Hax Teenaged 8-B Characters: Misogi Kumagawa vs Kakeru Satsuki

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Indeed.

 

[PaChi2]

Voting inconclusive then.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Cool, 1 for inconclusive.

 

[Unforgiven0815]

Kumagawa for me.

 

[Mr._Common_Sense]

This feels like a heavy Inconclusive with a side of NLF.

Honestly, it more peering off reaction time of who can activate their powers first. How long did it take Kakeru to find the future where Lieselotte die? Did it happen upon several seconds, minutes, or instantly? It is noted on Kakeru profile that "Eye of Aeon that he used continuously, he kept fighting against Lieselotte and dodging her deadly attacks for several minutes."

^Hint the word "mintues" unless under Kakeru's vision all this happen let's say on reasonable stand-point an attosecond, but on the outside it was minutes. I'd like definite scans or proof of this.

However, if not and we are taking "minutes" at actual face value compared to his data on Supersonic speed. This means Kumagawa takes the win in activation speed. Not only adding the fact he outclasses in Hypersonic speed alone above Kakeru's but, Kumagawa has shown to be able to activate his ability under instant circumstances via erasing time to zero.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Minutes isn't really a correct timeframe, as for one there was no stated timeframe or anything just an assumption, two kakeru's abilities is dependent on how much of his soul he gives to the eye, he initially wasn't much of a match for liselotte, and didn't even fully comprehend how his abilities even worked, then got trapped in lieselotte's phantasmagoria which created an illusory world which mind screwed him, he at that point stopped caring that the eye would consume his soul, got pissed and gave the eye everything, which allowed him to break out of the illusion, it is from there he has full knowledge of what the eye can do and what not.

Lieselotte's immortality was due to the demonic stone which had limitless power, nlf i know, and was unbreakable or something like that, even lieslotte's soul being split into 7 different pieces and sent to 7 different parallel worlds which was supposed to erase it from existence didn't do jack to it.

So basically kakeru then due to his future shenanigans decided on futures in which nothing is unbreakable or immortal, which is how he killed liesolotte. But as a result he is screwed cause the eye consumes his soul, so basically even if he wins a fight, he will die in the end.

9-A kakeru is the one who only thinks his power is precog, 8-B kakeru is the one who knows it's future manipulation, and is a match of lieselotte basically.

 

[GoldenScorpions]

The "several minutes" thing is an assumption on how long the fight against Lieselotte lasted, but he didn't have the "**** everything, go full power" attitude at that point. He was just using the Eye for precog to dodge attacks there. Basically, it's an estimated time period during "Part A" of the fight.

In "Part B", when he unleashed everything, the activation, future prediction/manipulation and all the good stuff were pretty much instantaneous. He saw the infinite futures, saw the one in which Lieselotte would die from his attack, selected it and applied it to the present.

 

[Mr._Common_Sense]

@Celestial Pegasus and GoldenScorpions

Thank you both for the critical input on Kakeru's match against Lieselotte. In that being said my vote goes to Inconclusive due to the fact both characters seem to be able to activate their abilities in an instantenous degree.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

2 for inconclusive.

 

[RM97]

Bump

 

[RM97]

Shouldn't Kakeru technically get Regenerationn Negation/Power Nullification due to picking a future where Lieselotte didn't have her Regen???

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Yes.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

So he does this by manipulating and seeing the future? Well that's not hard for Kumagawa to counter. Kumagawa erases time, there by both speed Blitzing and rendering Kakeru's hax useless since No Time = No Future. He seals him with Book Maker during his erased time and erases him from there

 

[RM97]

That's out of Character for Kumagawa to even do that. Especially in a no prep no knowledge random serious fight like this. His entire trope is blitzing people and impaling them with screws first and then using his All-Fiction to change cause and effect. And with Speed Equalized here, Its whoever attacks first in which case Kakeru can see with precog and nullify Kumagawa's All-Fiction.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

Not really. When Kumagawa couldn't blitz otherwise he erased time. Kumagawa doesn't really follow that order when he is against a more serious apponent. Sure he goes for screws first usually, but he also ******* erases peoples existence or the concept on which peoples powers are based when the time called. Kumagawa will be the one attacking first since he has his time erasure which is essentially Psuedo-time stop. About his precog:

1) He needs to see the future to pre-cog and nullify right? No Time = No Future.

2) Minus cannot be nullified

3) Book Maker bypasses defensive hax

 

[RM97]

That's not the case tho. It's basically whoever attacks first and hence, you can't assume Kumagawa will be the one attacking first because I can say Kakeru can attack right off the bat and pick a future where All Fiction isn't available to Kumagawa.

