Getting rid of small size from Hollow Knight

[Tural2004]

Greetings and welcome. I will be right to the point. So far bugs of Hallownest have been accepted as real bugs instead of some kind of bug people. But the fact that they are not anything like real bugs calls this notion into question. First of all, the reason why they are accepted as bug-sized is because of their overall bug theme, even though going purely by names without anything to compare is nothing more than an assumption. Doubly so when one considers that the reason why Team Cherry went for such a theme is just that it would be easy. This is further evidenced by other discrepancies such as nails, which are nothing alike actual nails despite the name. This naming theme is consistent throughout the game.


Besides naming, there are also many inconsistencies among people of Hallownest as well. While some inconsistencies are given as this is a game, there are also some glaring ones. Mythical creatures such as Wyrms aside, the ancient bugs (emphasize on the bug part) as a whole differ from the current bugs merely by size. There are multiple examples of these:


1) Shade Beast is far bigger than 99% of Hallownest Bugs.
2) There is also another guy called Green Beast in Greenpath.
3) We have the Ancient Nailsmith as well in the Kingdom's Edge.
4) Colesseum of Fools is another example since it is visibly made of a bug. Not to be redundant but it is big enough to house an entire colosseum.
5) Black Egg Temple is made of the shell of an ancient bug and it can be compared to Colesseum of Fools:

We can see that ancient bugs are consistently bigger than current bugs, more than what is possible in real life. In turn, that also means that we can't accept any size as an actual bug in the game. Such massive beings aren't exclusive to the past either. Bardoon is incomparably bigger than most beings in Hallownest and he is a caterpillar. And while not a massive being, Grimm isn't any kind of bug, even having a bat form that's smaller than the Knight.


By now, it should be evident that comparing actual bugs to the bugs of Hallownest is completely meaningless. So what do we do? Easy, we compare actual bugs to actual bugs and other things we can be sure of when it comes to size. We actually do it currently to some extent. I will go over it and all the other points:


1) Rain in City of Tears: As we can see in the city, rain appears to be comparable to normal rain humans experience. We even currently use the size of an average raindrop to find the size of the Knight. While this appears contrary to what I said, it actually proves that even when using pixelscaling actual bug-sized Hallownest Bugs is nonsense. And once we know that they are not bug-sized, there is no need to go the extra mile by pixelscaling as being called bugs was what made them bug-sized in this site, to begin with.


2) Delicate Flowers: There are also Delicate Flowers, which are actual flowers while being smaller than the bugs. Similar to the previous point, the game takes liberties with the art but either way, the sight can be compared to that of a normal human holding a flower when both a flower and a bug are side by side.


3) Lumaflies: Now, here comes the actual bugs I previously mentioned. The first one of them is lumaflies. These guys are scattered across the game and appear in multiple roles, such as companions in the Knight's Lantern or as enemies in Teacher's Achieves. They don't display any sentience and appear as real bugs, being far smaller than HK bugs.


4) Geo: This is the primary currency of Hallownest. What many people don't know is that, it is also fossilized bugs. This fact doesn't show up in the game but it is backed up both by the Manual and Wanderer's Journal.

5) Quirrel Prequel: Real bugs are seen in the comics decipting Quirrel as well and this is by far the most clear and decisive image of them we have seen. Alongside this, there is another reason why I didn't mention this point until now. Because Quirrel says something interesting here:


"Out here, only the simplest adapt, those who bear no burden of mind."


This is important because it helps us to make a distinction between actual bugs and Hallownest Bugs. We know that at some point in the past, Pale King granted bugs sapience:


Under palest watch, you taught, we changed, base instincts were redeemed - Elegy to Hallownest

The Wyrm becomes beacon, minds expanded, to yield, to devote - White Palace Lore Tablet


Combined with Quirrel's previous line, this implies that Hallownest Bugs were normal bugs in the beginning, both in size and intelligence but grew thanks to Pale King. It is further evidenced by Teacher's Achieves as Pale King is associated with growth:


KINGLIGHT-EM-GROWTH-INKIND-FLOW-ALLTHINK-ENFIELD


In an unconventional way, Pure Vessel might be an example of this growth. And all things considered, both this and all of the previous points should make it clear that Hallownest Bugs are distinct from actual bugs. But there is one more thing I need to mention before finishing. It might be more important than the rest of this write-up combined. That's Hornet's introduction in the kickstarter:


"You may catch glimpses of Hornet during your exploration of Hallownest, although she always seems to be one or two steps ahead of you. If you do manage to catch up with her, be wary! Her needle can cut a bug down from thirty yards."


Thirty yards... It is clearly way bigger than what an actual bug would manage and we can see her maximum effective range during our battle against her. In the second fight, she specifically talks about how she will not hold back so we can tell that what we see during the fight is the said 30 yards.


Well, that's all from me unless I forgot something.

