Four Shades Boundary/Conceptual Manipulation

[MSahla]

but the fact still remains that these concepts existed before the shades and are not dependent on their existence to exist. before the shades existed, time progressed, life was born, people died, and space seperated everything. there hasnt been a scan saying the concepts didnt exist before the shades or else no one would live, die, nothing would progress, and everything would be a jumbled mess without space seperating things

When you're saying “people died, life was born”, there's actually no difference between both of them. And all of you're saying here is basically, unless there’s a clear statement or scan explicitly confirming that, that’s just an assumption, not evidence. So Just because something looks like time passing or life existing doesn’t mean those concepts were fully established systems.

 

[MSahla]

After this, then I leave it to the OP to decide whether to continue this CRT with 2 staff votes against it or close it, pending something clearer in the future

Me too ig, i want to finish this CRT as soon as possible.

 

[Grabbing_dragon]

But you're assuming that “no concepts = nothingness”, which not that really necessary. A pre-conceptual or undifferentiated state is still a state of existence, just not one divided by distinctions like time, space, or life and death.

Then they don’t qualify, because with the low interpretation of CM that we are using, all life shouldn’t exist without the concept of life, and death shouldn’t exist without the concept of death itself, etc

 

[MSahla]

Then they don’t qualify, because with the low interpretation of CM that we are using, all life shouldn’t exist without the concept of life, and death shouldn’t exist without the concept of death itself, etc

Well, you're treating concepts as necessary for existence, when they could just be necessary for structure and definition, whichn is the case here. I never denied the fact that these concepts were exist already, but we're talking about it's function, definition, and etc.

 

[Mbpoops]

If they arent nessesary for existance then its not cm1 or 2 at most cm3 but with the evidence provided its just law manip

 

[MSahla]

If they arent nessesary for existance then its not cm1 or 2 at most cm3 but with the evidence provided its just law manip

Brother.. Life, Death, Time, Space, Fate, Causality are not personal concepts.

 

[MSahla]

their abilities align more closely with Boundary Creation, Concept Establishment/Concept Creation, and Reality Structuring, rather than just simple law control.

Or should i change this to Concept Alteration so we're clear?

• Concept Alteration: The ability to manipulate, alter, or change concepts. By using this ability, concepts themselves can be changed in a variety of ways. The concept can have an object added to it, an object taken from it, or change the current principle of the concept. If a concept is changed, the world is altered in some way to fit this new conceptual definition, though the extent of this varies by the type of concept being manipulated.

 

[MSahla]

Yeah, if we think about it, this is more like a Concept Alteration.

 

[Grabbing_dragon]

Well, you're treating concepts as necessary for existence, when they could just be necessary for structure and definition, whichn is the case here. I never denied the fact that these concepts were exist already, but we're talking about it's function, definition, and etc.

Even if we add the definition part, it also applies to existence itself. Without the concept of death-ness, death wouldn’t exist as death. Space wouldn’t be space without the concept of space-ness etc. So they still don’t qualify, because even in that sense, the particulars can’t exist without the concept

 

[MSahla]

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I changed the proposals from Concept Creation to → Concept Alteration with the same evidences as in the OP.

their abilities align more closely with Boundary Creation, Concept Alteration, and Reality Structuring, rather than just simple law control.

Shortly, As you both (Twilight and Vietthai) know, these concepts were already existed before the Shades and Heavenly Principles arrival, but they don't have clearly definitions and differences, and also not yet separated from each other just like i have provided here:

• Nicole states that during the era of the Old World, there was no boundary between Life and Death.
• In the Moonlit Offering's Opulent Dream artifact description, it is said that during the time when the Three Moons still existed, the laws bestowed from the heavens had not yet been assembled, and the boundaries of humanity had not yet been defined.
• In Wenut's description, it is mentioned that the Dragons have lived even before the concept of time were created (this one referring to the Erosion, not actual universal concept of time)

And when they came, they changed the world down to its very foundation, which means it includes these four concepts and defined them as they exist today. And so therefore, they established these newly define concepts to the world as fundamental rules and structure of reality, yet also the boundaries of humanity.

