High-Universal Black Clover

[Avengershows]

Not vague at all. Explain the holes in logic. I'm only following the rules of the standards for creating pocket dimensions.

Sure

• Assuming that "endless" inherently means "infinite" by misinterpreting a definition of the word infinite, and that the word endless only makes sense in the sense of infinite within this context
• Assuming that because someone has great sensory skill, they can inherently sense infinity
• "Here in the Glamor World... the impossible is possible" implies that the Glamor World can only be endless if it's in itself, making it hax at best, and a hole in logic at worst

 

[BlackAstaSenpai]

And you're intentionally misinterpreting the definition of infinite and how that wording is used, "endless in space", not just "endless". If you look up the definition of endless you literally get "having or seeming to have no end or limit."

And I've already refuted the "Seeming" argumentation. The whole debate between Luck and Magna makes zero sense and is redundant if it is the "Seeming" definition. The context of the scene means it's using the "having".

As for this part, are you seriously unable to comprehend analogies? I'm not saying it's a circle, I'm saying that the word "endless" can also apply to a circle. As I said originally, even if the statement is taken as non hyperbolic, it's at best just spatial manipulation

I understand analogies. It's not analogous to Glamour World. Just because Endless "Can apply" to a circle has nothing to do with the context of the scene.

Statments such as "muh infinite stamina" are dumb because having infinite mana or stamina does not necessairly mean you can release that level of energy.

Several statements of limitless, endless, bottomless mana for multiple ... and then a character creates an infinite realm.

It is, she says that the impossible is possible IN the world. To create that world she'd have to be outside it

How does her having to be outside of the Glamour world have anything to do with anything? How is this a contradiction?

 

[Avengershows]

And I've already refuted the "Seeming" argumentation. The whole debate between Luck and Magna makes zero sense and is redundant if it is the "Seeming" definition. The context of the scene means it's using the "having".

No you didn't all you said was "Well they said that it's impossible to be endless and she said the impossible is possible in the world" which doesn't prove shit. It could easily be interpreted as the world just being spatially bent in such a way that it has no beginning nor end, which is far more consistent with the "In the Glamor World, the impossible is possible" statment

I understand analogies. It's not analogous to Glamour World. Just because Endless "Can apply" to a circle has nothing to do with the context of the scene.

But it is, countless things can be endless like a circle, especially dimensions and worlds in fiction. Sirin from Honkai Impact 3rd for Example created the "Infinite Corridor" and it was explained that it's endless because of it's structure mirroring a complex riemannian manifold. It's literally just slightly more advanced geometry.

Several statements of limitless, endless, bottomless mana for multiple ... and then a character creates an infinite realm.

Except it isn't infinite, and you're intentionally misinterpreting the definition of the word infinite and have a strong case of confirmation bias. As I said above, having "limitless, endless, bottomless mana" does not mean that they can unleash all of it at once

How does her having to be outside of the Glamour world have anything to do with anything? How is this a contradiction?

It's a contradiction because she created the Glamor world from outside of it, not from the inside of it. What isn't clear

 

[ImmortalDread]

Also there is no narrative implication that she can destroy a universe. Here ability seems more like hax than AP.

I don't want to derail, but I have never seen a “pointless” argument actually, only because it is “hax”, does not really justify it can't be taken as an Attack Potency
For example: Yhwach is universal tier because he got that high scaled due to a hax (Environmental Destruction)

 

[BlackAstaSenpai]

Argument by definition is a fallacy ya know.

This isn't an argument by definition and you wouldn't even be using the fallacy correctly.

Example:

Person A:"Holy crap, it's on fire in here. Too bad the air conditioning went out."
Person B: "Actually, the dictionary says that fire ’ means “combustion or burning, in which substances combine chemically with oxygen from the air and typically give out bright light, heat, and smoke”, and there's clearly not a single flame here."

Whereas I'm using the added context of the scene which makes the most sense of the definition.

 

[Nierre]

Person A:"Holy crap, it's on fire in here. Too bad the air conditioning went out."
Person B: "Actually, the dictionary says that fire ’ means “combustion or burning, in which substances combine chemically with oxygen from the air and typically give out bright light, heat, and smoke”, and there's clearly not a single flame here."

Person A: ""

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Vsb has serious problems of english vocabulary and comprehension.
And the amount of people that get horny raging hard boners when they see the word "infinite" but somehow "endless" is just hyperbole is ******* disgusting.