 

[Lou_change]

The problem is then we don't have an actual size standard for them we can't just say someone is a certain size for no reason so unless you are going to provide a replacement estimate this means we can't calculate anything

 

[LightSoul8]

The problem is then we don't have an actual size standard for them we can't just say someone is a certain size for no reason so unless you are going to provide a replacement estimate this means we can't calculate anything

We'd just assume them to be human-sized by default. Verses that don't have established sizes are generally defaulted to being the same size as us unless otherwise indicated, and this thread seems to prove that there is no real way to establish a significantly non-human size. The average Husks would probably just be the sizes for Australian (because Team Cherry is in Australia) humans, and we can measure everything else from there.

 

[DavidTPPM]

1) Rain in City of Tears: As we can see in the city, rain appears to be comparable to normal rain humans experience. We even currently use the size of an average raindrop to find the size of the Knight. While this appears contrary to what I said, it actually proves that even when using pixelscaling actual bug-sized Hallownest Bugs is nonsense. And once we know that they are not bug-sized, there is no need to go the extra mile by pixelscaling as being called bugs was what made them bug-sized in this site, to begin with.


2) Delicate Flowers: There are also Delicate Flowers, which are actual flowers while being smaller than the bugs. Similar to the previous point, the game takes liberties with the art but either way, the sight can be compared to that of a normal human holding a flower when both a flower and a bug are side by side.


3) Lumaflies: Now, here comes the actual bugs I previously mentioned. The first one of them is lumaflies. These guys are scattered across the game and appear in multiple roles, such as companions in the Knight's Lantern or as enemies in Teacher's Achieves. They don't display any sentience and appear as real bugs, being far smaller than HK bugs.


4) Geo: This is the primary currency of Hallownest. What many people don't know is that, it is also fossilized bugs. This fact doesn't show up in the game but it is backed up both by the Manual and Wanderer's Journal.

5) Quirrel Prequel: Real bugs are seen in the comics decipting Quirrel as well and this is by far the most clear and decisive image of them we have seen. Alongside this, there is another reason why I didn't mention this point until now. Because Quirrel says something interesting here:

Honestly these are some very good points. What even are the arguments that they're bug sized besides "well they're referred to as bugs"? Unless there's more than that I'm inclined to 100% agree with the changes presented

 

[Tural2004]

The problem is then we don't have an actual size standard for them we can't just say someone is a certain size for no reason so unless you are going to provide a replacement estimate this means we can't calculate anything

As LightSoul said, we would just assume them to be human-sized. The only real problem would be determining which bug would be average human sized but I agree with LightSoul on this part too. Husks are the most common citizens of Hallownest and assuming they have average height is in line with the in-game statements about heights.

 

[LightSoul8]

Honestly these are some very good points. What even are the arguments that they're bug sized besides "well they're referred to as bugs"? Unless there's more than that I'm inclined to 100% agree with the changes presented

I think they also used HK having grass taller than most bugs, but the real world has foliage (including grass) taller than people too, so idk.

 

[DavidTPPM]

I think they also used HK having grass taller than most bugs, but the real world has foliage (including grass) taller than people too, so idk.

Lol grass that tall is pretty common. Especially in big fields. And most of the HK "grass" is just, yk, magical glowing plant stuff

 

[Arceus0x]

As promised, I will respond

Greetings and welcome. I will be right to the point. So far bugs of Hallownest have been accepted as real bugs instead of some kind of bug people. But the fact that they are not anything like real bugs calls this notion into question. First of all, the reason why they are accepted as bug-sized is because of their overall bug theme, even though going purely by names without anything to compare is nothing more than an assumption. Doubly so when one considers that the reason why Team Cherry went for such a theme is just that it would be easy. This is further evidenced by other discrepancies such as nails, which are nothing alike actual nails despite the name. This naming theme is consistent throughout the game.

Sure, naming consistency is very bad in the game relative to real life, but it doesn't mean we can simply ignore it. I will proceed with more important points though.

Besides naming, there are also many inconsistencies among people of Hallownest as well. While some inconsistencies are given as this is a game, there are also some glaring ones. Mythical creatures such as Wyrms aside, the ancient bugs (emphasize on the bug part) as a whole differ from the current bugs merely by size. There are multiple examples of these:
-snip-
We can see that ancient bugs are consistently bigger than current bugs, more than what is possible in real life.

Prehistoric bugs did grow several times bigger than their real life counterparts. For example, the ancient dragonflies had a wingspan of 71.12 cm while current maximum sized dragonflies reach 12cm at most. So bugs have been way bigger than the bugs here in question. If we scale up the hallownest bugs and scale the giant bugs up from them we can get similar sized. Additionally this is all fantasy in the end, we can only apply so much real life logic here.

In turn, that also means that we can't accept any size as an actual bug in the game.

As I said, I don't see why

Such massive beings aren't exclusive to the past either. Bardoon is incomparably bigger than most beings in Hallownest and he is a caterpillar.

