moment to the next.

Wouldn't pretending that Toon Force characters can consistently output and endure a certain force regardless of the situation (and its comedy) be misrepresenting their fundamental nature? I think so. We keep Toon Force an ability separate from reality warping for a reason.

One could debate cleaning out complete outliers, but pretending like they have some consistent output in the middle of their feats would not reflect what they do well.

A lot of old school cartoon characters also have the issue of reboots and have had numerous writers over the years, and some of them even predate Marvel/DC. So it's not limited to the heralds of Marvel/DC but also the oldest of oldest cartoons and comics in general. Though small detail, it was more so ArmorChompy who said it; had him mixed up with Agnaa. But the "Varies between 10-C to Universal tier" for a lot of characters still sounds weird without lore details.

Not really, the way you're wording it makes it sound more like Toon Force is a lot of those verses version of Ki Control. And "Toon Force being a superpower" sounds more like a reason to justify high end feats rather than "He has a variable tier because he cartoonishly blows on planets and stars but he also gets bisected by a pair of baby scissors." Even characters without toon force have "He can destroy planets with his punches and powerful energy blasts, but also gets severly injured by ordinary bullets." Toon Force or not, a lot of verses have inconsistency. Also you yourself basically said "Toon Force is a superpower" but a variable tier kind of makes both a superpower and a weakness at the same time.

There are ways to find some consistency, and variable tiers do to an extent. I already explained the difference between consistency and frequency on the previous thread and listed out some guidelines for.

• There should be more than one feat within a specific ballpark
  • The more feats the better
  • A baseline may vary depending on how lengthy a series is
• It should generally consists of feats down without strings attached
  • The character(s) in question preferably should perform it with their own strength/powers and abilities naturally capable, or standard equipment and without some situational amplifications or outside help
  • Should also have direct feats be numerous instead of indirect feats unless the latter is exceptionally numerous or consists of face value powerscaling
    • This means it's usually consistent of the users own attack potency feats such as their own destruction feats
    • This does not mean all durability feats are outliers because if quite numerous and done regularly, it can still be consistent
    • This also does not mean powerscaling is forbidden, because being equal to or officially superior to another character with very consistent direct feats also qualifies.
  • It also should be noted that base key characters being equal or superior to amplified characters doesn't automatically rule out powerscaling.

Likewise, I have my own hypothetical system for making it easier to distinct outliers, PIS, and consistent feats from each other consisting of four main types and I do notice even those types can have sub types. Being a Toon Force user doesn't automatically lock them as being a Type 2 protagonist (Which is the inconsistent type that most Toon Force users + Marvel/DC heralds fall under). Some Toon Force users are Type 1 (The generally underpowered types like what Batman is for DC comics or characters from realistic verses such as Walter White or Seong Gi-Hun) such as Eric Cartman. Other Toon Force users are the Type 4 protagonists (The overpowered for the sake of being overpowered types such as Saitama) such as Bobobo or Popeye with Spinach Enhancement. And some Toon Force users could be more RPG/Shounen like or Type 3 where they are meant to get progressively stronger as the series progresses.

It's not that hard to find consistent ends. And even those who don't have consistent ends could either be Unknown or just not be indexed.

 

[Antvasima]

@DarkDragonMedeus

Can you explain your and DontTalk's respective views regarding this issue in an easy to understand manner please?

@Agnaa

Your input would also be appreciated here.

 

[Agnaa]

I've had this issue for a while, and have strongly agreed with the OP's message. Varies should not be given for inconsistency. DDM represented my view on this well.

Varies should also not be given for two ends being accepted. CGMs could come together to pick one and only one of the tiers to be used.

If DT truly wants Toon Force to be represented in that way (which I disagree with; it seems presumptuous to assume that all verses are using that unstated Ki Control-esque system), it shouldn't be done through Varies, as in fights that just ends up playing out as them either being at their strongest or their weakest for the entire fight. Do something like "Up to X through Toon Force", explain that it's inconsistent, and use it that way in fights.

Still, above that solution, I endorse DDM's.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Can you explain both of the main suggestions here please?