From what I heard, his power nullification is more along the lines of using Probability Manipulation and picking one out of infinite possibilities/futures where the enemy doesn't have the said ability. So unless you are acausal or have resistance to probability/fate manip, resistance to power null shouldn't be of much help. But I digress since I don't know much about Kakeru.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

That's not the case tho. It's basically whoever attacks first and hence, you can't assume Kumagawa will be the one attacking first because I can say Kakeru can attack right off the bat and pick a future where All Fiction isn't available to Kumagawa.
From what I heard, his power nullification is more along the lines of using Probability Manipulation and picking one out of infinite possibilities/futures where the enemy doesn't have the said ability. So unless you are acausal or have resistance to probability/fate manip, resistance to power null shouldn't be of much help. But I digress since I don't know much about Kakeru.

If speed is equalised then Kumagawa's ability to blitz even with speed equalised due to time erasure means he will be attacking first. I don't see your point

And here in lies the wonderful thing about Minus. The ability is bound to the person and personality; so long as Kumagawa is Kumagawa he will have All Fiction and Book Maker. His time erasure will grant him just that

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

No idea why you think misogi will get to attack first when all both characters need is a thought to activate their abilities.

Minus is irrelevant here, unless you can show me evidence of misogi being acausal.

 

[Catman1132000]

I vote for Misogi because with All Fiction he can just declare the Eye of Aeon doesn't exist, and even if Kakeru does somehow stop him, Misogi has causality manipulation so he can negate the future that Kakeru would create. It comes down toThe fact that even though the Eye can foresee pretty much anything, it can't really work when your opponent has immense power nullification, pseudo-teleportation, and can erase you from existance at any time. With his causality and reality warping powers, there isn't really a way to keep Misogi from getting in, or to stop him from landing the blow that can make Kakeru cease to exist. Even with Kakeru Regenerationn negation, it can't stop Misogi from coming back, as he can just resurrect at will with All Fiction. In the end, there is no way to stop someone who can move instantly, knows every weak-point in the human body, and can erase you from existance instantly.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

"I vote for Misogi because with All Fiction he can just declare the Eye of Aeon doesn't exist, and even if Kakeru does somehow stop him, Misogi has causality manipulation so he can negate the future that Kakeru would create"

The future he creates is from among an infinite amount of possibilities that exist for the future, in short if misogi isn't acausal, kakeru kills him.

"The fact that even though the Eye can foresee pretty much anything, it can't really work when your opponent has immense power nullification, pseudo-teleportation, and can erase you from existance at any time."

Kakeru has just as good of an ability if not better since it's uber fate manipulation which works on the scale of infinite possibilities.

"With his causality and reality warping powers, there isn't really a way to keep Misogi from getting in, or to stop him from landing the blow that can make Kakeru cease to exist. Even with Kakeru Regenerationn negation, it can't stop Misogi from coming back, as he can just resurrect at will with All Fiction. In the end, there is no way to stop someone who can move instantly, knows every weak-point in the human body, and can erase you from existance instantly."

Kakeru killed someone with mid godly regen who even after having their souls split and sent to 7 different parallel worlds which should have erased them from existence, did nothing. Also would still live even if all life on earth was completly obliterated, mind, body, soul, spirit, and erased from existence. Misogi stays dead.

Also again both characters have ways of wining but since they will both use their abilities when the fight starts, it's inconclusive imo.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Hmm.... The thing is, as far as I understand it, Kakeru could kill the person with mid-godly only because a future in which that person didn't have that regen existed to begin with.

So it isn't that he can simply negate the Regenerationn of anyone he meets in battle (which makes putting Regenerationn negation on his page kinda questionable), but can only do so if a future exists in which his opponent loses his Regenerationn. That isn't something that is the case per default.


So what we would have to think about is whether or not there exists anything in this battle, no matter how inpropable that is, that could cause Kumagawas power to fail.

On the neutral battlefield that is assumed for matchups I can not imagine something that would would accomplish having that effect.

Hence I don't think a future without All Fiction is amongst the ones Kakeru can choose.


The interesting question would be if there is a scenario in which Kumagawa looses even though All Fiction does work. I don't remember if he was ever incapacitated in the manga, or something.

For now I would give it to Kumagawa on the basis that I can't think up a chain of events leading to a different conclusion.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

No idea why you think misogi will get to attack first when all both characters need is a thought to activate their abilities.
Minus is irrelevant here, unless you can show me evidence of misogi being acausal.

I was using blitzing more in reference to his usage of the term to desribe Kumagawa's tendency to run up and impale his opponents with Screws or Book Maker

Minus cannot be nullified by causality manipulation. If they could, then Raph Raphelsia would have ended up nullified but it couldn't be

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Already been over this, liselotte's immortal is due to the demonic stone which gives her "limitless power", nlf i know, and is unbreakable, in addition to her immortality. The future is a myriad of the infinite, hence kakeru decided on a future in which nothing is immortal or unbreakable, no matter how improbable, no matter how wildly fantastical, no matter how impossible, it was.