Bardoon is something special.
"Don't mistake. I am not a wyrm... Ohrm... Too small, I am. Too many limbs. No foresight like those old things."
He is clearly related to wyrms but isn't a wyrm himself. This means he is very much not a caterpillar but is, in fact, supernatural.

And while not a massive being, Grimm isn't any kind of bug, even having a bat form that's smaller than the Knight.

He isn't a bug (are we sure actually? He very much looks like a Rogue Moth, he even comes out of a coccoon in the end) but there's no proof that he is a straight up bat either. Unless he is a rogue moth, he is some unknown entity that we cannot judge as a known animal.

By now, it should be evident that comparing actual bugs to the bugs of Hallownest is completely meaningless.

Thing is, I agree with this, that's why the currently accepted size for the Knight is 26.4 cm and I am changing it to 29cm with my current CRT.
This effectively means that we already do not compare them to real bugs so I don't see an issue here. The issue comes with your following here.

So what do we do? Easy, we compare actual bugs to actual bugs and other things we can be sure of when it comes to size. We actually do it currently to some extent. I will go over it and all the other points:


1) Rain in City of Tears: As we can see in the city, rain appears to be comparable to normal rain humans experience. We even currently use the size of an average raindrop to find the size of the Knight. While this appears contrary to what I said, it actually proves that even when using pixelscaling actual bug-sized Hallownest Bugs is nonsense. And once we know that they are not bug-sized, there is no need to go the extra mile by pixelscaling as being called bugs was what made them bug-sized in this site, to begin with.

Pixelscaling is the basis of loads of scaling and if we see raindrops fall we should also be able to scale em.

2) Delicate Flowers: There are also Delicate Flowers, which are actual flowers while being smaller than the bugs. Similar to the previous point, the game takes liberties with the art but either way, the sight can be compared to that of a normal human holding a flower when both a flower and a bug are side by side.

you're also ignoring that full blooming delicate flowers are, in fact, easily half the size of the Knight.

3) Lumaflies: Now, here comes the actual bugs I previously mentioned. The first one of them is lumaflies. These guys are scattered across the game and appear in multiple roles, such as companions in the Knight's Lantern or as enemies in Teacher's Achieves. They don't display any sentience and appear as real bugs, being far smaller than HK bugs.

The smallest of them end up fitting the real bug category, but if we were to pixelscale them we'd end up with results similar to the ones I have currently accepted, the Knight being about a foot tall.

4) Geo: This is the primary currency of Hallownest. What many people don't know is that, it is also fossilized bugs. This fact doesn't show up in the game but it is backed up both by the Manual and Wanderer's Journal.

sure

5) Quirrel Prequel: Real bugs are seen in the comics decipting Quirrel as well and this is by far the most clear and decisive image of them we have seen.

ok

Alongside this, there is another reason why I didn't mention this point until now. Because Quirrel says something interesting here:


"Out here, only the simplest adapt, those who bear no burden of mind."


This is important because it helps us to make a distinction between actual bugs and Hallownest Bugs. We know that at some point in the past, Pale King granted bugs sapience:


Under palest watch, you taught, we changed, base instincts were redeemed - Elegy to Hallownest

The Wyrm becomes beacon, minds expanded, to yield, to devote - White Palace Lore Tablet


Combined with Quirrel's previous line, this implies that Hallownest Bugs were normal bugs in the beginning, both in size and intelligence. It is further evidenced by Teacher's Achieves as Pale King is associated with growth:


KINGLIGHT-EM-GROWTH-INKIND-FLOW-ALLTHINK-ENFIELD


In an unconventional way, Pure Vessel might be an example of this growth. And all things considered, both this and all of the previous points should make it clear that Hallownest Bugs are distinct from actual bugs.

This is a damn good point, problem being, it doesn't stop the bugs from being simply as big as my current calculations put them to.

But there is one more thing I need to mention before finishing. It might be more important than the rest of this write-up combined. That's Hornet's introduction in the kickstarter:


"You may catch glimpses of Hornet during your exploration of Hallownest, although she always seems to be one or two steps ahead of you. If you do manage to catch up with her, be wary! Her needle can cut a bug down from thirty yards."


Thirty yards... It is clearly way bigger than what an actual bug would manage and we can see her maximum effective range during our battle against her. In the second fight, she specifically talks about how she will not hold back so we can tell that what we see during the fight is the said 30 yards.

This has already been shown to have several issues. Sure, you can use these are proper arguments to say that indeed, they aren't just bug sized. What the issue is, is 1, if hornet threw it 30 yards in her fight, hornet would be like 3-4 meters tall. 2, the only other calculation that uses the egg temple throw has a size value very similar to mine as well which I linked in my first size CRT.


Now that I've made a response to the points, let me break it down why they shouldn't go beyond what I have already made.

