High-Universal Black Clover

[BlackAstaSenpai]

Black Clover should be High-Universal. I thought it was silly when I first heard the arguments and laughed it off. This is probably going to be one of the most controversial posts on the Black Clover page, as this will sound crazy to many people. But something "sounding crazy" isn't really relevant as long as it is factually supported. So please consider all of the evidence.

The evidence for Black Clover being High-Universal stems from the fact that it was stated and affirmed that Glamour World is an infinite-sized realm. And because creation feats can be scaled to attack potency, this would make Dorothy and anyone who scales to/above her as High-Universal. But before proving that her creation feat should scale to her AP as considered by this wiki's standards, I'll provide you with the evidence that shows that Glamour World is infinite in size:

While in Glamour World, the conversation goes as follows...

Luck says: "This place... There's no border. It's endless."

Magna says: "Huh? Luck, you moron. That's not even possible."

Reve (elf-Dorothy) responds to Luck and Magna by saying: "Here in Glamour World....The impossible is possible. It's all the way I want it to be."

Luck is notorious for having some of the best mana-sensory abilities in the series. So his credibility holds weight. Magna questions the impossibility of this being an infinite-sized spell. But Reve affirms the infinite size by stating "Here in Glamour world.... the impossible is possible." This means we have one statement by a credible character calling the spell infinite, and another statement by the creator of said spell affirming it. This is sufficient evidence that Glamour World is infinite in size.

Many will try and argue that the definition that Luck intended for "endless" was "Very big", as an alternate definition for endless is "Something seeming to have no end or border." But using that context makes no sense for the discussion. Magna clearly took Luck's intended definition of Endless as the "infinite" one. Or else he wouldn't have called it impossible to be true. And besides, Reve affirmed the "impossible" portion of what they were arguing about. So via a preponderance of evidence, Glamour World is an infinite-sized realm. Further support for this is that one of the creatures that Dorothy creates can seemingly eat or has a galaxy inside of it. Even if Glamour World wasn't Infinite there are many stars in the background which would make it 4-A.

Now of course there are standards that need to be met for creation of pocket-dimensions to scale to a characters AP/stats.

• There should be evidence or a well detailed explanation that a pocket dimension was created, and not simply an illusion or teleportation to another location.

The first standard is met. As while in Glamour World, Sally calls the spell a world and says it's the biggest spell that a mage could create. This means that Dorothy/Reve does actually create Glamour World, not just teleporting them there. Also, when Reve and Dorothy Clash, Glamour World is destroyed. Yet days later Dorothy is still shown to be able to use Glamour World. This means that she was able to recreate it. This is repeated again, as Yami would destroy Glamour World in the Anime-Canon, yet she could use it against Moris in the manga. We know that Glamour World isn't just an illusion, as Megicula's forbidden curses are not effective in Glamour World because it is stated to be a separate space.

• There should be some reason to consider the backgrounds stars, not just painted decorations within a throne room or museum.

I'd argue that the second standard isn't really that important to the argument since the realm is infinite. But, the stars in Glamour World are shown to twinkle, gleam, and glow in the anime. Which provides evidence that the stars aren't just "painted" in her realm.

• Even though there is concrete evidence for pocket reality creations to qualify as an Attack Potency feat; it should not be assumed to scale to physical statistics without some notable scaling reasons. Examples include on screen demonstrations, examples of destruction, or information that the same pool of energy used to create said dimension can translate to the same amount of energy being used for other abilities including but not limited to physical strikes.

The third standard is also met. As Dorothy/Reve uses mana to create Glamour World, which is the same pool of energy she would use to enhance her stats. Also, the same pool of energy that other characters use to fight her. When Reve first uses Glamour World, she opens her grimoire, and says "Dream Magic: Glamour World". This is proof that it is her spell. Mana is used to create spells. Drowa, Sally, and Magna all refer to Glamour world as a spell. All proving that it was made by mana. It's further backed up when heroes force Reve to spawn Dorothy, and the two duke it out. The clash of their dreams proves to be too much for the infinite realm and destroys it.