• Nicole states that after the arrival of the Heavenly Principles, they changed the world down to its very foundation.
• In the book Hymns of the Far North, Prayer Song I: Pitkamoonen, it is stated that the Heavenly Principles have shattered the laws of the Old World.
• In the Finale of the Deep Galleries artifact description, it is stated that the Four Shades were tasked with governing the metaphysical laws of Teyvat — namely Life, Death, Time, and Space. The Voyager saw the earth had been bound beneath the Fourfold Shackles (the Four Shades)
• In the Nod-Krai Archon Quest Act 7, Dottore explains that these Four Great Rulers who govern Life, Death, Time, and Space anchor the world and bind those who live within it to the boundaries they defined, while they themselves transcend these boundaries.
  • This includes people's thinking, logic, culture, philosophy, and etc. Also with the concept of fate, which is the constellation, or Stella Fortuna that controls the fates (past, present, and future) of all humans in Teyvat.

So i think that Concept Alteration is more fit here

• Concept Alteration: The ability to manipulate, alter, or change concepts. By using this ability, concepts themselves can be changed in a variety of ways. The concept can have an object added to it, an object taken from it, or change the current principle of the concept. If a concept is changed, the world is altered in some way to fit this new conceptual definition, though the extent of this varies by the type of concept being manipulated.

So, i need you guys input again regarding this as well.

 

[MSahla]

I changed the proposals from Concept Creation to → Concept Alteration with the same evidences as in the OP.


Shortly, As you both (Twilight and Vietthai) know, these concepts were already existed before the Shades and Heavenly Principles arrival, but they don't have clearly definitions and differences, and also not yet separated from each other. And when they came, they changed and defined these concepts as they exist today and made them the fundamental structure of reality, also making them Law as humanity's boundary.

So, i need you guys' input again regarding this as well.

Of course, i will change the justifications of it too.

 

[Furina003]

Even if we add the definition part, it also applies to existence itself. Without the concept of death-ness, death wouldn’t exist as death. Space wouldn’t be space without the concept of space-ness etc. So they still don’t qualify, because even in that sense, the particulars can’t exist without the concept

Hasn't this already been explained? they are indeed in a state of neither life nor death.

 

[MSahla]

@Grabbing_dragon but what do you think of it as Concept Alteration? You know the context so i don't need to explain it again, right.

 

[Grabbing_dragon]

Hasn't this already been explained? they are indeed in a state of neither life nor death.

Because life and death are one, not in the sense of CM standards are after.

@Grabbing_dragon but what do you think of it as Concept Alteration? You know the context so i don't need to explain it again, right.

Still, pretty much hard to agree with it, as aside from needing different standards for law manipulation and concept manipulation, they can pretty much do the same thing somtimes when it comes to manipulation.

 

[MSahla]

Still, pretty much hard to agree with it, as aside from needing different standards for law manipulation and concept manipulation, they can pretty much do the same thing somtimes when it comes to manipulation.

I don't think changing the definitions of Life, Death, Time and Space itself is Law Manipulation, let alone separate all of them and to identify what they are.

they defined and altered the underlying principles of those concepts, which reshaped reality itself.

 

[Furina003]

Because life and death are one, not in the sense of CM standards are after.

Why do you think this doesn't fit the standard context of the concept of manipulation?
The world today has truly changed because boundaries have been defined, where creatures can live and die, are bound by time, and so on, because boundaries have been set.

The concept can have an object added to it, an object taken from it, or change the current principle of the concept. If a concept is changed, the world is altered in some way to fit this new conceptual definition, though the extent of this varies by the type of concept being manipulated.

Manipulating the law is limited to manipulating the rules, not defining its metaphysical aspects. As I previously exemplified, for example, the law of death, then everything related to death would be governed by this law, such as cycles, etc., but it doesn't define death itself.
So, manipulating the law can work after death exists, not the other way around.

 

[MSahla]

I changed the proposals from Concept Creation to → Concept Alteration with the same evidences as in the OP.


Shortly, As you both (Twilight and Vietthai) know, these concepts were already existed before the Shades and Heavenly Principles arrival, but they don't have clearly definitions and differences, and also not yet separated from each other just like i have provided here:


And when they came, they changed the world down to its very foundation, which means it includes these four concepts and defined them as they exist today and made them the fundamental structure of reality, also making them Law as humanity's boundary.


