Iihiko Shishime vs Lord Revelation

[Agnaa]

I'm not sure if automatically being immune to 4D ''skills'' should make Iihiko immune to all 3D physical attacks. That was never mentioned in the upgrade.

 

[InfiniteSped]

Pretty sure that was after the upgrades. People agreed that nulling 4D hax doesn't translate to nulling infinite 3-D AP

 

[Naeblis495]

he could just destroy the hand with a dura neg Irreversible Destruction rubber band or reflect the attack.

 

[Agnaa]

he could just destroy the hand with a dura neg Irreversible Destruction rubber band or reflect the attack.

Pretty sure his attacks don't have the AoE to properly destroy the hand with dura neg.

It doesn't seem like his attack reflection stops him from taking the damage himself, and if he died Revelation could start regenning anyway.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Well the null works on things that have "4D AP". It's not like we're nulling power mimicry here. The skills that do get negged can translate to AP.

 

[InfiniteSped]

What skill has 4D ap?

Edit: Wouldn't 4d ap be tier 2?

 

[Agnaa]

Well the null works on things that have "4D AP". It's not like we're nulling power mimicry here. The skills that do get negged can translate to AP.

4D Potency =/= 4D AP.

The closest skill that can be translated to AP is All Fiction, which currently doesn't translate to AP (hence why Kumagawa and Medaka don't have High 3-A AP). No other "4D skill" has that from AP, but only because it works on All Fiction.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

4d high 3a will be removed, but af can translate to ap.

Not only that but that's just abusing the existence of nlf to the max. I mean something slightly stronger won't get past null. The limit has to be at least great enough. And moon busting is not baseline 5c.

 

[Agnaa]

4D High 3-A hasn't been removed yet, and if you're referring to the CRT I'm thinking about it won't be removed for a long time. If it's a CRT just to remove that; they've failed many times in the past, and will likely fail again.

AF translating to AP hasn't been accepted. And for good reason.

Well, that's how we treat NLF on this site. Anything slightly stronger and faster than CB at SoL will get around Gagamaru Chougasaki's Encounter.

Off-screen moon busting is baseline 5-C since it doesn't have a calc. That's how feats without calcs work.

 

[InfiniteSped]

We didn't see the moon after it was destroyed, so there's no way to know the actual value. Could even be lower or higher than 5-C, so if we're assuming 5-C, baseline is prob the best.

Revelation's feat is about 8 times higher than baseline, that's quite a decent gap.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

Anything slightly stronger and faster than CB at SoL will get around Gagamaru Chougasaki's Encounter.

Actually, that changed a while ago

 

[Agnaa]

Actually, that changed a while ago

No it didn't, read the thread. You and Earl agreed that it shouldn't apply, DT disagreed strongly, and the thread went nowhere.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

It was agreed that it should be removed, and then DT came to contest it but stopped responding, so it stayed removed. Are you implying I didn't read the thread when I was there? It wasn't just Earl and I

 

[Agnaa]

It was agreed that it should be removed, and then DT came to contest it but stopped responding, so it stayed removed. Are you implying I didn't read the thread when I was there?

It was agreed that the note on the page should be removed (partially because it wasn't on Medaka's page), but it wasn't agreed that NLF would stop applying.

I'm implying you forgot about the thread, because the only other reason you'd be saying something so easily demonstrably false is if you were lying.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

The note on the page was what kept in binding. No other damage transfer user is held to the standard that Gagamaru was, so the only way he would be bound by that is if either the note stayed or the policy for all damage transfer users changed.

Or, that the note on the page was the only thing that kept the NLF as policy instead of a faulty interpretation

 

[Agnaa]

The note on the page was what kept in binding. No other damage transfer user is held to the standard that Gagamaru was, so the only way he would be bound by that is if either the note stayed or the policy for all damage transfer users changed.

Then the note was removed too easily, and should be re-added.