Let us look at silksong. A few things end up in our sight.
here and here
cattail plants and white roses that are clearly somewhat comparable to Hornet's size. Cattail plants are at most 30cm with ther tail and the bloom of roses of this sort can be about 1.5 to 2.5 inches or an average of 2 inches, that being 5.08 cm. This is also consistent with the whole delicate flower thing as well.
What we can clearly see here is that flowers are still comparable to the characters in question. How big they are can be assumed but we also aren't sure since plants and lifeforms can vary in size a lot. One thing for sure, however, is that even real life stuff is still too large for them to be human-sized.

Then there's the question of fall damage for basically everything. Bugs are lightweight and can float well, that's how our Knight works. If he was human sized and human weighed he'd fall way harder than he does and way faster. Instead, we don't even see much acceleration whenever he jumps off anything and we never see side effects beyond a tiny bit of dust kicking up. If this was something that weighed like a human, they'd at the very least crack the rocks a bit in some of the cases (like the beginning of the game). So we can see that weight works in a different manner here, why should height not follow?

So here is my honest opinion
I think using lifeforms and flowers to size scale HK is wrong. We already see bug size discrepancies in just some of the bugs we know, like a giraffe wevil (Willow), which barely grow to be 5cm at the very most (and that's for males, girls like willoh would be 2-3 times shorter) are somehow some of the biggest bugs in Hallownest, dwarfing bugs that are supposed to be bigger than that, like mantises, dung beetles, whatever caterpillar Marmu is and more.
Flowers and plants can be changed to be bigger to fit a narrative (otherwise mario would be very tiny) so they aren't as reliable as well, not to mention that the plants themselves need to be specifically identified and their size can vary greatly.

Then there's an issue with human scaling. You say to use the most average two-legged enemy - a husk - and make them human-sized. My question is, why not anyone else? What makes them so special? Sure, they are common, but there are countless bugs across hallownest, not just one type. Common husks have different sizes too. I think assigning a bug the size of a human is way too arbitrary here.

I think my calculations method is the most solid option here. Raindrops aren't as constant since they can get smaller due to impact, but one thing we know is that surface tension causes droplets to be a certain size and thus there is a very common size for this specific thing. Basically, it is backed by physics more than anything we have here. Physics are reliable and thus they should be used. Pixel scaling gives us a size that counters the bug size but also counters the arbitrary human size scaling. I think it is the best.

 

[Tural2004]

As promised, I will respond

Sure, naming consistency is very bad in the game relative to real life, but it doesn't mean we can simply ignore it. I will proceed with more important points though.

The main issue is size inconsistency despite name consistency here. And we can ignore it if it doesn't give us anything.

Prehistoric bugs did grow several times bigger than their real life counterparts. For example, the ancient dragonflies had a wingspan of 71.12 cm while current maximum sized dragonflies reach 12cm at most. So bugs have been way bigger than the bugs here in question. If we scale up the hallownest bugs and scale the giant bugs up from them we can get similar sized. Additionally this is all fantasy in the end, we can only apply so much real life logic here.

We wouldn't get similar ratios at all. I can see it for Shade Beast and Ancient Nailsmith. But it is more than pushing it with Green Beast. Colosseum of Fools and Black Egg Temple are so hilariously bigger than the Knight that it is not even worth thinking about. And it doesn't matter whether it is fantasy if we are using real-life values. Heck, the reason I can argue for human-sized bugs in the first place is because this is fantasy.

As I said, I don't see why

I already explained why.

Bardoon is something special.
"Don't mistake. I am not a wyrm... Ohrm... Too small, I am. Too many limbs. No foresight like those old things."
He is clearly related to wyrms but isn't a wyrm himself. This means he is very much not a caterpillar but is, in fact, supernatural.

Nowhere in that quote it does imply that Bardoon is related to them. In fact, he does the opposite. The only reason why one might think he is a Wyrm is because of his size and he dismisses that too. We have no reason to ignore a direct statement when it is stated that he is a caterpillar. Besides, he has this quote too:

"With its like gone, the world is smaller."

He isn't a bug (are we sure actually? He very much looks like a Rogue Moth, he even comes out of a coccoon in the end) but there's no proof that he is a straight up bat either. Unless he is a rogue moth, he is some unknown entity that we cannot judge as a known animal.

He is based on Dracula from Castlevania according to Team Cherry so bats are the closest thing we can compare him to.

This effectively means that we already do not compare them to real bugs so I don't see an issue here.

That's my point as well. But if we don't, then there is no reason to go an extra mile by calculations. The reason why these calls exist in the first place is because of the old assumption about bug-sized HK bugs.

Pixelscaling is the basis of loads of scaling and if we see raindrops fall we should also be able to scale em.

Pixelscaling is very important. I won't deny it. But it is also very inconsistent. It is preferable when another alternative is available.

You're also ignoring that full blooming delicate flowers are, in fact, easily half the size of the Knight.

As you can see during the cutscene with Godseeker, it is nowhere as big as that. This is merely artistic freedom.