 

[Romeu08]

There is no reliable statement about its size and their stamina does not support this level of energy expenditure, party statement was just flowery language even them limitless energy≠infinite output

 

[ImmortalDread]

Vsb has serious problems english vocabulary and comprehension.
And the amount of people that get horny raging hard boners when they see the word "infinite" but somehow "endless" is just hyperbole is ******* disgusting.

Ngl I also suggested it in this thread but seems no one is willing to agree with me, we need wiki standards at least for those words, or at least explanations with examples.

 

[JOLTxx]

I provided the scan that is said Luck is known for his sensory ability. Which proves the statement is made by a credible source.

Luck being known for his sensory abilities is not in anyway sufficient enough proof that he is capable of sensing infinity. Luck just sensed that the place is extremely large. And the word "endless" doesn't mean infinite. Again you're going off speculation instead of hard core facts.

I've already addressed this refutation in the actual post so it's funny that you're just rehashing it.

I didn't read through the thread, I just read your silly proposal and I responded.

It makes no sense for Magna to think that Luck is just saying "This spell really big.".

It makes no sense to you therefore it's wrong?.

Which is essentially what amounts to your ocean analogy. In fact, Sally even says "This must be the biggest spell one can possibly create,"

My analogy is correct. If you're in the middle of an ocean and can't see the end of something you'd think it's endless from your perspective but it doesn't change the nature or the size of the ocean now does it? Also "the biggest spell one can create" doesn't imply Infinity.

This means that the "infinite" Definition of endless is being used, otherwise the dialogue is redundant. Reve affirms the "Impossible" (Infinite) Endless.

You're just going off speculation analysis forgetting that endless doesn't mean infinite. If we are to conduct a little experiment, you place a hamster in a wheel and the hamster runs in one direction would the hamster ever get to the end? No. the hamster would conclude it's endless but does the conclusion affect the nature of the wheel not being infinite? This is proof that luck made his conclusion based on his own view and therefore isn't a credible source to be taken into consideration. The only person that is credible on this matter, that can truly say if the world is infinite or not is the creator of the glamour world herself and not luck. I don't recall her implying or saying anything about the glamour world being infinite.

Examples include on screen demonstrations, examples of destruction, or information that the same pool of energy used to create said dimension can translate to the same amount of energy being used for other abilities including but not limited to physical strikes.

Another silly analysis from you... Creation feats are studied on case by case analysis. Dorothy unsworth's energy of creation of the glamour world hasn't been shown to be applicable to her other combat capabilities or anyone else's for that matter. Her power to create a pocket reality doesn't equate and neither is it treated as universal AP in verse. And the funny thing is that when yami destroyed it he used a haxed ability

 

[ImmortalDread]

Luck being known for his sensory abilities is not in anyway sufficient enough proof that he is capable of sensing infinity. Luck just sensed that the place is extremely large. And the word "endless" doesn't mean infinite. Again you're going off speculation instead of hard core facts.

You are overhyping the word infinite a lot. Infinite means there is no end and limit. Literally the same as endless. It is not superior at all

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Ngl I also suggested it in this thread but seems no one is willing to agree with me, we need wiki standards at least for those words, or at least explanations with examples.

I remember we had a discussion on Q&A thread.
I maintain my stance that we don't need one. But unfortunate reality is people keep having skill issue and act like both words mean different.

 

[ImmortalDread]

I remember we had a discussion on Q&A thread.
I maintain my stance that we don't need one. But unfortunate reality is people keep having skill issue and act like both words mean different.

I know, it is an insignificant blog or page to add to a wiki, but you can't ignore that most of the debaters or many people still overestimate the word infinite. But literally a lot. Again, I also admitted that I am convinced we don't need one, but I can't ignore the fact that people use infinite as superior.

 

[Avengershows]

You are overhyping the word infinite a lot. Infinite means there is no end and limit. Literally the same as endless. It is not superior at all

You're actually kinda wrong, infinite is something that is not finite, endless things can be still finite. People confuse the two terms too much and throw them around however they like which is the annoying part. "Apples are red, but not all red things are apples" if you want to use an analogy

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

I know, it is an insignificant blog or page to add to a wiki, but you can't ignore that most of the debaters or many people still overestimate the word infinite. But literally a lot. Again, I also admitted that I am convinced we don't need one, but I can't ignore the fact that people use infinite as superior.

