Immeasurable speed characters updating second round

[Thelastmlg]

Sorry i'm lost, was the removal rejected and now we are analisying immensurable characters and their justifications?

 

[Antvasima]

Nicol Bolas has immeasurable speed.

Likely Immeasurable (Able to exist outside the normal planes of the multiverse, having to willingly restrict himself in order to manifest within such a lower reality. Unaffected by changes to the timestream on a multiversal scale and Teferi's time manipulation)

Does this qualify?

I do not think so at least.

 

[Thelastmlg]

That sounds like higher dimensional existence, acausality type 4 and resistance to time manip, which are common for immensurables but not really a justification

 

[Antvasima]

Ok, so here's basically the whole context regarding the whole transcending space and time stuff, the boundary does have statements of transcending space and time, and the whole realm can allow time travel for anyone capable of moving in the realm, though there's a bit more stuff I found that could help immeasurable speed. One of the characters explained that he went forward in time when he got to the Boundary, and after saying that, someone claims that he transcends time and space for being capable of time traveling. So if I'm not mistaken merely having the statement of transcending time and space isn't enough, and there needs to be proof for actual time travel through said statement through movement. If that's the case this should be the case given more than half the cast is capable of moving in the realm, and given how there's a statement of them being beyond time and space thanks to doing that, it should scale to the rest of the characters who replicated that feat. There's also the fact that the Black Beast is a literal out of control gate to the boundary, giving it access to the Boundary's powers given its out of control nature compared to normal cauldrons. I wanna know if this can qualify for immeasurable speed.

@Promestein @AKM sama @DarkDragonMedeus @Elizhaa @DontTalkDT @Ultima_Reality @Sera_EX

I would appreciate if you could help out with evaluating if this qualifies for immeasurable speed.

 

[Antvasima]

Sorry i'm lost, was the removal rejected and now we are analisying immensurable characters and their justifications?

We will not remove immeasurable speed as a definition, but lots of characters have it without being qualified.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Based on some of my laid out descriptions, I personally don't think that's quite enough to qualify. I do see he acknowledges that "Transcending time and space" is not enough as that can qualify as simply resistance and/or space, time and dimensional travel. But looking over the other details, it appears to just be a good ranged time travel and dimensional travel.

 

[Theglassman12]

How is it not enough to qualify when he got that statement of transcending time and space via time traveling? Celestial Pegasus mentioned the same thing for some of his characters and that was enough for immeasurable speed and even Yuri didn't question it, so why is the same not applicable for them?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Recieving "Time travel via transcending time" sounds redundant with the whole "It's not quite immeasurable speed but can qualify has having time travel as an ability".

 

[Theglassman12]

it's not as an ability though, it's literally possible by moving through time by the characters themselves. This isn't a trunks time machine or portal through time thing that the characters do, they literally move through time in the Boundary to time travel.

 

[liluzivert]

https://vsbattles.com/threads/immeasurable-speed-sonic-time-to-perish.110922/ here. go crazy

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Basically, the sort answer is either one of two things, the character perceives linear time as a spatial dimension they roam around freely, or they moves at speeds described as "Faster than instantaneous". Traveling through time via movement is usually considered simple FTL speed; though it could be Immeasurable. Hopping or teleporting to different time periods is also not quite Immeasurable speed.

Though, if it's casual time travel via movement and two characters are able to fight while simultaneously moving all across time and space who showcasing immunity to the linear flow of time and space, that can also qualify. I'm guessing also NOT like they're just running laps around the earth faster than it rotates. But being able to physically move in time without really needing to run spatially. I'm overall neutral, but I think that it might after thinking it over.

 

[Theglassman12]

For a series like BlazBlue they never use FTL = time travel, it’s always been via moving through time in a realm and just arriving where they want to go in any point in time, or any alternate timeline.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I think Immeasurable is most likely fine in that case.

 

[Theglassman12]

If there’s no other questions about this by tomorrow, I’ll apply the changes to the pages.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

I think Immeasurable is most likely fine in that case.

Ooh, can I ask you the same? You've read my blog on Persona's Collective Unconsciousness, and the multiple statements of it being superior/transcending/having no time at all, and how they can travel through linear time through the Velvet Room (with numerous other realms being even deeper than that), the nexus of all realities, and end up in an entirely new universe without any temporal paradoxes due to how superior it is to the concept of time, making the impossible possible with just sheer speed.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I'll check it later Milly, tied up IRL atm.

But I also forgot to mention that Note 3 on the Speed page might need more polishing. Some of the words of it are good points such as "They're already there" as opposed to someone actively moving to react to something.

