Ikki Kurogane vs Mori Jin Tredux

[Sir_Ovens]

Mori's shockwaves are far greater than anything Rakudai has. GoH characters can open canyons in the ground all the way to the other side of the planet if they try hard enough. With the AP difference, Ikki isn't coming back from a well placed kick or punch. Freezing the sea and vapour only gives Mori's cloud more control over the area. This is the same cloud that can sense where Ikki is at any given point of time so Trackless Step is moot.

Everything else is kinda bunk if he can't even reach Mori.

Mori has fought for about a year straight with almost no rest in between. His endurance is arguably better than Dusik, who can go almost 2 years without food or water doing nothing but fighting Zeus in his sleep.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

They're greater in range, not that much in area they can still be dodged from a great distance. He is definitely coming back, he get's scattered, he can just reform and come back just fine. What control would it have? Why would it even matter? The cloud can sense him, but Mori can't. And Ikki can also turn invisible on top of Trackless Step.

Some of those don't even need to reach mori though? Like drowning him by putting water around his face, freezing the area to make him inhale vapor etc.

The 2nd is just self sustenance.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Ikki is also a desperado in this key btw, in case it wasn't obvious.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

The cloud tells Mori where opponents are. Invisibility won't stop the cloud since he would have to basically dodge an omnipresent gas.

Anything water related is negated by the could since all moisture around Mori will turn into the cloud itself.

Except that it's still a stamina feat any way you put it. He's not resting in his sleep, he's still fully conscious of his actions.

 

[PrettyFearMachine]

Yeah I don't see this fight being anything more than manslaughter for Mori.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

Also, Desperado can be overcome with strong enough willpower. I've seen the scans.

 

[Schnee_One]

Wait how is Ikki only getting blown back by a shockwave launched from a 4B?

 

[Firephoenixearl]

The cloud tells Mori where opponents are. Invisibility won't stop the cloud since he would have to basically dodge an omnipresent gas.

Anything water related is negated by the could since all moisture around Mori will turn into the cloud itself.

Except that it's still a stamina feat any way you put it. He's not resting in his sleep, he's still fully conscious of his actions.

He kind of controls the gas if need be though? Also the cloud can tell mori where gas is??? How would it even be able to tell the difference?

The cloud kind of gets negated by vapor and water manip though....

No, otherwise any person with self sustenance would have inf stamina cus they would never need to sleep.

Also, Desperado can be overcome with strong enough willpower. I've seen the scans.

Ugh....when?

Wait how is Ikki only getting blown back by a shockwave launched from a 4B?

What else could happen?

 

[Schnee_One]

Him getting ******* vaporized by the shockwave

Imagine a normal human being hit by the shockwave of a Nuke and multipliy it by trillions of times

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Yeah I don't see this fight being anything more than manslaughter for Mori.

...Mori kind of lacks ways to put Ikki down though....how is it even a manslaughter?

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Him getting ******* vaporized by the shockwave

Imagine a normal human being hit by the shockwave of a Nuke and multipliy it by trillions of times

Thank god he's already vapor though amirite?

 

[Schnee_One]

He’s not vapor he’s water.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

You provided this scan that says a strong egoist can overcome Desperado.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

He’s not vapor he’s water.

He's vapor.

You provided this scan that says a strong egoist can overcome Desperado.

Funny cus that scan also says Stella who specifically had to become a desperado to fight against Desperados.

 

[Schnee_One]

Actually wait, he gets it from Shizuku yes?

Cause it’s not a passive intangibility, he gets hit by a shockwave without it and he’s gone

 

[Sir_Ovens]

Then it's just a verse mechanic. Having strong willpower turns you into a Desperado in Rakudai, so if I throw Goku into Rakudai, he's get Desperado too. Verse equalization doesn't give powers, but inherent weaknesses are free game.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Actually wait, he gets it from Shizuku yes?

Cause it’s not a passive intangibility, he gets hit by a shockwave without it and he’s gone

It's not passive, but he can turn it on whenever he wants, which means he senses the shockwave and yeets his physical body.