You know what, at this point I am willing to give it a shot. Just to see what results we get. I am curious.

 

[JOLTxx]

You are overhyping the word infinite a lot. Infinite means there is no end and limit. Literally the same as endless. It is not superior at all

You're misunderstanding... The definitions are similar but they're not the same

 

[Comicgyal]

You can’t really say endless = infinite without further context, and to say that endless always means infinite would be very detrimental.

 

[JOLTxx]

You might as well tell me words like "innumerable" and "countless" also means infinite

 

[PsychoWarper]

So we have a singular statement for this one spell and a statement about Lucifero destroying the World which might mean Universe… yeah no this is still an inconsistent outlier within the verse.

No other characters have anything even reaching Tier 5 let alone Tier 3. “Infinite Mana” is not proof of anything beyond perhaps Stamina.

Until we start seeing more legitimate Tier 3 stuff, that have nothing to do with Glamour World, from Black Clover this is an outlier.

 

[ImmortalDread]

You're actually kinda wrong, infinite is something that is not finite, endless things can be still finite. People confuse the two terms too much and throw them around however they like which is the annoying part. "Apples are red, but not all red things are apples" if you want to use an analogy

Something has no end, how it is finite for you? Like literally in simple language? It has no end, like literally?

 

[ImmortalDread]

You know what, at this point I am willing to give it a shot. Just to see what results we get. I am curious.

Fr, I am also curious ngl.

 

[ImmortalDread]

You might as well tell me words like "innumerable" and "countless" also means infinite

No, we discussed it in that thread, countless have a main core meaning. You can check in that thread, I won't explain it again.

 

[Avengershows]

Something has no end, how it is finite for you? Like literally in simple language? It has no end, like literally?

A circle has no end, are circles infinite?

 

[BlackAstaSenpai]

No you didn't all you said was "Well they said that it's impossible to be endless and she said the impossible is possible in the world" which doesn't prove shit. It could easily be interpreted as the world just being spatially bent in such a way that it has no beginning nor end, which is far more consistent with the "In the Glamor World, the impossible is possible" statment

"It can be easily interpeted as the world was just being spatially bent in such away that it has no beginning nor end,"

You are certainly using the word "EASILY" very liberally. That's far more assumptious.

But it is, countless things can be endless like a circle, especially dimensions and worlds in fiction. Sirin from Honkai Impact 3rd for Example created the "Infinite Corridor" and it was explained that it's endless because of it's structure mirroring a complex riemannian manifold. It's literally just slightly more advanced geometry.

Again, this is more of an assumption. Arguing that something is possible doesn't mean it is probable. You're just throwing out possible alternatives.

Except it isn't infinite, and you're intentionally misinterpreting the definition of the word infinite and have a strong case of confirmation bias. As I said above, having "limitless, endless, bottomless mana" does not mean that they can unleash all of it at once

Having limitless, endless, bottomless mana doesn't mean they can unleash all of it at once. But when Reve scales above Patry who has statements of bottomless and limitless mana and then creates an infinite world adds credence to the statements.

The context is that Dorothy/Reve create a separate world (one of the definitions for world is universe) and is stated to be a separate space. Not some geometry. IF the characters tried to run away, and ended up at the same place, then maybe you'd be right in comparing it to such a thing. Or if there was a statement of bent space. Isntead, Luck simply looks off into the abyss and makes the claim.

It's a contradiction because she created the Glamor world from outside of it, not from the inside of it. What isn't clear

How this has any sort of relevance to anything?

 

[ImmortalDread]

A circle has no end, are circles infinite?

One screenshot beat your damn argument, and now let's not derail this thread.

 

[Jibz]

This isn't an argument by definition and you wouldn't even be using the fallacy correctly.

Example:

Person A:"Holy crap, it's on fire in here. Too bad the air conditioning went out."
Person B: "Actually, the dictionary says that fire ’ means “combustion or burning, in which substances combine chemically with oxygen from the air and typically give out bright light, heat, and smoke”, and there's clearly not a single flame here."

Whereas I'm using the added context of the scene which makes the most sense of the definition.

Thats one side of two coins. ABD can be used to deny a definition due to conditions, but it can be also used to accept a definition due to conditions. Lets go over how you’d prove the argumentation Infinite = endless in this scenario.

