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Immeasurable and Irrelevant speed ratings

Dino_Ranger_Black

Dino_Ranger_Black

VS Battles
Retired
2,031
988
Hello everyone. DRB here. I'm here to discuss a topic I've been finding controversal for some time now. Revsing some of the pages, I noticed certain characters such as Time Eater, Super Dimentio, Dialga, Palkia, and Arceus (via powerscaling) having Infinite or Immeasurable speed for being able to move in time-space continuum. I find this rather odd and glaring because multiple characters who aren't even know for their speed such as Eggma and the King of Fighters cast are able to travel and move accross these white empty voids as well. Heck, Mario, who's speed was powerscaled to Super Dimentio with the Pure Hearts in his Paper Mario page, did it too. And this was BEFORE he got all of the Pure Hearts.

I believe we shouldn't scale a character's speed or regard them as Infinite or Immeasurable based from the sole fact they were able to simply travel across a white time-space continuum. Not only it's extremely common in fiction, humorous or not, it obviously doesn't follow our real world logic and doesn't seem to imply any sense of speed to accomplish such.
 
I can agree with this, several time in fiction a void where time doesn't exist just means that the "time" there is independent to the time of other dimension, and several other times character moves in the void in the same way that they moves in real time.
 
Is this a Staff discussion? Can I comment here?

Assuming that V = S / t, a being that moves outside S / t consequently moves outside V. I believe it is a logical principle to assume a speed by moving in a void without time and space, considering this aspect.
 
^yeah, you can comment here for now. About your point, that is just valid if character can move at time stop or dilated time, and generally the ones that can do that just have immunity; I think that the timeless void works like a time stop, anyone inside it can move normally, and in theory, anyone outside shouldn't be moving cuz time is stopped, like that episode of Futurama.
 
I don't see why moving in a still time could apply in some cases while moving in the void in the absence of time and space would not be. Why would moving in a stopped time be superior to moving out of it?

Of course I will only comment here for now, soon someone appears and changes this topic to the painel Staff Discussion, so it's not even worth I commenting on. So I'm just looking at the discussion. By the way, what does DarkLK think about it?
 
Well this is interesting. I will get back to work at where I am, but I gonna add some input here as I can. For Diagla, Palkia, and Arceus, each one reside in their own dimension that is completely seperate from one another and ain't connected to one another. Diagla and Palkia has clashed in the movie and did destroyed space-time as they were clashing so their speed will remain at infinite at the time being. The dimensions are not 3D, but is 4D as they have form it. Arceus was said to transcend time and space making him omnipresent in his unsealed form in game canon IIRC.
 
Here is what DarkLK replied the last two times that I asked him about it:

"You know, when a man goes into the water, he can swim. But he can not swim on land. The same can be with beings who goes beyond space-time. When they are out of this they will have immeasurable speed. But not the fact that this speed will remain then they are within the continuum."

"Some characters in some fiction are able to go into hyperspace or to travel through time at the expense of achieving a certain speed (the speed of light for example or 88 mph). Technically, such travel in time can be classified as an immeasurable speed, but it is not the basic speed of a character. This is not the same as if the character has an immeasurable speed that applicable in the battle and gives immeasurable reaction. This is how to compare teleportation and infinite speed. Nevertheless, some of the characters during such travels can go to some hyper-continuum where they can even react to the movement of each other. In this case it may be immeasurable speed. But this rate will not be maintained in the normal continuum. I have already given the analogy with the ability to swim that requires being in the water."
 
Eh, this isn't the place to discuss that, this is overall more about voids and the speed as a result, to which I agree with Matt
 
well moving without the presence of psace or time would be outside the definition of speed since there is no space or time to cover, hence making any mpvement undefined

so i think this should be in the realms of "irrelevant" speed since the concept of speed does not even apply here if it is a true void (as in has no axis of space or time)


but it all depends on what kind if a void it is, if it is not a legitimate void, then it will be looked at casee by case
 
We definitely cannot rate any non-1-A characters as having irrelevant speed.
 