Two users agreeing on something for such a controversial verse is not grounds for a change like that. Especially since three users disagreed with you two.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

The note makes no sense without Encounter being attack reflection. The only way it gets re-added is if policy changes or Encounter stops being damage transfer

What do you mean two users? Earl and I were not the only 2 in agreement. Ant and Procrastination also agreed. The removal of the note is a natural consequence of the already agreed on changes as well, so unless the policy of all transfer users changes, there is no reason for it to stay on. Even if the policy did change, then there would be no need for the note since all would be bound by it

 

[InfiniteSped]

Stay on topic, guise.

 

[Agnaa]

It's the same ability, the note should still make sense regardless of what we clarify it as. The issue is with him turning to paste before he can push it away, not of whether he can push away X amount of damage or Y amount of damage.

Ant agreed with changing Attack Reflection to Damage Transferal but didn't support or go against removing the note. Procrastination was largely the same, but he also made comments like "Funnily enough, Hinokage being able to move Gagamaru proves that it's damage, not force, that he sends elsewhere." Comments from which I couldn't figure out who he supported.

@Infinite's right, this doesn't really have anything to do with this thread. Iihiko's Attack Reflectin and not Damage Transfer anyway.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

Reinterpreting the ability has major implications since the 2 abilities are regarded in different light according to wiki policy. No other damage transfer user is asked to prove how much damage they can transfer. There isn't really a "before" either since it happens in the same moment, if you know what I mean

He did, he said we could change the notes that had to do with attack reflection. Those comments are points that support the note not staying, since I explicitly made the case that the amount of damage something does cannot be quantified like force can. He also gave multiple kudos towards comments supporting the removal of the note, while he gave only a single one to a comment against the removal.

We can continue this talk on discord later if you want

 

[Agnaa]

Have other damage transfer users been assumed to be able to reflect 3-A attacks at MFTL+ speed despite feats far lower? I remember that Accelerator has Vector Manipulation which despite being an offensive ability, since it had a defensive application it still had defensive hax standards applied to it.

Oh okay, my bad.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

Let's talk in discord later, aight?

 

[Agnaa]

Let's talk in discord later, aight?

idk if that would help, I think I'd only be able to change your mind by showing overwhelming staff support for my side, so I'll keep it to the thread.

 

[ZackMoon1234]

Bump

 

[InfiniteSped]

Anyway, in that thread it was agreed that Iihiko can't just null infinite AP, so we gotta go with what feats he has. Revelation's attacks is stronger than Medaka's, so it should be enough to kill Iihiko, then it's just a matter of resisting the possession, which he should be able to do just fine.

 

[Nepuko]

Lord R fra.

 

[Agnaa]

I'm still not sure about surviving possession. The reason given is that "possession is common in verse, and stronger characters generally resist weaker characters' stuff". But if Lord Revelation hasn't shown it himself (and especially since it isn't on his profile) I'm not very comfortable saying he resists it.

 

[InfiniteSped]

His true form appeared for two chapters, then died. He didn't have much time to resist anything, what he has is mostly scaling because weaker characters have it, and resistances in ISSTH generally apply for stronger characters as well, unless it's something very specific, that possession really isn't.

 

[InfiniteSped]

I'll grab some feats real quick

 

[Agnaa]

Then why does he have a bunch of resistances for those reasons on his profile, but not resistance to possession?

I get pretty sus about claimed abilities that aren't on profiles, since occasionally they're left out of the profile for a good reason (that I can't evaluate as I'm not familiar with the verse).

 

[Nepuko]

I thought that falls under Resistance to Soul Manipulation. Seems not.

 

[InfiniteSped]

Depends on the type. There's mind, soul and body possession, Revelation resists mind and soul stuff, and body should be easy enough. Iihiko's stuff is supposed to be different, but it seems more like a mind and body thing.

 

[Nepuko]

He resists Mind/Soul via Nascent Soul and Divine Sense, Physical via Qi and Divine Sense, normally.