But the 2nd paragraph kind of makes too many assumptions. It's not that Space-Time Omnipresents automatically reacts to every attack, it's just that even characters with reaction speeds can't really hit them and their attacks can already land hits on Immeasurable speeds via sheer AoE and not so much speed. It's not quite a defualt that everyone with space-time omnipresence has Immeasurable combat speed and reactions so much as it's their sheer size.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

I'll check it later Milly, tied up IRL atm.

Bet, I'll add more stuff to further support my case. By tomorrow they'll be a bunch of new stuff.

 

[Theglassman12]

Btw, https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Superboy-Prime?mobile-app=false

Superboy’s 2-B key is immeasurable for being a sentient timeline and being outside the flow of time, is that considered immeasurable now or not?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

He's actually scaled from Time Trapper by the looks of it; and Time Trapper exists outside the flow of linear time. That's not always Immeasurable speed either, but I think there were other details + has shown to be comparable if not superior to certain versions of Flash who have more examples of Immeasurable speed.

 

[Antvasima]

I think that Medeus seems to have a good grasp of how immeasurable speed works.

Would you be willing to help make the definitions in the Speed page easier to understand?

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

He's actually scaled from Time Trapper by the looks of it; and Time Trapper exists outside the flow of linear time. That's not always Immeasurable speed either, but I think there were other details + has shown to be comparable if not superior to certain versions of Flash who have more examples of Immeasurable speed.

Blog is fully updated, you'll only need to read the Velvet Room and Collective Unconscious sections to understand why I say immeasurable.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I'll update the footnotes to the Omnipresent Space-Time descriptions, but I'm in the middle of debating a few controversial threads or about to. But this is basically the paragraph I'd like to change.

A being that is not only omnipresent throughout space, but also time, would also be able to react to every attack from a being with normal speed before the opponent would even begin to throw the attack. This is the case because such a being would exist throughout all of time, experiencing past, presence and future at once while not being bound to the normal flow of time.

It causes confusion because the wording isn't exactly they're reacting every character with normal speed via sheer speed, but rather that they already reached them without even trying due to being already there before they attacked. I would probably change it to something like this.

A being that is not only omnipresent throughout space, but also time, would be evading every attack from a being with normal speed without actually needing to react to it. They're already there both before they attacked, while they're attacking, and after they already attacked. Their perception of time of time would be unbounded from time, but this may not have effect on their reactions. Said characters may logically be able to land hits on characters with Immeasurable speed, but it may not count as Immeasurable attack speed but rather the sheer area of effect may reach due to the Immeasurable speed character lacking space to avoid it.

I'm open for better wording or possibly better language flow. And in addition to that, I may add another paragraph.

It is relatively common in fiction for a non omnipresent character to fight on par with a space-time omnipresent character. These fight scenes should be analyzed case by case but it's not a default assumption for the former character to have Immeasurable speeds. Just because a character who is omnipresent across time is not evidence for Immeasurable combat speeds or reactions. Simply having temporal omnipresence does necessary make every attack the Omnipresent character attacks have the necessary area of effect. And it also does not always require Immeasurable speed to evade and attack with temporal area of effects as some characters with Acausality or Dimensional Travel may be capable of evading it even with finite reactions.

Same as the last proposal, I'm also open for better language flow suggestions.

 

[Theuser789]

Yeah no, this feels too much as if you are writting this as a counter to this thread, especially that last paragraph, I don't mind disagreement but changing the rules without even commenting on the thread is just too much

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I'm working on a counterargument, but I have a bunch of notifications and side conversations going on all at once ATM.

 

[ElixirBlue]

It is relatively common in fiction for a non omnipresent character to fight on par with a space-time omnipresent character.

I mean, you are claiming this is common.

Time Travel via lower Speed is common throughout fiction (See “Back to the Future”, the Flash in CW, etc)

But I don’t believe it’s common for a non Omnipresent being to fight on par with a space and time Omnipresent being.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Fighting against an Omnipresent being such as Soalris is not common at all, so I have no idea why you would want to specify that

 

[Theuser789]

I'm working on a counterargument, but I have a bunch of notifications and side conversations going on all at once ATM.

Then do it before changing the rules mid thread, that is incredible disrespectful

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Actually, I've heard of several verses where the main antagonist is omnipresent but the protagonist isn't and wasn't accepted as Immeasurable. Plenty in Marvel in DC obviously, but also Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann isn't Immeasurable despite Anti-Spiral being omnipresent across the 11-D multiverse. Megaman.EXE also fought multiple Omnipresent foes but isn't Immeasurable. And there's a big list of others on the tip of my tongue from various comic book verses like Power Ranges, Transformers, TMNT, ect.