Then it's just a verse mechanic. Having strong willpower turns you into a Desperado in Rakudai, so if I throw Goku into Rakudai, he's get Desperado too. Verse equalization doesn't give powers, but inherent weaknesses are free game.

Not really. Stella had the same ego, she couldn't counter Desperado hax before she became a desperado. Also that's only for the fear hax, the fate hax still works.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

Did she become a Desperado through sheer willpower? Strong enough to "overcome fate"?

 

[Firephoenixearl]

That's how all desperados become desperados. But doesn't change the fact that her ego was doing jack for her before becoming a desperado. Only AFTER becoming a desperado she was safe from the fear hax.

But then again Ikki doesn't even have fear hax. He only has fate hax (not passive but it's there).

 

[Sir_Ovens]

I still don't see how having greater willpower than Stella would not grant someone resistance since by proxy, they would already have become a Desperado.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

I still don't see how having greater willpower than Stella would not grant someone resistance since by proxy, they would already have become a Desperado.

But they don't. That argument is so stupid it's like saying "Ikki should have achieved true magic if it were by Fate standards so he has true magic now". Like...you don't give people stuff like that. Idk what you're on right now ovens, but when has anyone ever done that?

And again Ikki doesn't even have those unless he's really mad.

 

[Schnee_One]

Secondary note: I wonder if Ikki can beat Edel now.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Secondary note: I wonder if Ikki can beat Edel now.

I mean, this technically isn't "ikki". Cus it's a fusion between Shizuku and Ikki with ikki's appearance. But yeah tbh i can't see any way for Edel to win. I said a similar thing back in the day about Shizuku vs Edelweiss. There is just nothing Edelweiss can do against the elemental intangibility.

Edit: But seeing how edel shows a new bullshit power every time she appears on screen, if that fight ever happens Edel will pull out another ability.

 

[Schnee_One]

I thought Rakudai was over?

 

[Firephoenixearl]

No. It entered the last arc, so it's gonna end in a couple of volumes i guess. Right after ikki becomes 1-A.

 

[RatherClueless]

But they don't. That argument is so stupid it's like saying "Ikki should have achieved true magic if it were by Fate standards so he has true magic now". Like...you don't give people stuff like that. Idk what you're on right now ovens, but when has anyone ever done that?

And again Ikki doesn't even have those unless he's really mad.

Ive seen people argue that Sasuke would soul crush Ichigo under verse equal, since Sasuke has more chakra than Ichigo has reiatsu, so this isn't a first for me. There actually were two threads about this very topic, with both of them getting shut down without a conclusioin, since they turned incredibly toxic very fast. Surprisingly, both sides were more or less equally supported.

I mean, this technically isn't "ikki". Cus it's a fusion between Shizuku and Ikki with ikki's appearance. But yeah tbh i can't see any way for Edel to win. I said a similar thing back in the day about Shizuku vs Edelweiss. There is just nothing Edelweiss can do against the elemental intangibility.

Edit: But seeing how edel shows a new bullshit power every time she appears on screen, if that fight ever happens Edel will pull out another ability.

Watch her cut his very being with "skill".

 

[Schnee_One]

Verse equalization is stupid in general

Fight me

 

[RatherClueless]

Verse equalization is stupid in general

Fight me

I agree tho

 

[Schnee_One]

Fight settled peacefully

 

[Sir_Ovens]

We've been over this. Verse specific abilities don't carry over to other verses, but their weakness do. If resisting Desperado requires strong willpower, it is fair game in verse equalization.

 

[Zencha9]

from what i've seen equalization Desperado is unreasonable because it gives the characters from the other setting a power/status that they don't have

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Ive seen people argue that Sasuke would soul crush Ichigo under verse equal, since Sasuke has more chakra than Ichigo has reiatsu, so this isn't a first for me. There actually were two threads about this very topic, with both of them getting shut down without a conclusioin, since they turned incredibly toxic very fast. Surprisingly, both sides were more or less equally supported.

