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It's a rarity for me to make a staff discussion thread but I thought this was worth the discussion.
This is a staff only, if non staff members wish to comment, please ask permission from an administrator or thread moderator.
Premise
The premise of this thread is pretty simple, I want to discuss how we rate "humans" in fiction when it involves high tier scaling. Now when I say "human", I mean characters who in verse are considered like real life humans in at least some capacity and have no noticeable special power. So this excludes humans from verses like Dragon Ball, Naruto and so on, so if you are reading this thread and think it's referring to them and those are the only ones you care about, it's not about them and you don't need to bother reading further as any verse with an energy system of any kind is exempt from this thread.
The Problem
To get everyone up to speed and on the same page, I'll be using the verse that brought about the reason for me making this thread in the first place, Danny Phantom. To keep it short and simple, Danny Phantom is a verse that consists of both humans and ghosts. The ghosts usually provide the feats and in the past I've made many threads that showed how specific humans (ghost hunters) scaled to them (here is one for reference). Basically, anytime the ghosts tier change, the human ghost hunters follow suit. No one really complained when they were tier 8, 7 or 6, the last one was surprising but not main problems occurred. However, then tier 4 and eventual tier 2 feats came to light and that's when the problem really arose. The arguments were all the same, "they are human" or "Danny and his friends are weak nerds who get shoved into lockers". Now as you can see, the arguments aren't good because they'd apply even for tier 8 humans, the literal core argument is "they are human so they can't be that strong" which is effectively saying "humans" can't get that strong but that applies to anything tier 9-A and up.
So because people could only complain and not make threads, I once again made a thread discussing humans scaling to ghosts via feats and statements. I even created an entire blog detailing their feats and anti-feats, designed to showcase specific humans in the verse are superhuman and there are some that scale to ghosts in strength, speed and durability. The feats and statements outweighed the anti-feats by a decent amount however that didn't matter because the same main argument was applied "they are seen as human" and "they are weak humans". But then two new arguments were brought forth and it was mentioned that since all those feats involved humans scaling to the ghosts and not the humans doing the feats themselves, it diminished them as evidence. Then when it's mentioned that humans from the original universe split the universe into what it currently is due to the war with each other. However the fallacy was used that "ancient humans are generally treated stronger than current day humans". This is never stated in Danny Phantom so it's basing it of how other verses treat past humans as stronger than current humans so it applies to Danny Phantom...
Now this doesn't work on multiple levels but I accepted it and the end result was that the humans in Danny Phantom despite the overwhelming showings and statements no longer scale to ghosts physically unless equipment is used thus they could only scale to their own feats (Tier 9-C to 9-B). So this shows there is an standard but it's not mentioned anywhere as far as I know.
Another Example
I don't like using other verses as an example especially ones I don't know but since this is a general thread, we can talk about Pokemon humans. So, the trainers scale to Tier 9 via their own stuff iirc and don't have a noticeable universal energy system, but when you look at their speed, the reactions for high tier trainers are literally FTL / Massively FTL+ to Infinite via scaling to their pokemon (example Ash Ketchum). So, we do have human statistics rated far beyond what a "human" is capable of literally by an infinite amount, is it because it's only speed? Which I think is fine if it's consistent and they got the scaling then that's just how the verse treats it but we need a standard otherwise it could eventually lead to confusion on when we draw the line.
Suggestion
So no one fumbles as big as I did when scaling humans to superhuman entities, I think a page or blog should be made that provides a standard on what is acceptable for "humans" to scale too. I'll use Danny Phantom as a basis on what wasn't enough...
1. Several humans have shown superhuman feats that exceeded that of a normal human.
2. Several humans have a large number of scaling feats to ghosts that exceed their anti-feats.
3. Humans possess a universal energy system (albeit they don't use it to fire energy beams or anything like that)
4. Past humans performed a Tier 2 Feat and have a universal energy system.
5. Ghosts have shown to gain large amounts of strength from certain human genetic strength that they themselves admit they want.
6. Certain humans are literally stated to train to fight ghosts in physical conflict.
Despite all of the above, this was not enough to overcome the fact that they are humans and the ghosts that these specific humans are trying to scale too are Tier 2. So below is my suggestion on what a page/blog should look like...
Anyway, that's about it. I'd like to hear thoughts from other staff members. Should we set standards for verses that have "humans" consistently scaling to incredibly powerful entities? Remember, this is a staff only, if non staff members wish to comment, please ask permission from an administrator or thread moderator.
Agree with page or blog:
Disagree, not notable enough:
Neutral, I don't deal in verses with "humans": 1(DarkDragonMedus (Thinks its worth discussion),
This is a staff only, if non staff members wish to comment, please ask permission from an administrator or thread moderator.