It isn't disrespectful, the rules come first and updating the big list of verses one by one come second. And yes, even plenty of other verses may also be hit even harder; been okay with verses I like too. As much as I'm also okay with upgrading verses I'm neutral towards and verses I dislike even if the proposal gets rejected.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

Actually, I've heard of several verses where the main antagonist is omnipresent but the protagonist isn't and wasn't accepted as Immeasurable. Plenty in Marvel in DC obviously, but also Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann isn't Immeasurable despite Anti-Spiral being omnipresent across the 11-D multiverse. Megaman.EXE also fought multiple Omnipresent foes but isn't Immeasurable. And there's a big list of others on the tip of my tongue from various comic book verses like Power Ranges, Transformers, TMNT, ect.

Imagine spamming Omnipresence and giving zero context about the feats. This posts reeks of false equivalence and rat tactics.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Actually, I've heard of several verses where the main antagonist is omnipresent but the protagonist isn't and wasn't accepted as Immeasurable. Plenty in Marvel in DC obviously, but also Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann isn't Immeasurable despite Anti-Spiral being omnipresent across the 11-D multiverse. Megaman.EXE also fought multiple Omnipresent foes but isn't Immeasurable. And there's a big list of others on the tip of my tongue from various comic book verses like Power Ranges, Transformers, TMNT, ect.

It isn't disrespectful, the rules come first and updating the big list of verses one by one come second. And yes, even plenty of other verses may also be hit even harder; been okay with verses I like too. As much as I'm also okay with upgrading verses I'm neutral towards and verses I dislike even if the proposal gets rejected.

Are they also omnipresent across time? Since usually omnipresent character are either stay that way and don't die or something, or that they send Avatars to fight for them, and the hero is taking on the Avatars (such as with the Creation Trio + Arceus in Pokemon). And some are just destroyed by an AoE attack, like what happened to Infinite Zamasu when Zeno erased him

 

[ElixirBlue]

Plenty in Marvel in DC obviously

Marvel and DC aren’t great examples for it being common, because of how the wiki treats everything Marvel and DC has even done.

Megaman.EXE also fought multiple Omnipresent foes but isn't Immeasurable.

Own reasons for that.

but also Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann isn't Immeasurable despite Anti-Spiral being omnipresent across the 11-D multiverse

I don’t see that on his wiki page. It says Omnipresent in their own realm, but doesn’t say they were Omnipresent when fighting Simon.

Better examples?

 

[Theuser789]

Changing the rules as a direct response is not alright, it simply isn't, if you don't have the respect to argue something and then would rather use your power to change a rule so that every argument against you is invalid is just a scummy

It is disrespectful because all the arguments made, all the hours I wasted, are worthless because can change the rules to simply make me wrong just like that, I don't see why someone should contribute to the wikia if their oppinion is that worthless

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

Changing the rules as a direct response is a literal concession lmfao.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I've worked hours, days, and even years on multiple projects for other verses only for it to be shot down by a single rule change, and I was disappointed to say the least. But I never attacked said staff members for making said rules or held it against them.

But, I'm writing up my response in the other thread regardless, Antvasima is also probably busy ATM but I wrote it so he can take a look at my proposals when I have time. Still those were other pointers discussed on the previous threads in which YuriAkuto, and Antoniofer also agreed non omnipresent characters keeping up with omnipresent foes isn't Immeasurable by default.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Omnipresence often doesn't translate to any movement speed when you actually fight the dude.

Dormammu is omnipresent across his dimension but that doesn't mean shit when people fight him there. He just fights like normal.

 

[Theuser789]

Nobody wrotte that rule as a direct response to your points just to shut you down in a thread without even responding to you, and if they did they are wrong and you should have definitvely complained

Not going to continue this after this post, but this attitude made me seriosly not even want to do anything on the wikia if someone can do something like this in such an obvious way that several people saw through

 

[ElixirBlue]

I've worked hours, days, and even years on multiple projects for other verses only for it to be shot down by a single rule change

I am sorry to hear that.

Dormammu is omnipresent across his dimension but that doesn't mean shit when people fight him there. He just fights like normal.

Marvel and DC aren’t great examples for it being common, because of how the wiki treats everything Marvel and DC has even done.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

@ElixirBlue thank you for your concern.

@Theuser789 I didn't mean any harm, but actually; I didn't really get mad when the timeless void standards got nuked. Matt allegedly did it because of Dragon Ball Heroes, and Dragon Ball fans were understandably upset with him. I didn't want to hold it against either side. And it did downgrade Zelda and Xenoblade's speed ratings which I was fine with. And it was more so Kepekley who has been suspected of doing things suspicious or just to spite people, myself included. But that's off topic.

 

[00potato]

Omnipresence often doesn't translate to any movement speed when you actually fight the dude.

Dormammu is omnipresent across his dimension but that doesn't mean shit when people fight him there. He just fights like normal.

Because it would be a nightmare to properly animate and make it understandable.

The lore would take precedent because the visuals have a good reason to be that way even with the lore.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I'm talking about comics and books my man if the omnipresent guy fights like a normal person then his omnipresence doesn't mean much for combat.