The smallest of them end up fitting the real bug category, but if we were to pixelscale them we'd end up with results similar to the ones I have currently accepted, the Knight being about a foot tall.

You certainly wouldn't get human-sized results. But the results wouldn't be as identical to yours as you think either. This is a part of what I meant by artistic freedom. They are clearly meant as actual bugs that are drawn bigger that make it pretty. We can see even smaller bugs when wearing Gathering Swarm and it makes calculations even more different than each other.

This has already been shown to have several issues. Sure, you can use these are proper arguments to say that indeed, they aren't just bug sized. What the issue is, is 1, if hornet threw it 30 yards in her fight, hornet would be like 3-4 meters tall. 2, the only other calculation that uses the egg temple throw has a size value very similar to mine as well which I linked in my first size CRT.

The second point is unusable because we don't know Hornet's throwing point when she launched her needle. And based on the sentences before the "thirty-yard" part of Kickstarter, we can conclude that it is talking about the fight against the Knight.

I am aware of the 3-4 meters problem and that's why I propose human-size instead. It is a compromise between everything we have so far. I don't want to repeat myself but similarly to everything else, this also doesn't fit with others due to artistic freedom. But we can guess the intent here just by gathering points. They are bigger than bugs and big enough to make human-sized throws. Therefore they should be human-sized.

If you still disagree with me, then it raises another issue. As you said, this is a fantasy world. If we don't accept human-size, any given thing here has an unknown size and can only be compared to their real counterpart which would be unreliable. If we have to choose between that and a statement directly from Team Cherry themselves, then 3 meters Hornet makes far more sense than 30 cm Hornet.

Let us look at silksong. A few things end up in our sight.
here and here
cattail plants and white roses that are clearly somewhat comparable to Hornet's size.

I couldn't see the first one but the second one isn't true. Only the roses that are closest to the screen are as big as Hornet which is just a perspective issue. And if you want to bring up real-life plants, then know that the grass in Hollow Knight is called fern. But calculating with that brings wildly different results, making the verse even smaller than it is.

Then there's the question of fall damage for basically everything. Bugs are lightweight and can float well, that's how our Knight works. If he was human sized and human weighed he'd fall way harder than he does and way faster. Instead, we don't even see much acceleration whenever he jumps off anything and we never see side effects beyond a tiny bit of dust kicking up. If this was something that weighed like a human, they'd at the very least crack the rocks a bit in some of the cases (like the beginning of the game). So we can see that weight works in a different manner here, why should height not follow?

This is extremely flawed logic since jumping and landing mechanics are extremely different across different games with no regard to physics. But if we had to bring up physics, weight has no role in fall speed.

So here is my honest opinion
I think using lifeforms and flowers to size scale HK is wrong. We already see bug size discrepancies in just some of the bugs we know, like a giraffe wevil (Willow), which barely grow to be 5cm at the very most (and that's for males, girls like willoh would be 2-3 times shorter) are somehow some of the biggest bugs in Hallownest, dwarfing bugs that are supposed to be bigger than that, like mantises, dung beetles, whatever caterpillar Marmu is and more.
Flowers and plants can be changed to be bigger to fit a narrative (otherwise mario would be very tiny) so they aren't as reliable as well, not to mention that the plants themselves need to be specifically identified and their size can vary greatly.

The fact that there are disrepancies is something I already mentioned. And that's exactly one of reasons why Hollow Knight bugs can't be compared to real bugs.

Then there's an issue with human scaling. You say to use the most average two-legged enemy - a husk - and make them human-sized. My question is, why not anyone else? What makes them so special? Sure, they are common, but there are countless bugs across hallownest, not just one type. Common husks have different sizes too. I think assigning a bug the size of a human is way too arbitrary here.

As it is evident by name, average height of a human is found out by finding the average of humans. So following that line of thought using the most average and common bug should be the closest thing we would have to messure. More importantly, I already said it falls in line with in-game statement as well. The Knight is repeatedly stated to be short while Cloth states that she is big. So the average should be somewhere between these two.

 

[Arceus0x]

We wouldn't get similar ratios at all. I can see it for Shade Beast and Ancient Nailsmith. But it is more than pushing it with Green Beast. Colosseum of Fools and Black Egg Temple are so hilariously bigger than the Knight that it is not even worth thinking about. And it doesn't matter whether it is fantasy if we are using real-life values. Heck, the reason I can argue for human-sized bugs in the first place is because this is fantasy.

Which doesn't counter the fact that they're still bugs. Fantasy bugs are often small too you know. If there's a legitimate way to round up their size then it should be used instead of arbitrary size being assigned.