Premise
The premise of this thread is pretty simple, I want to discuss how we rate "humans" in fiction when it involves high tier scaling. Now when I say "human", I mean characters who in verse are considered like real life humans in at least some capacity and have no noticeable special power. So this excludes humans from verses like Dragon Ball, Naruto and so on, so if you are reading this thread and think it's referring to them and those are the only ones you care about, it's not about them and you don't need to bother reading further as any verse with an energy system of any kind is exempt from this thread.
The Problem
To get everyone up to speed and on the same page, I'll be using the verse that brought about the reason for me making this thread in the first place, Danny Phantom. To keep it short and simple, Danny Phantom is a verse that consists of both humans and ghosts. The ghosts usually provide the feats and in the past I've made many threads that showed how specific humans (ghost hunters) scaled to them (here is one for reference). Basically, anytime the ghosts tier change, the human ghost hunters follow suit. No one really complained when they were tier 8, 7 or 6, the last one was surprising but not main problems occurred. However, then tier 4 and eventual tier 2 feats came to light and that's when the problem really arose. The arguments were all the same, "they are human" or "Danny and his friends are weak nerds who get shoved into lockers". Now as you can see, the arguments aren't good because they'd apply even for tier 8 humans, the literal core argument is "they are human so they can't be that strong" which is effectively saying "humans" can't get that strong but that applies to anything tier 9-A and up.
So because people could only complain and not make threads, I once again made a thread discussing humans scaling to ghosts via feats and statements. I even created an entire blog detailing their feats and anti-feats, designed to showcase specific humans in the verse are superhuman and there are some that scale to ghosts in strength, speed and durability. The feats and statements outweighed the anti-feats by a decent amount however that didn't matter because the same main argument was applied "they are seen as human" and "they are weak humans". But then two new arguments were brought forth and it was mentioned that since all those feats involved humans scaling to the ghosts and not the humans doing the feats themselves, it diminished them as evidence. Then when it's mentioned that humans from the original universe split the universe into what it currently is due to the war with each other. However the fallacy was used that "ancient humans are generally treated stronger than current day humans". This is never stated in Danny Phantom so it's basing it of how other verses treat past humans as stronger than current humans so it applies to Danny Phantom...
Now this doesn't work on multiple levels but I accepted it and the end result was that the humans in Danny Phantom despite the overwhelming showings and statements no longer scale to ghosts physically unless equipment is used thus they could only scale to their own feats (Tier 9-C to 9-B). So this shows there is an standard but it's not mentioned anywhere as far as I know.
Suggestion
So no one fumbles as big as I did when scaling humans to superhuman entities, I think a page or blog should be made that provides a standard on what is acceptable for "humans" to scale too. I'll use Danny Phantom as a basis on what wasn't enough...
1. Several humans have shown superhuman feats that exceeded that of a normal human.
2. Several humans have a large number of scaling feats to ghosts that exceed their anti-feats.
3. Humans possess a universal energy system (albeit they don't use it to fire energy beams or anything like that)
4. Past humans performed a Tier 2 Feat and have a universal energy system.
5. Ghosts have shown to gain large amounts of strength from certain human genetic strength that they themselves admit they want.
6. Certain humans are literally stated to train to fight ghosts in physical conflict.
Despite all of the above, this was not enough to overcome the fact that they are humans and the ghosts that these specific humans are trying to scale too are Tier 2. So below is my suggestion on what a page/blog should look like...
Fictional Human Scaling
Throughout fiction, humans have shown various levels of power that usually exceeds the power of that of real life humans. Generally, certain humans in most works reach into the range street level, wall level and even building level. However, in many other cases, humans have far exceeded these levels and thus a certain amount of evidence is required when such situations arise. Please note that this only applies to verses with humans that do not possess a stated energy system like those explained in our Universal Energy Systems page. Thus, verses such as Dragon Ball, Naruto and any other verse that uses and energy system that actively is shown to enhance the capabilities of the humans within said verse affected by this.
Supporting Evidence
Below is a list of evidence types that can be used to suggest the humans or a select number of humans within a verse scale to a value that is far beyond the capabilities of what an actual human would logically be capable of.
* Feats: The most direct proof for showing they are above the normal human level is them having their own feats on the level being suggested. For example, if attempting to upgrade humans to Tier 8, they would need feats of destroying an entire building with an attack and so on. Please note that more feats would be needed when aiming for higher tiers like any other scaling attempt.
* Power Scaling: These feats involve said human characters who don't have their own feats, scaling specifically to an entity who has preformed said feat to reach a specific level. Please note that this type of evidence eventually has it's limits, for example, a character with 20 scaling feats wouldn't be much different from a character with a 50 scaling feats. The number of scaling feats only matter depending on the tier in which the character is being scaled too.