So basically anyone who scales to or above Reve/Dorothy in the elf-arc and beyond would have High 3-A AP and Durability. That's a lot of characters so don't really need to start listing them off.

 

[Shmeatywerbenmanjenson]

This is gonna be fun to watch

 

[BlackAstaSenpai]

This is gonna be fun to watch

Agreed.

 

[The_Alxhemist]

Where's the punchline?

 

[BlackAstaSenpai]

Where's the punchline?

Where's the refutation?

 

[Veronica]

Wrong section move it to fun and games

 

[Deceived3596]

@CloverDragon03 So at what time and date are you doing the flip

 

[Livinmeme]

VS debaters when they are forced to do an argument instead of making fun of the argument without any argument

 

[Livinmeme]

No seriously atleast post some debunks instead of ¨uh black clover can't be High 3-A because... it can't okay?¨

 

[BlackAstaSenpai]

No seriously atleast post some debunks instead of ¨uh black clover can't be High 3-A because... it can't okay?¨

Exactly. I'd be fine with it NOT being 3-A if this isn't actually sound.

 

[Shmeatywerbenmanjenson]

Eh, I suppose It's funny because it's such an outlier to other feats in black clover. Also the stars in Glamour world seem to be more-so a decoration like tinsel or some other object that emits sparkles, The name "Glamour World" Kind off alludes to it. There really doesn't seem to be much evidence pointing to the fact that they are actually stars other than the fact that it's a sparkly background.

 

[Livinmeme]

Eh, I suppose It's funny because it's such an outlier to other feats in black clover. Also the stars in Glamour world seem to be more-so a decoration like tinsel or some other object that emits sparkles, The name "Glamour World" Kind off alludes to it. There really doesn't seem to be much evidence pointing to the fact that they are actually stars other than the fact that it's a sparkly background.

No.... we aren't doing the ¨Galatic objects in the sky are paint because [CENSORED]¨ that was alredy debunked the moment sephiroth got into tier 4 and beyond (and look how much time has sephiroth been in that tier¨. Atleast i can buy that is an outlier

 

[BlackAstaSenpai]

Eh, I suppose It's funny because it's such an outlier to other feats in black clover. Also the stars in Glamour world seem to be more-so a decoration like tinsel or some other object that emits sparkles, The name "Glamour World" Kind off alludes to it. There really doesn't seem to be much evidence pointing to the fact that they are actually stars other than the fact that it's a sparkly background.

Would need to provide evidence as to why this would be an outlier? She creates Glamour World multiple times.

While I accept that as a possible interpretation, the way they are portrayed on screen look more like stars than something like that. Especially with how they are spaced out.

 

[Shmeatywerbenmanjenson]

No.... we aren't doing the ¨Galatic objects in the sky are paint because [CENSORED]¨ that was alredy debunked the moment sephiroth got into tier 4 and beyond (and look how much time has sephiroth been in that tier¨. Atleast i can buy that is an outlier

I'm not saying that there paint, I'm saying that there any number of things it can be other than stars, be it sparkling dust or magical energy or otherwise.


Nothing in this alludes to stars or anything other than a sparkling background, and definitely not enough to qualify as stars in my opinion

 

[Livinmeme]

I'm not saying that there paint, I'm saying that there any number of things it can be other than stars, be it sparkling dust or magical energy or otherwise.


Nothing in this alludes to stars or anything other than a sparkling background, and definitely not enough to qualify as stars in my opinion

That looks like a nebula...

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

There should be a case study that investigates VSB, and their constant urge to putting threads they disagree with, but can’t argue with into fun & games, to the amount of people that dislike this site as a whole but can’t understand why.

 

[Sniper670]

Tbh this is a bit hard to argue against, but it's funny how much of a jump in tiers this is.

What she does is clearly beyond the capabilities of the verse, even the current strongest........

So yes, scaling this to anyone is most unwise.

