How strong is this guy and how does it affects the entire Persona-verse as a whole?

[Ranzuki]

Well the Persona-verse has this godlike entity called Umr-at-Tawil as a sub-boss in Persona 2. He was easily defeated by Tatsuya and his party but not permanently killed.

Cat Lieutenant General Zula: The very one who protects the Ultimate Gate, 'Umr at-Tawil, an avatar of the All-in-One and One-in-All, who is limitless both in self and being, has found you.

Cat Lieutenant General Zula: He may have allowed Carter to pass through, but I imagine he's disinclined to overlook you lot.

Cat Lieutenant General Zula: It is, naturally, incredibly dangerous. This fellow personifies the very boundaries of worlds. Though some might attempt to sneak around behind his back, there are none who can challenge him.

Cat Lieutenant General Zula: Those who attempt to embark on a journey to the Unconscious World via trespass through the Ultimate Gate are usually flung to some obscure dimension by him, never to return.

Cat Lieutenant General Zula: As I told you, he is the boundary. If he were not there, all boundaries would vanish from between the Collective Unconscious and your human knowledge, and you would cease to exist as individuals.

 

[Muhammedmco]

If I'm not wrong, then that would be High 1-B, possibly 1-A.

 

[MagiSinbad]

That... doesnt seem to translated into tier well...

you gonna need to confirm the size of CU to know what tier does he belong to

 

[Muhammedmco]

Well, Yaldabaoth once mentioned that the masses that praise the hol grail are infinite, meaning infinite desires.

In Persona 2, Philemon stated that the willpower of a human is the same power that created the universe.

This means that the CU contains infinite souls, and in turn, infinite universes.

Not to mention that accordin to the Megami Tensei official, the Velvet Room does not only exist between dream and reality, but also transcend it.

I have the scans for all of this, but i'm currently typing on my tablet, so i will post them once i have access to my computer.

 

[MagiSinbad]

kinda funny that while Umr-At-Tawil is an actual boss, Yog-Sothoth is a random demon that you encountered on the mid-way

 

[Muhammedmco]

What's more funny is the fact that Umr-At-Tawil is merely an avatar of Yog-Sothoth.

But considering the fact that the Persona series works in the ordeal of mythologies, then it's safe to assume that this is merely Game Mechanics.

 

[Muhammedmco]

But hey. Zula stated that Umr-At-Tawil prrsonifies the boundaries of the worlds, and should he cease to exist, the boundaries would vanish from betwen the inifinte souls (universes) of the CU.

In my opinion, that's High 1-B, simce he is an avatar of Yog-Sothoth, who is stated to be an Outer God that is limitless in both self and being. This also means that Yog-Sothoth is 1-A.

Or that's my own opinion.

 

[Ranzuki]

That... doesnt seem to translated into tier well...
you gonna need to confirm the size of CU to know what tier does he belong to

Well supposed to be the Kadath Mandala is the highest dimension of the CU. Honestly, I have no idea how to properly interpret the whole "shallower than the abyss" figure of speech that Igor just said but it's probably meant something to be above infinite space though I'm not really sure. Also the Kadath is supposed to be both a Macrocosm and a Microcosm.

Also here are some actual quotes, feel free to interpret them.

Tatsuya: Kadath?

[Igor nods.]

Igor: It exists one level shallower than the abyss where my master Philemon and the Crawling Chaos reside, in the realm where the archetypes of Personas and demons slumber.

Cat Lieutenant General Zula: This place called Kadath Mandala is constructed in the shape of a hexagram, containing an older pentagram emblem.

Cat Lieutenant General Zula: The hexagram represents the vast macrocosm of space and the pentagram is a symbol of the microcosm known as humanity.

 

[Wokistan]

This is very much not proof of High 1-B or 1-A in a verse that caps out seemingly at Low 2-C, and you can't just scale it to the Cthulhu Mythos version of 'Umr at-Tawil.

 

[Ranzuki]

This is very much not proof of High 1-B or 1-A in a verse that caps out seemingly at Low 2-C, and you can't just scale it to the Cthulhu Mythos version of 'Umr at-Tawil.

To be fair it was generally agreed that Persona 1 and 2 cast are possibly 2-B and we have Tamaki, a confirmed 2-A character making a direct appearance in Persona 1 and 2 so there is a possiblity that Umr-at-Tawil will scale to her.

I don't agree with 1-A or high 1-B as well but I'm interested to know what Muhammedmco has say about them being 1-A or high 1-B.

 

[Dark_warrior_100]

It's not my intention to offens you, but you should post actual scans instead of transcriptions that can easily be faked

 

[Muhammedmco]

Hmm...

As you guys know, there were multiple claims that the CU holds infinite desires:

https://imgur.com/a/vbAfr8x

Desires, as stated by Philemon, are the willpower of a human being, where willpower is the same power that created the universe:

https://sta.sh/01aa4xie4xr3

That's 2-A, but...