1. State the definition (Y)
2. State the relevant info in said statement (X)
3. Prove how X facillitates the conditions needed to meet the definition.

You are unable to do that with this statement, due to the inherent ambiguity at play, it could be an equivocation for all we know. And yet you decide that your equivocation is correct, despite the issues that have been outlined throughout this entire conversation. And that is why i said this was an argument by definition. I do not see any added context which makes infinite the most logical conclusion here.

 

[Avengershows]

Again, this is more of an assumption. Arguing that something is possible doesn't mean it is probable. You're just throwing out possible alternatives.

Yes, those are alternatives, but they're far more ******* likely than a verse with Island and Country level feats except for a random ass dream realm.

How this has any sort of relevance to anything?

Can you not read?

One screenshot beat your damn argument, and now let's not derail this thread.

"The circle is the symbol for infinity" not "Circles are infinite", please use critical thinking

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

You're actually kinda wrong, infinite is something that is not finite, endless things can be still finite. People confuse the two terms too much and throw them around however they like which is the annoying part. "Apples are red, but not all red things are apples" if you want to use an analogy

Only on vs battle wiki

Definition of INFINITE

extending indefinitely : endless; immeasurably or inconceivably great or extensive : inexhaustible; subject to no limitation or external determination… See the full definition

www.merriam-webster.com

Definition of infinite​

(Entry 1 of 2)
1: extending indefinitely : ENDLESSinfinite space

So according to you Endless = Finite.
And since Infinite = Endless...
By logical consequences....
Infinite = Finite.

 

[ImmortalDread]

"The circle is the symbol for infinity" not "Circles are infinite", please use critical thinking

Naw, I am giving up. The guy is literally hilarious. I won't comment on anything anymore. This became funny.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

A circle has no end, are circles infinite?

Yes.. because 3/4 dimensional realms are circles. A very apt equivalence.

 

[Avengershows]

Only on vs battle wiki

Definition of INFINITE

extending indefinitely : endless; immeasurably or inconceivably great or extensive : inexhaustible; subject to no limitation or external determination… See the full definition

www.merriam-webster.com

So according to you Endless = Finite.
And since Infinite = Endless...
By logical consequences....
Infinite = Finite.

Holy **** are you illiterate. Endless isn't necessairly finite, it is a property that just means "without start or end", both finite and infinite things can be endless.

Naw, I am giving up. The guy is literally hilarious. I won't comment on anything anymore. This became funny.

If you literally clicked one more thing maybe you'd look less stupid

 

[Bernkastelll]

Black Clover should be High-Universal. I thought it was silly when I first heard the arguments and laughed it off. This is probably going to be one of the most controversial posts on the Black Clover page, as this will sound crazy to many people. But something "sounding crazy" isn't really relevant as long as it is factually supported. So please consider all of the evidence.

The evidence for Black Clover being High-Universal stems from the fact that it was stated and affirmed that Glamour World is an infinite-sized realm. And because creation feats can be scaled to attack potency, this would make Dorothy and anyone who scales to/above her as High-Universal. But before proving that her creation feat should scale to her AP as considered by this wiki's standards, I'll provide you with the evidence that shows that Glamour World is infinite in size:

While in Glamour World, the conversation goes as follows...

Luck says: "This place... There's no border. It's endless."

Magna says: "Huh? Luck, you moron. That's not even possible."

Reve (elf-Dorothy) responds to Luck and Magna by saying: "Here in Glamour World....The impossible is possible. It's all the way I want it to be."

Luck is notorious for having some of the best mana-sensory abilities in the series. So his credibility holds weight. Magna questions the impossibility of this being an infinite-sized spell. But Reve affirms the infinite size by stating "Here in Glamour world.... the impossible is possible." This means we have one statement by a credible character calling the spell infinite, and another statement by the creator of said spell affirming it. This is sufficient evidence that Glamour World is infinite in size.

Many will try and argue that the definition that Luck intended for "endless" was "Very big", as an alternate definition for endless is "Something seeming to have no end or border." But using that context makes no sense for the discussion. Magna clearly took Luck's intended definition of Endless as the "infinite" one. Or else he wouldn't have called it impossible to be true. And besides, Reve affirmed the "impossible" portion of what they were arguing about. So via a preponderance of evidence, Glamour World is an infinite-sized realm. Further support for this is that one of the creatures that Dorothy creates can seemingly eat or has a galaxy inside of it. Even if Glamour World wasn't Infinite there are many stars in the background which would make it 4-A.