 

[Damage3245]

As Dorothy/Reve uses mana to create Glamour World, which is the same pool of energy she would use to enhance her stats. Also, the same pool of energy that other characters use to fight her. When Reve first uses Glamour World, she opens her grimoire, and says "Dream Magic: Glamour World". This is proof that it is her spell. Mana is used to create spells. Drowa, Sally, and Magna all refer to Glamour world as a spell. All proving that it was made by mana. It's further backed up when heroes force Reve to spawn Dorothy, and the two duke it out. The clash of their dreams proves to be too much for the infinite realm and destroys it.

This doesn't look like sufficient proof for Universal AP to me.

Where's the evidence that (even if we accept she could make an infinite pocket dimension) that this would translate proportionally to a a Universal level of strength / AP?

In the scan for them destroying it, it doesn't look like AP is even a factor in it being destroyed.

 

[Veronica]

This doesn't look like sufficient proof for Universal AP to me.

Where's the evidence that (even if we accept she could make an infinite pocket dimension) that this would translate proportionally to a a Universal level of strength / AP?

In the scan for them destroying it, it doesn't look like AP is even a factor in it being destroyed.

Also there is no narrative implication that she can destroy a universe. Here ability seems more like hax than AP.

 

[Veronica]

This doesn't look like sufficient proof for Universal AP to me.

Where's the evidence that (even if we accept she could make an infinite pocket dimension) that this would translate proportionally to a a Universal level of strength / AP?

In the scan for them destroying it, it doesn't look like AP is even a factor in it being destroyed.

I forgot to mention if she has universal AP. Why isn't she mentioned to be the strongest character? She would literally be Saitama in here verse. Blinking everyone out of existence with here "universal" AP. Unless Yami has universal durability and now Dante has universal AP, because it's clear he is above here. Its's silly that a character that is supposedly infinitely more powerful than the entire verse combined has no narrative impact, but there is a simple answer she isn't.

 

[KingTempest]

I forgot to mention if she has universal AP. Why isn't she mentioned to be the strongest character? She would literally be Saitama in here verse. Blinking everyone out of existence with here "universal" AP. Unless Yami has universal durability and now Dante has universal AP, because it's clear he is above here. Its's silly that a character that is supposedly infinitely more powerful than the entire verse combined has no narrative impact, but there is a simple answer she isn't.

"Because everyone has universal AP"

 

[PsychoWarper]

Are there like any other feats that even come close to this level of AP besides this single spell in the entire series? This seems like an insane outlier even if we accept this directly scales to her AP and Durability. Afaik none of the Top tiers who are superior to Dorthy have even Tier 5 or 4 feats let alone tier 3 feats.

 

[Reio35]

Prove luck can sense a infinity. Seems like he's making a assumption. Endless is also a hyperbolic term

 

[BlackAstaSenpai]

This doesn't look like sufficient proof for Universal AP to me.

Where's the evidence that (even if we accept she could make an infinite pocket dimension) that this would translate proportionally to a a Universal level of strength / AP?

In the scan for them destroying it, it doesn't look like AP is even a factor in it being destroyed.

Literally shows in the scan provided that their dreams were too much for Glamour World and destroyed it. Also, it meets the standard as provided.

Examples include on screen demonstrations, examples of destruction, or information that the same pool of energy used to create said dimension can translate to the same amount of energy being used for other abilities including but not limited to physical strikes.

She's using the same universal energy system that created Glamour World to enhance physical stats.

 

[BlackAstaSenpai]

Tbh this is a bit hard to argue against, but it's funny how much of a jump in tiers this is.

What she does is clearly beyond the capabilities of the verse, even the current strongest........

So yes, scaling this to anyone is most unwise.

Not true. Since other people have defeated her and destroyed her Glamour World (Yami, Moris) then that means other characters scale above her.

 

[BlackAstaSenpai]

Also there is no narrative implication that she can destroy a universe. Here ability seems more like hax than AP.