Nowhere in that quote it does imply that Bardoon is related to them. In fact, he does the opposite. The only reason why one might think he is a Wyrm is because of his size and he dismisses that too. We have no reason to ignore a direct statement when it is stated that he is a caterpillar. Besides, he has this quote too:

He quite literally says he isn't the same as the wyrm because he doesn't have the same size and foresight, meaning that he is a degraded version of a wyrm.
Him being a caterpillar comes from the wanderer's journal - aka - an account of Hallownest from the perspective of an outsider with no deep knowledge of the Wyrm lore.
He is also ancient, with knowledge of PK, Wyrms and has knowledge on dream nail and its affect on the mind. He doesn't eat leaves or anything, he specifically stays in a hole in the earth and lives there, not trying to achieve metamorphosis.
This is completely opposite to the bahavior of an actual catterpillar.

"With its like gone, the world is smaller."

Most likely talks about the fact that the wyrm cannot create any more kingdoms, thus making it smaller by default

He is based on Dracula from Castlevania according to Team Cherry so bats are the closest thing we can compare him to.

If I made a bug and based him on Raiden from MGRR, does that mean he is a robot or cyborg? No, thus, there's no reason to say he is a bat, especially considering he looks nothing like a bat beyond the wings.

That's my point as well. But if we don't, then there is no reason to go an extra mile by calculations. The reason why these calls exist in the first place is because of the old assumption about bug-sized HK bugs.

There is though - accuracy. If something is consistently shown to be small but not bug-sized, it means that it is something in between, and that is where calcs come in.

Pixelscaling is very important. I won't deny it. But it is also very inconsistent. It is preferable when another alternative is available.

It is the most consistent thing here actually. Pixelscaling a raindrop in a cutscene is far more accurate than assinging arbitrary heights to arbitrary bugs.

As you can see during the cutscene with Godseeker, it is nowhere as big as that. This is merely artistic freedom.

It isn't. This one cut off non-fully blooming flower's radius is already the size of TK's head
Literally here

You certainly wouldn't get human-sized results. But the results wouldn't be as identical to yours as you think either. This is a part of what I meant by artistic freedom. They are clearly meant as actual bugs that are drawn bigger that make it pretty. We can see even smaller bugs when wearing Gathering Swarm and it makes calculations even more different than each other.

They are different but not to the extent that you make it out to be. It is the difference between slightly lower than a foot to a foot and a third. Way better than what you suggest, since if we go with husks being human sized we'd end up with most of the cast being over 2-3+ meters tall.

The second point is unusable because we don't know Hornet's throwing point when she launched her needle. And based on the sentences before the "thirty-yard" part of Kickstarter, we can conclude that it is talking about the fight against the Knight.

Ok then, I'll take it you believe in 4 meter tall hornet then.

I am aware of the 3-4 meters problem and that's why I propose human-size instead.

Then don't use this point at all.

It is a compromise between everything we have so far. I don't want to repeat myself but similarly to everything else, this also doesn't fit with others due to artistic freedom. But we can guess the intent here just by gathering points. They are bigger than bugs and big enough to make human-sized throws. Therefore they should be human-sized.

Dumping everything on artistic freedom is a lazy move that will only bring more scrutiny to HK sizes. They were drawn in a way, they were shown in a way. We can only go off based on what we see, and if we dump everything on artistic freedom then might as well nuke any and all things that were gathered from visual feats.

If you still disagree with me, then it raises another issue. As you said, this is a fantasy world. If we don't accept human-size, any given thing here has an unknown size and can only be compared to their real counterpart which would be unreliable. If we have to choose between that and a statement directly from Team Cherry themselves, then 3 meters Hornet makes far more sense than 30 cm Hornet.

Oh hell no. We're going into ridiculous territories here at this point. A statement from TC on a funding site from way before the game released isn't gonna outpreform the simple fact that these characters are visually shown to not be the size of a human.

I couldn't see the first one but the second one isn't true. Only the roses that are closest to the screen are as big as Hornet which is just a perspective issue.

If we look at the bottom flowers, they are still notable compared to hornet. If we pixels scale, we will get results close to the ones currently accepted. Simple as that.

And if you want to bring up real-life plants, then know that the grass in Hollow Knight is called fern. But calculating with that brings wildly different results, making the verse even smaller than it is.

Ferns are an entire species of planets and were even larger in prehistoric times. Heck, the biggest fern in the modern age is 20 meters long.

This is extremely flawed logic since jumping and landing mechanics are extremely different across different games with no regard to physics. But if we had to bring up physics, weight has no role in fall speed.

when the knight falls for a while he ends up picking up speed very slightly and then landing harder than he normally would, but not taking fall damage. This means that they do take into account how weight works in this case.

The fact that there are disrepancies is something I already mentioned. And that's exactly one of reasons why Hollow Knight bugs can't be compared to real bugs.

Yes but that doesn't give us an excuse for 90% of the verse species to be the height of a T-rex or bigger

As it is evident by name, average height of a human is found out by finding the average of humans. So following that line of thought using the most average and common bug should be the closest thing we would have to messure. More importantly, I already said it falls in line with in-game statement as well. The Knight is repeatedly stated to be short while Cloth states that she is big. So the average should be somewhere between these two.