In the future exists endless possibilities, unless kumagawa is somehow acausal i fail to see how kakeru's ability doesn't work, resistance to causality manipulation isn't the same as being acausal.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

Ok cool. Doesn't change the fact that there is no future if there is no time

Lest I checked, this wiki changed the rules that accausality exists in levels and is essentially the same as resistence to causality manipulation. Either way what context are you refering to accausality?

 

[Creaturemaster971]

So that was a lot of reading.

Definitely going Inconclusive. Too many really good arguments for either side.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

@Iaptius Still not a legit argument cause that assumes misogi gets his ability off first which as i have said multiple times, neither character will.

And don't think just resisting causality manipulation would mean you're acausal though, it's not stated on the acuasality page, but someone can feel free to correct me if i am wrong.

From what has been said here is that misogi's abilities can't be nullified cause even his own causality manipulation can't destroy them. Now this is a pretty good ability, but we are dealing with 2 different abilities here, one is causality manipulation, the other is future manipulation, they work differently. This is like saying atomic manipulation doesn't work on someone who has resisted existence erasure.

Now if this was just power nullification then i would say yeah it won't work cause not even an application causality manipulation to nullify his abilities has worked, however kakeru's ability isn't power nullification, nor is it causality manipulation, it's future manipulation, and not just ordinary future manipulation but future manipulation which works off infinite possibilities, to make the impossible happen.

 

[RM97]

I feel like Kumagawa time erasure works as the same as Diavolo's King Crimson Time Skip. Erases the Cause & Keeps the effect.

 

[Creaturemaster971]

It more just gives him instantaneous travel speed and reaction time. Basically boosts him up to infinite speed because no movement has technically taken place.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

You gonna add my vote btw?

And in that case, its the ability that trumps the other. No time = No future

I remember it was on one of the highlighted posts a while back that they had come to a discision

Other power manipulation has failed aswell. I see, so it works by manipulating the future and not causality.

cool, but no time = no future

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

He still has to activate the ability first though, which is why i was saying it makes no difference here, unless the ability is passive or something.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

Don't know if this has been brought up yet, but does Kakeru even know he's there?

Misogi erased his presence and it never came back.

 

[Creaturemaster971]

Well, people can still see and hear Kumagawa, they just can't feel his physical presence unless he directly touches them.

e.g. No sensing his aura or body heat, or feeling his vibrations

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

Put it like this, these are the events in order.

1) Battle Starts

2) Both activate abilities. One Erases time, the other manipulates the future

[time is halted for Kumagawa, and can act and use Book Maker. The actions here can neither be seen via precog nor manipulated via the future manipulation]

3) The future that was set in place happens, or it would have been. But he since he was sealed by Book Maker the ability doesn't work

So in a nutshell, even if Kakeru set the future an atosecond out, Kumagawa is acting in a frame that technically has no future, and will always take place before whatever future was tried to set. Thus even in the infinite futures he sees, they will have no baring on what happens within that erased time

[you better be adding the Kumagawa votes]

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

You're still assuming the time erase happens first, even though both abilities happen at the same time. For example battle starts one stops time, the other erases ppl from existence, which is faster? Would the time stop be faster than the existence erasure even though both happen at the exact same time?

We have no way to determine such a thing, it's the same as any other inconclusive match.

But sure i will add your vote for misogi.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

Actually No. I'm assuming it will take effect first.

Future manipulation, by its nature, only effects the future and when the present of that future once it is reached. Time Erasure is an ability that works in the present, and only in the present.

So even if they are activated at the same time, Time Erasure is an ability of the present and His Eyes are an ability of the future. Which happens first? Well the present of course

good.

 

[Creaturemaster971]

Changing my vote to Kumagawa for Iapitus's reasons

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

@Iapitus Now i think this is mental gymnastics.

Kakeru's ability makes the infinite possibilities of the future become the present, it affects the present so no idea where you got the idea that it only effects the future from, and it's not when the present of that future is reached, it's the other way round, the future becomes that present, instantly, there is waiting for the present to be the future.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

Why do I think he effects the future only? because its future manipulation.

The future only becomes the present once it is reached. So are you claiming he has time skip or something? because that's what you make it sound like now

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

No i am saying he activates his ability and the future becomes the present, you made it sound as if there is some time lag for his ability or something. Like he needs to wait a minute or something for the future to become the present.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

What I'm saying is, even if it is the smallest of time frames beyond even human understanding, there is still a slight difference between when future becomes present. So Time Erasure takes effect, how ever small that time frame is, before the future becomes present.