Yaldabaoth was able to take hold of the Velvet Room, and even fuse it with Mementos. The Velvet Room, at that note, was not only stated to exist between dream and reality, but also transcend them:

https://imgur.com/a/Xeuqz4R

That's High 2-A alright.

And to further confirm High 2-A, in the Persona 3 Club Book Q & A, Nyx, who is comparable to all the Final bosses in the other Persona games, is stated to exist outside the observant reality:

https://imgur.com/a/O1raOzr

This, in turn, would mean that Umr-At-Tawil is above that, since he personifies the boundaries of worlds, or in turn, the worlds inside the Collective Unconsciousness.

So, that means that he's Low 1-C.

I thought that the High 1-B and 1-A justifications was due to the fact that Yog-Sothoth was stated to be limitless, so that would mean that Yog-Sothoth is 1-A, and since Umr-At-Tawil is his avatar, then he is High 1-B. That was my justification.

 

[Ranzuki]

It's not my intention to offens you, but you should post actual scans instead of transcriptions that can easily be faked

There are no official English translations of the new EP scenario for the PSP. The PSP version of EP was never been released in the West. If you have doubts with these fan translation go ask Sera to confirm them as she is fluent in Japanese.

There are only fan translations such as these:

https://p2px-scenario.tumblr.com/post/123883917483/part-3-gone-without-a-trace-section-a

http://pastebin.com/ZwgvSg4m

http://pastebin.com/Mcimw1pM

http://pastebin.com/Da5uj7Mk

These two different translation of the EP scenario has very similar content.

 

[Muhammedmco]

Well, even so, High 2-A and Low 1-C Umr-At-Tawil is legit.

 

[Dark_warrior_100]

There are no official English translations of the new EP scenario for the PSP. The PSP version of EP was never been released in the West. If you have doubts with these fan translation go ask Sera to confirm them as she is fluent in Japanese.

There are only fan translations such as these:

https://p2px-scenario.tumblr.com/post/123883917483/part-3-gone-without-a-trace-section-a

http://pastebin.com/ZwgvSg4m

http://pastebin.com/Mcimw1pM

http://pastebin.com/Da5uj7Mk

These two different translation of the EP scenario has very similar content.

Sorry, i think I wasn't clear with my comment

What I meant was that you should post scans instead of transcriptions, if they are translated or not does not matter, since there is a number of ways to get a translation

 

[Muhammedmco]

So, you approve of my scans?

I mean the ones excluding the Persona 2 ones.

 

[Ranzuki]

What I meant was that you should post scans instead of transcriptions, if they are translated or not does not matter, since there is a number of ways to get a translation

You are asking way too much, I don't read Japanese but these translation has been around since 2012 and they are two different sources. It's like an equivalent of asking me to show you a raw version of a light novel and compare it to a fan translation. If you have so much doubts then go ask a native Japanese speaker to translate these for you.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I7NTKVsXEGY&list=PLf2u3pfvIwfApxXda3X0Go6gUCyweer_X&index=8&t=0s

 

[Muhammedmco]

But i haven't shown anything japanese, you know. All is English in those threads.

I mean, look at the scans that are not from Persona 2 which i posted.

 

[Ranzuki]

But i haven't shown anything japanese, you know. All is English in those threads.
I mean, look at the scans that are not from Persona 2 which i posted.

He was quoting me. That Tatsuya scenario is exlusive to the PSP version which was never released in English.

 

[Muhammedmco]

Yeah. I get you.

What i want to say that there are Persona 5 scans and Persona 3 scans in the threads i posted. Have you checked them?

 

[Ranzuki]

Yeah. I get you.
What i want to say that there are Persona 5 scans and Persona 3 scans in the threads i posted. Have you checked them?

Yes I did, they were very controversial before so I'll try to avoid commenting on them especially regarding Nyx. I personally will wait what the other Persona and SMT fans has to say about this and why Persona should or should not scale to Tamaki. Then again, the Persona 1 and 2 revisions never got updated despite the possibility of 2-B was agreed by everyone.

 

[Thatsafloridathing]

Muhammedmco's scans seem a bit off to me because the older Persona games had different directors than the newer ones, didn't they? Hashino pulling lore from the older games and applying it to the newer games doesn't add up because Persona 3, 4 and 5 already retcon a bunch of lore from 1 and 2. Also, I don't know if P1 and P2's casts can actually scale to Tamaki mainly due to her not really having any direct feats in those games. 2-B is completely legit, but we just haven't gotten enough staff agreement on the thread yet.

 

[Yvel_Atsly]

Oh yeahPersona dosen't scale to Tamaki since she never fights.