So i think that Concept Alteration is more fit here


So, i need you guys input again regarding this as well.

bump

 

[MSahla]

Bump

 

[TWILIGHT-OP]

I changed the proposals from Concept Creation to → Concept Alteration with the same evidences as in the OP.


Shortly, As you both (Twilight and Vietthai) know, these concepts were already existed before the Shades and Heavenly Principles arrival, but they don't have clearly definitions and differences, and also not yet separated from each other just like i have provided here:


And when they came, they changed the world down to its very foundation, which means it includes these four concepts and defined them as they exist today. And so therefore, they established these newly define concepts to the world as fundamental rules and structure of reality, yet also the boundaries of humanity.


So i think that Concept Alteration is more fit here


So, i need you guys input again regarding this as well.

Concept alteration is basically concept manipulation bruh, which I disagree. I'll be fine with law manipulation.
@Vietthai96
Would you mind confirming your stance here once more.

 

[MSahla]

Concept alteration is basically concept manipulation bruh, which I disagree. I'll be fine with law manipulation.
@Vietthai96
Would you mind confirming your stance here once more.

How is that still not concept manipulation, then? Because changing the Essence and Definitions of a metaphysical aspects is not something that Law Manipulation can do. Like you can ask anybody. Moreover, the standard of the Concept Alteration is literally fit with the context here.

If a concept is changed, the world is altered in some way to fit this new conceptual definition, though the extent of this varies by the type of concept being manipulated.

Old: Life, Death, Time and Space were not different and had not yet been defined as a separate things. The world did not know what is Life and Death because they're not different things.

New: Life, Death, Time and Space are a separate things and have been defined of what they are and how they were function, and thus the world follow this new definitions.

 

[MSahla]

Previously i proposed this Concept Manipulation as Concept Creation, but it was rejected due to “this concepts were already existed long before they exist in Teyvat.” So now i change that to Concept Alteration instead cause they changed the definitions and an essence of a concepts to a new conceptual definitions.

A law can say "humans die after 80 years."
But only conceptual manipulation can say "death no longer means cessation of existence" or "time is no longer linear as a concept."

 

[Mbpoops]

they changed the definitions and an essence of a concepts to a new conceptual definitions.

if this is cm2 applicable i wouldve given kiana cm because she changed the concept of "cooking" to "mei's cooking"

 

[MSahla]

if this is cm2 applicable i wouldve given kiana cm because she changed the concept of "cooking" to "mei's cooking"

???

 

[Vietthai96]

Concept alteration is basically concept manipulation bruh, which I disagree. I'll be fine with law manipulation.
@Vietthai96
Would you mind confirming your stance here once more.

Yeah, all I see is Law hax. There isn't a change in the actual definition of metaphysical aspects, but just a change in the principle of how these things work. They are most the same

 

[Mbpoops]

???

what you described is still law manip, they arent changing the "whatness" of the concept like for example they arent changing "circleness" to "squareness" just what defines these concepts and how the concept works (I.E: death before the concept change-death no longer means cessation of existence, death after the change-death = cesssation of existence)

 

[MSahla]

There isn't a change in the actual definition of metaphysical aspects, but just a change in the principle of how these things work.

I don't even know how is this just Law Manipulation, cause no Law Manipulation can define what is Life, Death, Time and Space itself, nor do they can change the definitions of them.

And saying “There isn't change in thr actual definition of metaphysical aspects” is REALLY REALLY funny because the proof itself have told you that the definition of these metaphysical aspects are completrly different by:

the fact that they are not different whatsoever

and they were not yet to be defined.

what you described is still law manip, they arent changing the "whatness" of the concept

Yes it is. The game have told us that these metaphysical aspects were there but not been defined YET. After they came to Teyvat, they changed them and define them as what they are right now. And now the world is literally following under this newly definitions.

like for example they arent changing "circleness" to "squareness" just what defines these concepts and how the concept works

Conceptual change doesn’t require turning one concept into a completely unrelated one, it includes modifying the defining attributes within the same concept.

 

[MSahla]

and they were not yet to be defined.