AP =/ DC. Explain why it is hax and not AP.

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

I agree

 

[BlackAstaSenpai]

I forgot to mention if she has universal AP. Why isn't she mentioned to be the strongest character? She would literally be Saitama in here verse. Blinking everyone out of existence with here "universal" AP. Unless Yami has universal durability and now Dante has universal AP, because it's clear he is above here. Its's silly that a character that is supposedly infinitely more powerful than the entire verse combined has no narrative impact, but there is a simple answer she isn't.

This is not sound reasoning. Everyone relevant in BC is essentially upscaled from the 6-C calc that stemmed from Demon Licht and Lumiere. Characters who are complete fodder in the verse as of now. Lucifero >>> Demon licht, even though Lucifero has no comparable calculable feat. But Lucifero is upscaled from said feat because he obviously scales way higher. Just because a character earlier in a series has a strong feat absolutely doesn't mean they're the strongest. Dorothy does have a narrative impact. She's able to convey Megicula's curse, which lead to essentially everything happening in the spade saga, simply because she can make a space that exists outside of the physical realm. Nothing you've said has any merit that debunks the original post.

 

[BlackAstaSenpai]

"Because everyone has universal AP"

"I quoted something, that means it's wrong"

 

[BlackAstaSenpai]

Are there like any other feats that even come close to this level of AP besides this single spell in the entire series? This seems like an insane outlier even if we accept this directly scales to her AP and Durability. Afaik none of the Top tiers who are superior to Dorthy have even Tier 5 or 4 feats let alone tier 3 feats.

The fact that she can recreate Glamour World many times, and several characters have also destroyed it would just display its consistency. Something I left out of the post is that Patry, Dante, Lilith, and Naamah all have statements that imply they have infinite mana which can also act as supporting evidence.

 

[Arkenis]

For feats like these I look to three things that justify the validity of the feat.

Lore: So what is Dorothy’s lore? Is Dorothy stated to be special in terms of magic output? Is she implied to have infinite Mana?

Scaling: Is there anyone who has shown stamina issues but have scaling to be above her exist? If yes then this means there is some sort of inconsistency on the author’s part or misinterpretation from the reader that makes it all fall apart. Are there characters that seem amazed by the feat but have scaling above the character? Then this means the feat is amazing for another reason that isn’t ap based.

Acknowledgement: If the feat is impressive then some acknowledgement of the character being above other characters must be stated or implied, otherwise the feat is not ap based.


If these aren’t met then I generally write the feat off as creation hax, there isn’t enough concreteness to justify it i.e too many aspects of it can be interpreted in different ways that make it become a battle of interpretations which at the end boil down to nothing.

 

[BlackAstaSenpai]

Prove luck can sense a infinity. Seems like he's making a assumption. Endless is also a hyperbolic term

I already tackled this notion. I don't even need to prove that Luck could sense infinity. Endless means "infinite" or "Seeming to have no end". IF Magna assumed luck meant "Seeming to have no end" then it makes no sense for him to call it impossible. So Magna assumes that Luck is using the "infinite" definition. Calling it impossible. Reve then says that the impossible is possible in her world. Because she makes it the way she wants it. The dialogue makes no sense if Magna is just assuming Luck is saying "This spell is very big." Because then there is no reason for Magna to call it impossible for Reve to make a "very big" spell.

 

[PsychoWarper]

The fact that she can recreate Glamour World many times

Irrelevant, I didnt state her feat is an outlier in a vacuum I stated its an outlier to the rest of the verse.

and several characters have also destroyed it would just display its consistency.

How did they destroy it? Dorthy did it but afaik theres nothing to prove it was via AP just that the realm couldn’t handle both of them controlling it, Yami did it via a hax that very specifically cuts through dimensions/spatial stuff and… who else has done it and how?

Is there any other feat in the entire verse that replicates this level that isn’t related to this one spell? Afaik everything else in the series is fairly consistently tier 6 so this is an utterly massive jump based around a single creation feat.