But that still puts the whole verse into a ridiculous size, despite the fact that we're clearly shown that they are not that big, with them being close in size to literal flowers. Using human size, in my opinion, is wank and should not be done since it is extremely arbitrary, far more arbitrary than using something with a nigh-constant size to pixelscale them. Also, if all species have different sizes then the knight is only small from their perspective.

 

[Tural2004]

Which doesn't counter the fact that they're still bugs. Fantasy bugs are often small too you know. If there's a legitimate way to round up their size then it should be used instead of arbitrary size being assigned.

Fantasy bugs are either as small as actual bugs or bug people. That's a similar situation to what we have here and we both agree that they are not as small as actual bugs.

He quite literally says he isn't the same as the wyrm because he doesn't have the same size and foresight, meaning that he is a degraded version of a wyrm.

The first part is what he states but the second part is a total headcanon. Nothing indicates it.

Him being a caterpillar comes from the wanderer's journal - aka - an account of Hallownest from the perspective of an outsider with no deep knowledge of the Wyrm lore.

She doesn't need deep knowledge about Wyrm Lore when she is talking about a caterpillar. Elina muses over many things Hallownest without actually answering them. The fact that she plainly states Bardoon is caterpillar without a regard to his size indicates that she knows what she is talking about.

Most likely talks about the fact that the wyrm cannot create any more kingdoms, thus making it smaller by default

Yes, the "World is smaller" part is about that, but it is "With its like gone" I am talking about. There are no Wyrms or similar creatures. Thus, Bardoon can't be one.

He is also ancient, with knowledge of PK, Wyrms and has knowledge on dream nail and its affect on the mind. He doesn't eat leaves or anything, he specifically stays in a hole in the earth and lives there, not trying to achieve metamorphosis.
This is completely opposite to the bahavior of an actual catterpillar.

How ancient? There are many other characters in Hollow Knight who were alive during the reign of Hallownest. Being old means nothing. And speaking of truly ancient, Bardoon has this line thinking about what death means for an ancient being, guessing about Pale King. The fact that he speaks about Wyrms as foreigners and only guessing about them means he is far from one.

If I made a bug and based him on Raiden from MGRR, does that mean he is a robot or cyborg? No, thus, there's no reason to say he is a bat, especially considering he looks nothing like a bat beyond the wings.

I am merely making comparisons. But if that bug had cybernetic parts, then yeah, it would be a cyborg.

There is though - accuracy. If something is consistently shown to be small but not bug-sized, it means that it is something in between, and that is where calcs come in.

But they are not even shown to be small. In the absence of the "they are bugs" argument, using pixelscaling raindrops is nothing more than nitpicking.

It is the most consistent thing here actually. Pixelscaling a raindrop in a cutscene is far more accurate than assinging arbitrary heights to arbitrary bugs.

No, pixelscaling has never been 100% accurate with anything besides itself. It is just widely used since we don't have any clue about sizes 99% of the time. But it is average humans we are talking about here, not an explosion that's visible from outer space. Those arbitrary numbers you are talking about are what is accepted as common sense nearly in every work of fiction.

It isn't. This one cut off non-fully blooming flower's radius is already the size of TK's head
Literally here

First of all, it is fully bloomed both in its regular state and mantis grave as seen by its petals. The fact that it shows such different sizes can be chalked up to its magical properties. Secondly, it is the same magical properties that can also explain its size. Godseeker even suspects that it is part of something greater.

They are different but not to the extent that you make it out to be. It is the difference between slightly lower than a foot to a foot and a third.

That's a 33% increase which is a way bigger deal than you are thinking of. And it is just a difference between only two different calcs. Now imagine if we calculated with everything available, such as the aforementioned Gather Swarm. Differences would stack and stack. That's why I said pixelscaling is unreliable.

Way better than what you suggest, since if we go with husks being human sized we'd end up with most of the cast being over 2-3+ meters tall.

What is the problem with that? This is a still fantasy world after. Saying "They would be big isn't an argument. Besides, Cloth is already stated to be imposing due to her size. Most of the cast is bigger than her. 2-3+ meters isn't anything special.

Ok then, I'll take it you believe in 4 meter tall hornet then.

Then don't use this point at all.

As I said, I would much rather go for that than 30 cm Hornet.

Dumping everything on artistic freedom is a lazy move that will only bring more scrutiny to HK sizes. They were drawn in a way, they were shown in a way. We can only go off based on what we see, and if we dump everything on artistic freedom then might as well nuke any and all things that were gathered from visual feats.

Lazy or not, I am stating it as it is. Yeah, they were shown in a way, but it is that way I base my argument on since it contradicts itself. That's why I am proposing a compromise.

Oh hell no. We're going into ridiculous territories here at this point. A statement from TC on a funding site from way before the game released isn't gonna outpreform the simple fact that these characters are visually shown to not be the size of a human.