 

[Agnaa]

One would be to restrict Varies ratings to only working for characters who only have an explicit in-universe reason for their strength to vary. Inconsistent cartoon characters would have to try their best to find a consistent end, or use likely/possibly for higher ends.

One would be to mostly do that, but add in an exception for cartoon characters (I can't tell if this is meant to be all of them, such as ones who are inconsistent but lack Toon Force, or only ones who more clearly have Toon Force) where they can vary through that, by assuming that Toon Force makes their strength fluctuate wildly from moment to moment. In matches, I strongly believe that this should entail their power level jumping around across the course of the match, rather than being fixed to a specific tier as it is now.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay, and what do DontTalk and Medeus respectively think should be done here?

 

[Agnaa]

DDM seems to prefer the former, DT seems to prefer the latter.

Aside from them, among staff members who traditionally have voting rights, Mav, LordTracer, LordGriffin, and Emirp agree with DDM, and none have weighed in yet agreeing with DT.

 

[Antvasima]

I am personally uncertain.

It is simpler to only give varies tiers to characters that have this as a canonical part of their abilities, yes, but others, such as Spongebob, Looney Tunes, and many Marvel Comics characters, are so insanely inconsistent that we need to allow ourselves some leeway to evaluate them on a case-by-case basis to a degree.

Suggestions for constructive solutions would be very appreciated.

 

[Agnaa]

I'm not sure if such characters need to be treated differently. I think their main difficulty is the sheer size of their history.

Not giving Varies means needing to pay attention to more feats, but I think that doing so is important in general; if you don't pay attention to the low-end feats, if you promptly forget about each anti-feat, you may not realise how many there are, and end up giving a character a higher tier than they deserve. I've ended up doing that myself before (and this could theoretically happen in the other direction, with not taking high-end statements seriously and dismissing them, despite their prevalence).

 

[Antvasima]

Yes, but the problem is that people tend to only focus on a few absolutely highest maximum outlier territory feats and then want to scale the entire verse from them, without any regard for consistency or lowest level outliers, as I think has happened with Spongebob and Marvel Comics.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

The difference is that a lot of Marvel/DC characters actually have In Universe reasons such as Hulk's "The angrier he gets, the stronger he gets" and Superman's "The more solar radiation he stores up the stronger he gets" combined with the fact that he can weaken if either his mental barriers restrict him or if he overuses his Kryptonian powers faster than the sun can fuel him. And a lot of Marvel characters also hold back because of their nature such as Thor, which I would avoid scaling those characters from a serious Thor.

I am not so sure about Spongebob, he is just plain inconsistent though I obviously wouldn't scale everyone from his absolute highest peak. It's pretty consistent that his best feats are things almost no one else has ever done. Patrick was literally ragdolled when Spongebob was flipping the background using a wrench, and Squidward was suffocating from him absorbing the Ocean. As for Bugs Bunny, he literally toys with most of the badguys and Daffy is usually the only rival who is consistently his equal. And other times, his anti-feats are do to things like faking his death to guilt trip Elmer Fudd. There is also the issue of removing composites and separating different series such as originals from reboots and remasterings and spinoffs for Looney Toons. There's also comics and cartoons being different continuities to separate yes. Also, Bobobo and Arale's low end portrayals are due to them not using their full powers or they purposely wanted to make villains that damaged them, so it's more so them harming themselves rather than getting harmed by enemies given both characters are often portrayed as writing their own series.

Sometimes, up to X tier via toon force sounds solid, but I would write a foot note to possibly avoid scaling to other characters unless they demonstrate other feats or are specially stated to have powers beyond the character in question. But adding some random low ends for characters who clearly are more than capable of the absolute stuff would still not be something that sounds right unless they have in universe reasons. Though I would also note some one time feats could still be outliers.

 

[ImmortalDread]

Before I start writing the page, I assume, everyone agrees with an established page for varies and be replaced under this category?

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vsbattles.fandom.com

And I got permission from OP to comment and assist the matter here. I will try to add introduction, some factors to consider, examples and add some notes.