 

[InfiniteSped]

Patriarch Reliance's clone possessing a cultivator:

Patriarch Reliance clenched his teeth, then sent his Divine Sense out to cover over the whole Footloose Sect. Eventually, it came to rest on a disciple near Meng Hao and the others. The disciple was currently looking coldly out at the crowds, inwardly confused about why the Sect suddenly moved up the date for recruiting disciples. Even in the midst of his contemplation, his body suddenly trembled, and then his eyes began to grow brightly. As of this moment, he was no longer himself. Instead, he had become a clone of Patriarch Reliance. He began to walk forward, eyeing Meng Hao and shivering a bit. Then he turned toward the Zhang Wenfang and Nan'er.

Revelation is 2nd Severing, while Reliance is 1st Severing, the gap in power is pretty big. Revelation was confident he could take Reliance in a fight.

With the good luck charm, he was absolutely confident of being able to leave this place safely. If he listened to the ancient voice, he would be facing up against a Spirit Severing eccentric. No matter how cautious and careful he was, it would still be a perilous situation. "There's no time," continued the voice. "If I wanted to possess you, I wouldn't have waited so long to do so. What are you hesitating for, lad? Do you really think your ancient good luck charm can help you escape from a Spirit Severing Cultivator?!"

A 1st Severing Cultivator could have possessed Core Formation Meng Hao, who himself could resist possession from the Ressurection Lily, and had a mind far more powerful than any mortal's:

Almost the same instant that Meng Hao caught sight of the pendant, he suddenly sensed the imminent awakening of the Resurrection Lily, which Shui Dongliu had sealed such a long time ago. The signs of awakening were sudden; in the blink of an eye, an intense pain suddenly filled his body, causing his face to immediately flicker. Meng Hao's Cultivation base back then couldn't even compare to his current one. Despite the fact that the pain washed over him like floodwaters, the only thing that Wu Ling could see was a slight flicker before his expression returned to normal. Meng Hao's hand suddenly lifted up and made a snatching motion. The necklace which the pendant was attached to snapped, and it turned into a beam of silver light as it shot toward Meng Hao. He grabbed it out of the air. "Where did you get this?" Even as he asked the question, his body filled with pain, and his Cultivation base trembled as it fought back and forth with the Resurrection Lily. One tried to shake off its seal, the other tried to push back with full strength. Despite all that was happening, not a trace of it could be seen on Meng Hao's face. [...] A gently glowing shield appeared, with Meng Hao at its center. It completely surrounded the entire courtyard as Meng Hao trembled, then coughed up a mouthful of blood. This blood was not red, but rather, was made of four colors. It transformed into a mist which hovered in mid-air before him, forming into a Resurrection Lily. It faced Meng Hao and let out a soundless shriek that was filled with ferocity and obstinacy. Meng Hao's eyes glowed brightly. He began to rotate his Cultivation base with full power, and then closed his eyes. He did everything he could to suppress the Resurrection Lily. Soon, enough time had passed for an incense stick to burn, whereupon a tremor ran through his body. "You wanna come out? Fine!" Meng Hao gave a cold harrumph, then slapped his bag of holding to produce a scroll painting. It floated in front of him and slowly unfurled, seemingly under the power of some invisible force that wanted to open the Resurrection Lily painting. Meng Hao's eyes widened as he stared coldly at the painting. It trembled as a howl emerged from within that only Meng Hao could hear. They stared at each other, one man, one painting, for nearly an hour within the confines of the protective shield. Eventually, the unyielding howl began to fade slowly away. Finally, the painting fell to the ground with a flop. Meng Hao let out a long sigh and closed his eyes. After a long moment passed, he opened them again and looked recovered. A grim look appeared in his eyes. "So, it's actually been awake for a while!" An angry glint flickered in his eyes. The power exhibited by the Resurrection Lily in their struggle just now was extremely intense, and was obviously nothing like the power that would manifest had it just awakened. On the contrary, it seemed it had waited and built up its strength in an attempt to break through its seal in one fell swoop.

The Lily tries to take over the body and destroy one's mind:

"After this, the flower will bloom a third time," said the man, his voice filled with profundity. "Your… your mind will be lost, your life will be gone. Your body will transform into a three-colored Resurrection Lily. The person who planted the seed in you will come to pick the flower. Sometime after the transformation, you will turn into a four-colored Resurrection Lily.