This doesn't change my point. We still have zero clue about the actual size of anything unless we use comparison. And again, it is not exactly reliable. So we literally have zero reason not to use plainly stated size.

If we look at the bottom flowers, they are still notable compared to hornet. If we pixels scale, we will get results close to the ones currently accepted. Simple as that.

And regardless of result, there will still be inconsistencies which will stack with the previous ones. There is also the fact that we don't actually have any information about these flowers.

Ferns are an entire species of planets and were even larger in prehistoric times. Heck, the biggest fern in the modern age is 20 meters long.

What we in game is clearly not tree fern so it is not 20 meters. But if you want to talk about big ferns, then it would support my argument more than yours. However, if your intention was about huge differences between different ferns, then it can be said about anything else.

when the knight falls for a while he ends up picking up speed very slightly and then landing harder than he normally would, but not taking fall damage. This means that they do take into account how weight works in this case.

Getting faster as you fall is only common sense and it is not dependent on weight. Moreover, it still doesn't actually tell us anything about the size of these guys.

Yes but that doesn't give us an excuse for 90% of the verse species to be the height of a T-rex or bigger

It does when we are talking about a fantasy world with nothing to condradict. Lore might actually support that but it is another can of worms. But beyond that, I already said how even someone like Cloth is assumed to be very big. Someone like False Knight is described as gargantuan. People bigger than Cloth being 2-3 meters isn't really anything weird. This is the same for the rest of your argument.

 

[Tural2004]

By the way, it is late here so I will probably be continuing this tomorrow night.

 

[Arceus0x]

By the way, it is late here so I will probably be continuing this tomorrow night.

ooh, same, I'll reply tomorrow. GN

 

[Tural2004]

ooh, same, I'll reply tomorrow. GN

GN

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

If I could have a TLDR summary, I may be able to help.

 

[Tural2004]

If I could have a TLDR summary, I may be able to help.

The only argument for bug-sized Hallownest is their bug theme without actual evidence. There are also many things contradicting their name such as nails. Ancient Bugs are extremely bigger than current bugs, which makes average bug size hilariously inconsistent to accept any of them as bugs. This inconsistency exists in the current time too. There are also multiple real bugs in the game to compare that are actually real bug-sized compared to the main cast, alongside other small-scale things such as rain.

Lastly, the only statement involving size (in numbers) in the entire Hollow Knight verse is from Kickstarter where it states that Hornet can strike someone from 30 yards, which makes them far bigger than bugs.

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

There are also multiple real bugs in the game to compare that are actually real bug-sized compared to the main cast, alongside other small-scale things such as rain.

You realize bugs smaller than our traditional normally visible bugs exist right?

 

[Blackcurrant91]

I heavily disagree with assuming human sized. I am okay with not assuming bug sized by default but I still think it should be attempted to pixel scale them to something. Considering the scales of bugs can seemingly be slightly larger then what is technically possible IRL, they are clearly still bugs and the game HEAVILY implies what is going on is on a small scale.

The best argument is the Team Cherry statement and I think this can be thrown out as just entirely inconstent with what is like you know...shown in the actual game.

 

[Tural2004]

You realize bugs smaller than our traditional normally visible bugs exist right?

I do, but it is not enough to justify the scales visible in the game. And I also explained how Hallownest Bugs come from normal bugs and how the current accepted size contradicts the only canonical number we have been given.

I heavily disagree with assuming human sized. I am okay with not assuming bug sized by default but I still think it should be attempted to pixel scale them to something. Considering the scales of bugs can seemingly be slightly larger then what is technically possible IRL, they are clearly still bugs and the game HEAVILY implies what is going on is on a small scale.

Human-sized is what is the default in nearly every verse in the absence of counter-evidence. And the said counter-evidence is mute here. They are not just slightly bigger than real bugs. The currently accepted size for the Knight, who is repeatedly shown to be small compared to many bugs, is 29 cm which is extremely rarely encountered in the modern age in the form of the biggest bugs. Even in-game, Hallownest bugs are absolutely massive compared to real bugs.

The best argument is the Team Cherry statement and I think this can be thrown out as just entirely inconstent with what is like you know...shown in the actual game

Unless you start nitpicking, it doesn't contradict anything. I already showed how they experience many things as humans do such as rain and interaction with actual bugs. Trying to pixel-scale is just trying to look for an excuse for small size. Pixel-scaling raindrops of all things is the said nitpicking, and if we try to use sizes of other bugs as real bugs, bugs consistently contradict their real counterparts compared to each other.

Besides, Hornet statement is the only thing with actually stated size. Even if you ignore what I just said above and we go the opposite direction, then we can't compare things to their real counterparts and things can't contradict fantasy world objects with no known sizes.

It is a dead end for bug-sized argument either way.

 

[Tural2004]

Bump

 

[Arceus0x]

Forgot about this, will reply later today