And see how they separate "the laws from thr heavens had not yet to be assembled" and "the boundaries of humanity had yet to be defined"?? Cause that's indicating a different things, because the latter are not Law Manipulation unlike the former.

 

[Vietthai96]

You keep saying they define life, death, time and space, but I don't see any actual definition here, time and space were already here before the Shades, the best you could get is those three scans about life and death, yet it is very vague. What is the supposed boundary here? people still live and die normally in both eras; if this is truly conceptual manipulation, then those came from the old era should also be considered neither alive nor dead

And the fourth scan just kill your entire argument where it just directly show that it is just law hax, and don't tell me this is some conceptual law thing which, require a lot of evidence for that

 

[Mbpoops]

You keep saying they define life, death, time and space, but I don't see any actual definition here,

wouldnt defining these concepts be like the basics of law manip because you're defining the rules of the concept?

time and space were already here before the Shades, the best you could get is those three scans about life and death, yet it is very vague. What is the supposed boundary here? people still live and die normally in both eras; if this is truly conceptual manipulation, then those came from the old era should also be considered neither alive nor dead

to add to this again cause i keep bringing it up, space being nonexistent before asmoday would break everything because it would just be a bundled mess of things since space doesnt exist to seperate things from one another

And the fourth scan just kill your entire argument where it just directly show that it is just law hax, and don't tell me this is some conceptual law thing which, require a lot of evidence for that

 

[Vietthai96]

wouldnt defining these concepts be like the basics of law manip because you're defining the rules of the concept?

It depends on what "define" mean, and we need supporting feats, not just a statement like A define X thing and then nothing more

 

[Furina003]

You keep saying they define life, death, time and space, but I don't see any actual definition here, time and space were already here before the Shades, the best you could get is those three scans about life and death, yet it is very vague. What is the supposed boundary here? people still live and die normally in both eras; if this is truly conceptual manipulation, then those came from the old era should also be considered neither alive nor dead

And the fourth scan just kill your entire argument where it just directly show that it is just law hax, and don't tell me this is some conceptual law thing which, require a lot of evidence for that

I just want to emphasize that there is no death or life in the era of the three moon goddesses, and there is no time in the era of the three moon goddesses.
All of that exists when order is established.

@Sahlwrld I suggest you just close this CRT, we will make it again someday, after everything is clear and with more relevant explanations

 

[MSahla]

You keep saying they define life, death, time and space, but I don't see any actual definition here, time and space were already here before the Shades, the best you could get is those three scans about life and death, yet it is very vague.

What vague? You already have the meaning of it. I already answered you before from your question: "What is the meaning of this there was no boundary between life and death".

Yeah, Life, Death, Time and Space were already there, but they were not yet been defined to separate them and identify them as them.

What is the supposed boundary here? people still live and die normally in both eras;

No? The first era they were not live and die normallly whatsoever, because life and death are not different. So if you were born in that era, that's just the same thing you were dead.

if this is truly conceptual manipulation, then those came from the old era should also be considered neither alive nor dead

Surprise, they are. Because they were all just a free willpower that doesn't have physical forms. They were all dragons, not humans.

Able to use their plumage for leaping, Iktomisaurs are also the only type of Saurian to have grasped how to enter the "Spiritspeaker" state.
According to legend, their ancestors did not have a physical form, and instead could drift like spirits between reality and the spiritual realm, manifesting themselves through the darkness of night. Some also say that the first Iktomisaur to emerge from the Night Kingdom was not actually a true Saurian, but rather a unique race distinct from ordinary Saurians.

And the fourth scan just kill your entire argument where it just directly show that it is just law hax, and don't tell me this is some conceptual law thing which, require a lot of evidence for that

What fourth scan?

 

[Vietthai96]

I just want to emphasize that there is no death or life in the era of the three moon goddesses, and there is no time in the era of the three moon goddesses.
All of that exists when order is established.

people still dying and living in that era? what?

Yeah, Life, Death, Time and Space were already there, but they were not yet been defined to separate them and identify them as them.

bro, life, death, time and space were there already????

Surprise, they are. Because they were all just a free willpower that doesn't have physical forms. They were all dragons, not humans.