Meng Hao here shows that Cultivators can resist possession just with the power of their Cultivation base (Revelation was far more powerful than Meng at this point):

"Now, as for this Resurrection Lily…." A cold smile suddenly twisted his lips. He had long since predicted that the Resurrection Lily would not let a crucial moment in his cultivation pass without trying to make a move. He knew that it would appear! Originally he thought it would attempt to possess him when the Heavenly Tribulation hit. However, apparently it thought right now was the best opportunity. "For you to appear right now is actually quite convenient! If Heavenly Tribulation really does come, you could cause me quite a bit of frustration." Smiling coldly, he sat down cross-legged. Ignoring the Resurrection Lily's explosive rise, he lifted his hand and pointed at one of the Nascent Souls. Immediately, the Metal Nascent Soul floated down. Its face was covered with a cold smile just like Meng Hao's as it sank down into the top of his head. It sank down to appear in the empty space in his dantian region that his Gold Core had previously occupied. "This time, I'll give you a chance to… have a full on fight!" As Meng Hao closed his eyes, majestic Cultivation base power exploded out from the Metal Nascent Soul to crush down onto the Resurrection Lily. The Resurrection Lily seemed to go mad and it let out a soundless roar. Shockingly, directly behind Meng Hao appeared the image of a blindingly bright four-colored Resurrection Lily, swaying back and forth ferociously. It was in this moment that the Resurrection Lily seized control of Meng Hao's legs. Meng Hao lost all feeling in them as the struggle for control over his body erupted. The feeling quickly spread into his arms. The four-colored Resurrection Lily swayed back and forth in a very bizarre fashion. It seemed as if it had been preparing for many years to make this counterattack against Meng Hao. When it made its move, it would attack with complete ruthlessness. "I have to give you some credit," said Meng Hao coolly. "You're much better this time than you were before." After all this time, he was very familiar with the Resurrection Lily, and knew that it was sentient. Even as he spoke, the Wood Nascent Soul began to emanate a green light as it sank into the top of Meng Hao's head. It quickly reached his dantian region, whereupon Meng Hao unhesitatingly superimposed it over the Metal Nascent Soul. The two… combined into one! As soon as the two Nascent Souls combined into one, a roaring sound filled Meng Hao's mind. He instantly felt his Cultivation base… rising up rapidly!! [...] The Resurrection Lily let out another soundless roar as its struggling increased in intensity. Whereas before, it had occupied a position of incredible superiority, it was now forced to defend relentlessly against Meng Hao. It did not want to allow Meng Hao to retake the parts of his body that it had already possessed. [...] The Resurrection Lily was emitting a piercing howl. The sound of it could not be heard by any outsider, only Meng Hao, who could hear it quite clearly. The Resurrection Lily was completely incapable of standing up to the power of Meng Hao's three combined elements. It instantly lost control of Meng Hao's arms, and was forced to retreat back to its position within Meng Hao's possessed legs. "I don't need to expend much effort to suppress you," said Meng Hao coolly. "After all, this is a direct conflict, and you aren't even close to being a match for me! What makes you think you're qualified to even TRY to possess me!? "You are me, but I… am not you!" A sea of flames erupted from the Fire Nascent Soul as it floated down and merged into his body. It then appeared in his dantian region, where it overlapped and then combined with the Metal, Wood, and Water Nascent Souls.

 

[InfiniteSped]

bump

 

[Nepuko]

bump

 

[ZackMoon1234]

Lord Revelation FRA

 

[InfiniteSped]

So,

Iihiko: 5 (Emperor, Iapitus, Fire, Goiji, Naeblis) or 6 (Agnaa seemed to change his mind about the power null, but didn't post anything after the feats for possession resistance, so idk).

Revelation: 3 (Nepuko, Zack, me)

Although Iihiko's FRA were based on the power-null, which shouldn't work based on that other thread, so I'm not sure if those would count.

 

[Daoist_kon]

lord revy stomps

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Reveletaion slaps pretty hard here,