 

[Comicgyal]

Following. I can see this being a hax feat, but scaling everyone to universal that’s stronger than Dorothy seems like a massive jump. If anything, any character that directly influences the Glamour world (like destroying it or something) can possibly get that rating if it’s applied.

 

[Damage3245]

If these characters consistently destroy the Glamour World with their attacks, why don't their attacks consistently destroy the Universe too?

 

[Avengershows]

1. Endless is most likely hyperbolic, by most likely i mean most definitely, anyone with any reading literacy beyond being able to read words out loud would agree to that
2. This feat is done by a fodder character and there's 0 material proof that this dimension extends to that length as said above, plus I don't think a random scrawny teen with questionable hairstyle choices would be able to tell what's endless and what's not, especially given that he's most likely human and most likely can't see beyond 20km
3. Even if we make an assumption that the word endless here is literal, we don't know if it's just incredibly reality bending hax that would make it endless in the same way a giant circle is endless
4. No other feats in the verse have ever been demonstrated to go even remotely close to this level, so how is it consistent?
5. As for relating to the stars thing, you're making an assumption that those stars and galaxies are actual stars and galaxies and aren't just visual effects which as far as I remember is not accepted by the wiki, esp when it comes to dealing with magic

 

[BlackAstaSenpai]

For feats like these I look to three things that justify the validity of the feat.

Lore: So what is Dorothy’s lore? Is Dorothy stated to be special in terms of magic output? Is she implied to have infinite Mana?

Dorothy is a witch, a reincarnation of an apostle of Sephirah (Reve) who is one of the ten strongest elves blessed and chosen by God. A character weaker than her (Patry) is said to have limitless, or bottomless mana.

Scaling: Is there anyone who has shown stamina issues but have scaling to be above her exist? If yes then this means there is some sort of inconsistency on the author’s part or misinterpretation from the reader that makes it all fall apart. Are there characters that seem amazed by the feat but have scaling above the character? Then this means the feat is amazing for another reason that isn’t ap based.

I don't see how stamina issues necessarily play a role into this. Characters can have access to infinite energy and still display stamina issues by using infinite energy or taking damage as well. As for the other part, characters are amazed by her Glamour World not just for it's sheer size, but for what she can do with it. She can summon endless attacks, use her imagination to create nearly anything, and when she fought Yami, made over a dozen clones of himself that fought against him.

Acknowledgement: If the feat is impressive then some acknowledgement of the character being above other characters must be stated or implied, otherwise the feat is not ap based.

Reve is an Apostle and Dorothy is a Captain, their ranks being acknowledgment of them being above other characters. Though I don't know what specific characters you are referencing.

If these aren’t met then I generally write the feat off as creation hax, there isn’t enough concreteness to justify it i.e too many aspects of it can be interpreted in different ways that make it become a battle of interpretations which at the end boil down to nothing.

I'd argue that it is AP based. Since when Reve was tricked, she accidentally made a clone of Dorothy. The two fought with their dreams, and the power of their dreams destroyed Glamour World.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Are there like any other feats that even come close to this level of AP besides this single spell in the entire series? This seems like an insane outlier even if we accept this directly scales to her AP and Durability. Afaik none of the Top tiers who are superior to Dorthy have even Tier 5 or 4 feats let alone tier 3 feats.

Yami, in a canon anime-only episode, cuts through the Glamour World.

The overall issue with this thread is, while the feat itself holds up to par, there is quite literally nothing else in the entire series that comes close to replicate this feat. This is made abundantly clear, as Nacht, the most knowledgeable person in the series, accosts the strongest villain so far would only destroy the world at his awakening.

 

[BlackAstaSenpai]

If these characters consistently destroy the Glamour World with their attacks, why don't their attacks consistently destroy the Universe too?

Why doesn't ANY universal character in fiction consistently destroy the universe too?

This is hardly a sound refutation at all.

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

Yami, in a canon anime-only episode, cuts through the Glamour World.

Via hax