Now of course there are standards that need to be met for creation of pocket-dimensions to scale to a characters AP/stats.

• There should be evidence or a well detailed explanation that a pocket dimension was created, and not simply an illusion or teleportation to another location.

The first standard is met. As while in Glamour World, Sally calls the spell a world and says it's the biggest spell that a mage could create. This means that Dorothy/Reve does actually create Glamour World, not just teleporting them there. Also, when Reve and Dorothy Clash, Glamour World is destroyed. Yet days later Dorothy is still shown to be able to use Glamour World. This means that she was able to recreate it. This is repeated again, as Yami would destroy Glamour World in the Anime-Canon, yet she could use it against Moris in the manga. We know that Glamour World isn't just an illusion, as Megicula's forbidden curses are not effective in Glamour World because it is stated to be a separate space.

• There should be some reason to consider the backgrounds stars, not just painted decorations within a throne room or museum.

I'd argue that the second standard isn't really that important to the argument since the realm is infinite. But, the stars in Glamour World are shown to twinkle, gleam, and glow in the anime. Which provides evidence that the stars aren't just "painted" in her realm.

• Even though there is concrete evidence for pocket reality creations to qualify as an Attack Potency feat; it should not be assumed to scale to physical statistics without some notable scaling reasons. Examples include on screen demonstrations, examples of destruction, or information that the same pool of energy used to create said dimension can translate to the same amount of energy being used for other abilities including but not limited to physical strikes.

The third standard is also met. As Dorothy/Reve uses mana to create Glamour World, which is the same pool of energy she would use to enhance her stats. Also, the same pool of energy that other characters use to fight her. When Reve first uses Glamour World, she opens her grimoire, and says "Dream Magic: Glamour World". This is proof that it is her spell. Mana is used to create spells. Drowa, Sally, and Magna all refer to Glamour world as a spell. All proving that it was made by mana. It's further backed up when heroes force Reve to spawn Dorothy, and the two duke it out. The clash of their dreams proves to be too much for the infinite realm and destroys it.


So basically anyone who scales to or above Reve/Dorothy in the elf-arc and beyond would have High 3-A AP and Durability. That's a lot of characters so don't really need to start listing them off.

agreed

 

[KLOL506]

Endless is infinite but also finite at the same time. Great logic really.

 

[Avengershows]

Yes.. because 3/4 dimensional realms are circles. A very apt equivalence.

Holy **** do you people not understand analogies? I'm not saying the realm is a circle, I'm giving an example of things not being infinite despite being endless

 

[KLOL506]

Holy **** are you illiterate. Endless isn't necessairly finite, it is a property that just means "without start or end", both finite and infinite things can be endless.




If you literally clicked one more thing maybe you'd look less stupid

Insulting people, are we?

We all do it but this is one of those times where it makes no ******* sense whatsoever.

 

[ImmortalDread]

Only on vs battle wiki

Definition of INFINITE

extending indefinitely : endless; immeasurably or inconceivably great or extensive : inexhaustible; subject to no limitation or external determination… See the full definition

www.merriam-webster.com

So according to you Endless = Finite.
And since Infinite = Endless...
By logical consequences....
Infinite = Finite.

Ngl leave him thinking the word infinite is something so huge and superior to all terms. And yet a page for this to actually clear all the things seems not important in wiki. According to his logic right now, a circle can't be infinite, alright so the cosmology of Silver Sea being infinite in size is mathematically impossible and wrong since circle can't be infinite. Alright, let's not derail this

 

[Jibz]

Holy **** are you illiterate

Cool it

 

[Avengershows]

Endless is infinite but also finite at the same time. Great logic really.

I'm not saying it's infinite and finite at the same time. Endless isn't even used to count things, it's literally just "without start or end", it isn't a "number" like infinity is

 

[KLOL506]

Holy **** do you people not understand analogies? I'm not saying the realm is a circle, I'm giving an example of things not being infinite despite being endless

Only way endless doesn't become infinite is if there are contradictions or it's hyperbole, any other reason is just asinine bias-filled BS.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Holy **** do you people not understand analogies? I'm not saying the realm is a circle, I'm giving an example of things not being infinite despite being endless

That's what equivalence is.. an analogy.
But have you ever heard of a phenomenon called... False Equivalence?