* Statements: Statements from reliable sources can also be used. However like with the previous examples, statements can only get one so far before more types of evidence is required. For example, a few statements that suggest humans are Building level or Mountain level are good but even a large number of statements wouldn't be too helpful if one was trying to argue about humans being Planet level or above.
It's important to note that just because one verse has humans that are a certain level due to specific reasons, it doesn't mean another verse should have their humans at that same level. Verses will be judged by their own feats and anti-feats accordingly.
Acceptable Case Examples
* Danganronpa: Despite the lack of energy systems in the series, humans have consistently showcased feats that are far above the real-life ones, with the most powerful ones such as Sakura Ogami or Genocider Syo showcasing to be comparable to beings such as Monokuma or his variants, with said scaling being backed from the fact that even regular humans in the series (such as Makoto Naegi or Teruteru Hanamura), or characters physically much stronger than them (like Takumi Hijirihara or Nekomaru Nidai) have multiple Tier 9 to 8 feats.
Unacceptable Case Examples
* Danny Phantom: Despite the large number of scaling feats and feats (that exceed their anti-feats), statements, and universal energy system, the Danny Phantom human scaling to ghosts is currently not accepted. The Ghosts are simply rated too high (Tier 2) and while the humans anti-feats are lower in quantity than their normal feats, they have statements that would suggest they are weak and around closer to the level of ordinary humans. Thus, we only scale them to their own feats.
Throughout fiction, humans have shown various levels of power that usually exceeds the power of that of real life humans. Generally, certain humans in most works reach into the range street level, wall level and even building level. However, in many other cases, humans have far exceeded these levels and thus a certain amount of evidence is required when such situations arise. Please note that this only applies to verses with humans that do not possess a stated energy system like those explained in our Universal Energy Systems page. Thus, verses such as Dragon Ball, Naruto and any other verse that uses and energy system that actively is shown to enhance the capabilities of the humans within said verse affected by this.
Supporting Evidence
Below is a list of evidence types that can be used to suggest the humans or a select number of humans within a verse scale to a value that is far beyond the capabilities of what an actual human would logically be capable of.
* Feats: The most direct proof for showing they are above the normal human level is them having their own feats on the level being suggested. For example, if attempting to upgrade humans to Tier 8, they would need feats of destroying an entire building with an attack and so on. Please note that more feats would be needed when aiming for higher tiers like any other scaling attempt.
* Power Scaling: These feats involve said human characters who don't have their own feats, scaling specifically to an entity who has preformed said feat to reach a specific level. Please note that this type of evidence eventually has it's limits, for example, a character with 20 scaling feats wouldn't be much different from a character with a 50 scaling feats. The number of scaling feats only matter depending on the tier in which the character is being scaled too.
* Statements: Statements from reliable sources can also be used. However like with the previous examples, statements can only get one so far before more types of evidence is required. For example, a few statements that suggest humans are Building level or Mountain level are good but even a large number of statements wouldn't be too helpful if one was trying to argue about humans being Planet level or above.
It's important to note that just because one verse has humans that are a certain level due to specific reasons, it doesn't mean another verse should have their humans at that same level. Verses will be judged by their own feats and anti-feats accordingly.
Acceptable Case Examples
* Danganronpa: Despite the lack of energy systems in the series, humans have consistently showcased feats that are far above the real-life ones, with the most powerful ones such as Sakura Ogami or Genocider Syo showcasing to be comparable to beings such as Monokuma or his variants, with said scaling being backed from the fact that even regular humans in the series (such as Makoto Naegi or Teruteru Hanamura), or characters physically much stronger than them (like Takumi Hijirihara or Nekomaru Nidai) have multiple Tier 9 to 8 feats.
Unacceptable Case Examples
* Danny Phantom: Despite the large number of scaling feats and feats (that exceed their anti-feats), statements, and universal energy system, the Danny Phantom human scaling to ghosts is currently not accepted. The Ghosts are simply rated too high (Tier 2) and while the humans anti-feats are lower in quantity than their normal feats, they have statements that would suggest they are weak and around closer to the level of ordinary humans. Thus, we only scale them to their own feats.
Anyway, that's about it. I'd like to hear thoughts from other staff members. Should we set standards for verses that have "humans" consistently scaling to incredibly powerful entities? Remember, this is a staff only, if non staff members wish to comment, please ask permission from an administrator or thread moderator.
Agree with page or blog:
Disagree, not notable enough:
Neutral, I don't deal in verses with "humans": 1(DarkDragonMedus (Thinks its worth discussion),
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