So they just do not have physical form?, drifting between reality and spirit realm as......spirit???. Yeah this isn't conceptual hax at all

What fourth scan?

and they were not yet to be defined.

Your own scan

 

[MSahla]

bro, life, death, time and space were there already????

Funny how we follow the current rules because we know what is X and what is Y.

So they just do not have physical form?, drifting between reality and spirit realm as......spirit???. Yeah this isn't conceptual hax at all

Nobody trying to say that's a conceptual hax, dear Vietthai. What are u talking about.

Your own scan

I already addresed that btw.

And see how they separate "the laws from thr heavens had not yet to be assembled" and "the boundaries of humanity had yet to be defined"?? Cause that's indicating a different things, because the latter are not Law Manipulation unlike the former.

 

[Furina003]

people still dying and living in that era? what?

During the era of the 3 moon goddesses, humans did not even exist yet, humans were completely primordial creations. After 400 years of creating the world, humans were only created.

"Four Hundred Years After the Held Branches"
The mountains and rivers were made, and the seas and oceans accepted those who rebelled and those who would not kneel. The Primordial One and one of its shades created the birds of the air, the beasts of the earth, and the fish of the sea. Together, they also created flowers, grass, and trees, before finally creating humans — our ancestors, numerous as the stars in the sky, uncountable as the sand on the shore. From that time, our ancestors made a covenant with the Primordial One, and so entered into a new age.

During the era of the 3 moon goddesses, the creature was only present as free will, I think Sahl has explained this.

The 3 moon goddesses even admitted that the world order brought by the Primordial One was never even taught to them by the Nibelungs, this proves that the current order never existed during their era.

Canon: We co-existed in peace. They were like a guest in our home.
Aria: Slowly, however, we came to realize that our guest had a growing desire to change and dominate the world.
Columbina: And you didn't stop it?
Aria: No. There was an order to the rules they set up that Nibelung never taught us.
Aria: We wanted to know if this order would bode good or ill for Teyvat.

I'm even confused as to how we can simply consider this law manipulation, when they actually define those metaphysical boundaries.

This analysis even differs literally; establishing laws and defining boundaries are two different things.

 

[Mbpoops]

During the era of the 3 moon goddesses, humans did not even exist yet, humans were completely primordial creations. After 400 years of creating the world, humans were only created.

"life" isnt limited to humans. plants, animals, atoms, microorganisms all possess "life" so life still existed prior to the shade. assuming these creatures could die aswell with this reasoning

 

[Vietthai96]

This analysis even differs literally; establishing laws and defining boundaries are two different things.

bruhh, let's isolate two lines between "," and treating them as they were different

No, this not how the context is suppose to work

Anyway, we are going in cirlce, i still disagree given all the evidence and explanation

 

[Furina003]

"life" isnt limited to humans. plants, animals, atoms, microorganisms all possess "life" so life still existed prior to the shade. assuming these creatures could die aswell with this reasoning

where does this assumption come from?
while other scans clearly explain that they are only present as free will, not living beings, because the boundaries of life and death never existed.

bruhh, let's isolate two lines between "," and treating them as they were different

No, this not how the context is suppose to work

Anyway, we are going in cirlce, i still disagree given all the evidence and explanation

it's clear that defining boundaries and establishing laws are 2 different things , that's why they are mentioned separately.

yeah i also exited this crt

 

[TWILIGHT-OP]

I suggest, ask some mods who have expertise in conceptual manipulation.

 

[Mbpoops]

where does this assumption come from?
while other scans clearly explain that they are only present as free will, not living beings, because the boundaries of life and death never existed.

"Four Hundred Years After the Held Branches"
The mountains and rivers were made, and the seas and oceans accepted those who rebelled and those who would not kneel. The Primordial One and one of its shades created the birds of the air, the beasts of the earth, and the fish of the sea. Together, they also created flowers, grass, and trees, before finally creating humans — our ancestors, numerous as the stars in the sky, uncountable as the sand on the shore. From that time, our ancestors made a covenant with the Primordial One, and so entered into a new age.

bro this is YOUR scan. birds, beasts, flowers, grass and trees all have life and this is also supported in the scan because humans are right after this