 

[Ranzuki]

She doesn't need to have feats in Persona, from what I've gathered SMT If is canonicaly tied to Persona-verse and the events of SMT If happened before the events on Persona. Umr-at-Tawil's entire concept is bound to the whole existence of the concept of boundary. Permanently killing him will affect all of humanity which includes Tamaki unless she is somehow an exception for this but not only that as all other abstract concepts tied to boundary will be affected. Tatsuya defeated Umr-at-Tawil but it's impossible to permanently kill him because it will destroy the very concept of boundary and everything will be a single entity.

 

[Solacis]

Ugh this shit again...

The linked statements concerning the Velvet Room 'transcending' dream and reality, as well as Nyx being 5-D, are all bullshit. For one, Igor himself contradicts that so-called "transcendence" by repeating word-for-word in every game that the Velvet Room exists betwee dreams and reality. That's not transcendence, that's a pocket dimension in a void. Also, if Nyx were 5-D, Earth would've been annihilated if she crashed into it hard enough to have to enter dormancy and heal. That's like me getting put into the hospital after getting smacked by a drawing. Logically impossible.

Also, the real kicker here is that those are screenshots from the megami tensei wiki, not scans. What's worse is that they aren't even sourced, so the actual source of that information can't be verified.

"Limitless" does NOT instantly imply Tier 1. To claim that is a complete joke. The gap between Low 2-C and 2-C is infinite. The gap between 2-C and 2-A is infinite. The gap between 2-A and High 2-A, is again, infinite. There are several levels of infinite within 1-C itself, so I think you get the point now.

"Limitless" holds no value without supporting feats on that level. Just because a Character A is claimed to be infinitely above a 9-A Character B does not automatically make Character A a Low 2-C. That's ridiculous.

Muhammedmco, I'd highly recommend actually reading up on the standards of this wiki and the context of the statements in-universe before making claims like this in a CRT. Blatantly wrong claims such as only serve to make things harder for everyone.

 

[The_Unknown_Warrior1]

Wait there are other CM creatures in Persona besides Nyarlathotep?

 

[Yvel_Atsly]

And I feel it's alot to imply Umr affects Tamaki even in her If... sta ges since Umr is supposed to be boundary of the collective unconscious which humans from SMT aren't born from, nor the demons. Plus SMT has killed important demons before. Like Canopus who was made elements that comprised the Devil Survivor Multiverse. Kagutsuchi who was all time and said time died when he was killed. So Umr"s supposed boundries don't matter at all

 

[The_Unknown_Warrior1]

Anyways based off this I don't think Umr or Persona can be 1-A, I've heard though that the verse will become multiversal

 

[Yvel_Atsly]

Yeah. Possibly 2-B for Persona 1 and 2

 

[Zer00Negativo]

Although Cthulhu's gods are literally the same as the books, and even the author, Lovecraft, is mentioned in P1's manga, I was not opinionated about that, but about CU I think it has a basis for considering high 2-A for it is mentioned that it is beyond spacetime (infinite universes, since there may be an infinite number of souls there) and there is a mention in P2 that the god Brahma created spacetime, and he is merely a common persona (it also exists in P1)

https://megamitensei.fandom.com/wiki/Brahma

 

[Mr.Cinos15]

There are a couple character's that are said to be beyond space and time but are still not given High 2-A, and even then that type of statement might only give you Immeasurable speed if I remember my Blazblue revisions correctly.

 

[Zer00Negativo]

This is quite wrong, if the universe has 4 dimensions and there is a plane beyond it, what is its dimensionality? it has to be 5, because what comes after number 4 is 5, see this example

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Chronos_(Saint_Seiya)

 

[Yvel_Atsly]

Well infinite souls is a only a possbility at most. and a seemingly very low since even the more powerful parts of the Persona verse (1 and 2) get 2-B at most since IIRC it was just souls to a countably higher finite number at most.

 

[Mr.Cinos15]

The Chaos force from Archie Sonic is stated to be a realm beyond two infinite Multiverse's and a realm (Maginaryworld) that is beyond those two Multiverse's which are 4-D, but yet it is still rated as 4-D even though it is beyond a 4-D cosmology. The Saint Seiya verse is currently going through some very slow revisions at the moment and supposidly Matt is going to make a big revision for the series someday the same way he did Elder Scrolls, but he is taking his time cause he deserves it.

 

[Zer00Negativo]

chaos force encompasses all reality, besides being mentioned that there is a higher plane of reality, this is a mistake on the wiki because it is the same as saying that after number 4 (and higher) comes 4 again

 

[Mr.Cinos15]

While I agree with that, Im just saying that going by how the wiki treats these type of statements, they're not gonna get High 2-A. So I myself am not against the upgrades, just warning you guy's that it's most likely to not gonna be accepted. Sorry if it sounded like I was against the upgrades.