That is so unbelievably stupid. I am not astounded though i've seen a lot of people argue for much dumber shit. We say "Character x fights character Y" not "what if character X was born in Y's verse and gained all the powers like that?". It starts being kinda ******** once people start pushing verse equalization too hard.

Otherwise let's equalize all magic. Cus by verse equalization they are the same so if in 1 verse magic is 1-B by nature, every verse should have 1-B magic because if they were born there they would have 1-B magic instead of 3D magic.

Everyone who has shown good will and fights a rakudai character becomes a desperado and has all desperado passives by default. Every demon who fights SMT gets all of the demon traits of SMT demons.

Smh, dumb ass topics.

Verse equalization is stupid in general

Fight me

I don't disagree, but i don't agree either. Verse Equalization is supposed to be a simple topic that "oh well x source is the same as y source, let's say they're the same so the interaction makes more sense". It's when people REALLY try to push it's limits that it starts being kinda stupid. Similar in nature to speed equalization, it's just a "oh well speed isn't a factor" card, but it stops being as simple as it should be cus people really try to push it.

We've been over this. Verse specific abilities don't carry over to other verses, but their weakness do. If resisting Desperado requires strong willpower, it is fair game in verse equalization.

The weakness isn't a real weakness unless you're in that verse though. It's not sheer willpower that gives you that "it's the willpower to break the chains of fate".

 

[Sir_Ovens]

Weaknesses carry over in verse equalization. That was the agreed upon standard. It would be dumb not to, like DC Martian physiology not being weak to fire.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Weaknesses carry over in verse equalization. That was the agreed upon standard. It would be dumb not to, like DC Martian physiology not being weak to fire.

Not if those weakness clearly don't work on their work.

It would be fine if stella before becoming a desperado could just be like "yeah i'll **** you up" and it worked against edel. But guess what, she was way more confident against Edel than she was against Xiaoli. She still shat her pants.

The weakness of the ability carries over, not the result of having strong will. The weakness of desperado fear is 1) throwing your life away and 2) becoming a desperado yourself.

 

[RatherClueless]

Weaknesses carry over in verse equalization. That was the agreed upon standard. It would be dumb not to, like DC Martian physiology not being weak to fire.

I can remember 2 threads that tried clearing this up and both got shut down within hours, without finding any common ground, so where was that ever agreed upon?

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

Even if Mori's kicks don't somehow throw Ikki a few light years away or just atomize him in general, which they do and I'm only saying this to propose that this isn't the only reason Mori wins, Mori can just instantly ionize Shikki with Geundoowun.

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

also everyone seems to have forgotten that Mori Jin has NPI.

so Shikki literally has nothing going for him. He can't get close enough to Mori to attack without being effectively erased from existence, he can't hide anywhere because of Mori's AoE, Desperado passives don't work as stated above, and every single one of the other main Ikki arguments has been dealt with before in other threads by an earlier, weaker version of Mori Jin.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Even if Mori's kicks don't somehow throw Ikki a few light years away or just atomize him in general, which they do and I'm only saying this to propose that this isn't the only reason Mori wins, Mori can just instantly ionize Shikki with Geundoowun.

Ionize? Wot?

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

Mori slaps Shikki with lightning.

Shikki becomes part of an ocean of plasma.

Is what I am saying.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

also everyone seems to have forgotten that Mori Jin has NPI.

so Shikki literally has nothing going for him. He can't get close enough to Mori to attack without being effectively erased from existence,

What type of NPI what has he affected before?

he can't hide anywhere because of Mori's AoE, Desperado passives don't work as stated above,

As wrongly stated above. Also that's passives, which ikki doesn't even have, what about the actives?

and every single one of the other main Ikki arguments has been dealt with before in other threads by an earlier, weaker version of Mori Jin.

Funny cus last one was Mori with a 3 tier advantage and ikki couldn't 1 shot. Also last time i remember it being a FRA fest so let's not go in there.

Mori slaps Shikki with lightning.

Shikki becomes part of an ocean of plasma.

Is what I am saying.

Not really. Lightning doesn't turn ppl to plasma. Also lightning not gonna have a good time against ultrapure water.