Because 1. the concept of time and space can be argued to exist in a void.2. It depend on how we interpret the definition of a void. 3. To be irrelevant mean you need to beyond all dimensions and concepts for that kind of speed. It is like saying a 4 dimensional being having Irrelevant speed which it in fact they are slower than that.
 
well not really

i mean in a true void there is no dimensions at all no spatial or temporal, hence the concept of speed does not exist at all


and moving there would be paradoxical, i think that should be classified as irrelevant


or maybe we can create a new speed classificcation for that
 
the point is, without time, there can be no speed, it is not a ranked dimension, it is always an N+1 rank


so i think it will be better if we made a new term for that
 
According to DarkLK's past replies to me, characters within fiction can recurrently be placed in a dimensionless environment without being 1-A themselves. The same should apply for their speeds.

To truly have irrelevant speed, the nature of the character itself must be completely beyond all concepts of space and time, not simply present within such an environment. This is a fundamental property of our tiering system, and definitely not up for discussion.
 
the thing is most voids in fiction arent true voids

and in true voids, the speed for moving would be irrelevant

and even existing in a true void would be an impossibility for anyone below 1-A
 
Actually, real voids doesn't exist, we use theoric physic. Anyway, I prefer to rate characters infinite speed via statement, similar way with 3-A and High 3-A
 
As I mentioned earlier, there is not clear classification of what a true void will legit be especially when it is up to interpretation of a said void and the nature of the void itself. If the void have space and time in it, then it will be petty much depend on how it goes. Also @Antvas does have a point there as he has discuss this with DarkLK earlier.
 
Again, this is not how DarkLK has consistently described this concept in the past to me, and he was the one who designed the tiering system in the first place.

An example would be when the human H.P. Lovecraft main character was brought into beyond dimensional space by Nyarlathotep. Fiction recurrently does not follow your conceptions regarding this issue.

Pushing towards changing our standards for beyond dimensional space would be directly dangerous for the integrity of our system, so I would appreciate if you immediately and permanently drop the issue. Thank you.
 
@Ant Going back to what DarkLP stated, is he implying they have infinite speed in a void with no space or time but regular speed in an area where there's actually space and time? I can't say it works that way......
 
@DRB

I do not know, but there are cases within fiction when characters that are not beyond dimensional themselves have been brought into such an abstract metaphysical environment, without embodying such a nature themselves.

I have asked him to comment here in any case.
 
@TLT1 Also, you know our rules about attempting to undermine the tiering system. This is the very fundament of our wiki, so I would appreciate if you do not do so ever again. Thank you.
 
Antvasima said:
Pushing towards changing our standards for beyond dimensional space would be directly dangerous for the integrity of our system, so I would appreciate if you immediately and permanently drop the issue. Thank you.
Click to expand...
Gotta be honest here Ant that's not really an argument. It'd be like the Supreme Court shutting something down because that would require changing the law and that'd be hard to do. That doesn't mean the man proposing the case is wrong per se.

The OP has a point, it is extremely common in fiction to state things as "BEYOND TIME AND SPACE" when really they just mean "removed from our mainstream universe."

If DarkLP's point is that characters change speed depending on location (going from a place where you swim through solids to a place where one swims through water) then either way that'd still undermine the system because that'd just say "Infinite speed" is arbitrary and would vary by location anyway.
 
It should be a case by case study but if it turns out to be a situation like DarkLK described it would already be known. As for what TLT said, Hop is unsure, but we should not change rules or how things work. The system is logically put together, but maybe we should examine cases like you said a bit more. We don't need to touch the tiering system.
 
@LordXcano My apologies, but attempting to dismantle our tiering system is the most extreme offense within the wiki. This is the foundation that our entire wiki is built upon, and not up for discussion, even for staff members. It is seen as an attack on our entire community. Again, I would appreciate if you do not make an effort to push the issue. Thank you.
 
Ok, what i said applies to only true voids and any dnon 1-A cant really exist in a legit void since it would be a paradox


soo yeah it would probably only apply to that one case out there somewhere in fiction


also i see your point LordXcano
 
The Living Tribunal1 said:
@Antonio

if we used legitimate math and physics then we would need to re-work most of the tiering system :/
Click to expand...
I am referring to this, with similar topics repeatedly popping up from TLT1, despite that we have talked about it several times. It is extremely dangerous for the integrity of our community.
 
Given that this turned into an extremely sensitive subject, I moved the thread to the staff only forum.
 
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