Immeasurable Speed Sonic, time to PERISH

[liluzivert]

looks like ive chosen death...

Ok, immeasurable speed is getting axed for multiple characters, and going off of the thread in staff discussion, there has been plenty of arguments made against the rating for Super Sonic and co.

The argument DDM made (which is the best argument imo) that temporal omnipresence doesn’t translate to immeasurable speed. Omnipresence doesn’t equate to dodging and the meteors that were thrown could simply not have immeasurable speed. He also made the argument that solaris could just be teleporting to different time periods and the hedgehogs could just be time traveling which I’m iffy on since there isn’t much evidence on that part.

Another argument that was made is that time was shattered and this let the hedgehogs fight Solaris, this is supported by the manual of the game, the “end of the world” portion of it, and the fact that Sonic’s friends can see the fight as well. I’m a bit iffy on this one too.

I’m neutral and maybe leaning towards agreement here. But this was just made for the people who want to argue for the downgrade. (let’s hope this doesn’t go
to shit.)

 

[liluzivert]

bump

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I didn't say Solaris was teleporting to different time periods; I mentioned that's an example of something that doesn't qualify as Immeasurable and I said that during a discussion that had nothing to do with Sonic.

But I do agree with the other points and especially the temporal presence parts.

 

[JJSliderman]

The argument about the hedgehogs each being in a single time period I think is a logical one, but I haven't seen anything in-game outright saying it.

I think the important distinction is whether Solaris was across all of time, or just in three specific points, because the former seems like it would qualify the hedgehogs for Immeasurable speed.

 

[liluzivert]

I didn't say Solaris was teleporting to different time periods; I mentioned that's an example of something that doesn't qualify as Immeasurable and I said that during a discussion that had nothing to do with Sonic.

But I do agree with the other points and especially the temporal presence parts.

ah, my bad. You did bring up some good points, but I will say that I disagree with the hedgehogs using time portals, there’s just no evidence of such. I’m thinking maybe they’re able to fight him because of the rift I’m sure, but overall it’s just kinda vague in general.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

I’ll come back to this in a minute.

 

[The_Axiom_of_Virgo]

Totally not a snarky thread name at all lol!

 

[DatOneWeeb]

Zamasu alt

Zamasu alt

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Time being shattered is definitely an important plot point yes, but a lot of statements seem to overlap each other. Some statements say "Existing across all time periods" while others said only three. It does say, Past, Present, and Future are the names of the three locations, but they've also been called "Periods" in other sources.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Solaris can attack a character such as Silver in the future, and Shadow can dodge it in the past. Same goes for him trying to attack any of the three hedgehogs, who can all dodge attacks from Solaris who can fight all three of them and hit all of them regardless of when they are

 

[ElixirBlue]

I’m thinking maybe they’re able to fight him because of the rift

The Cast were able to survive Solaris because of the Rift but nothing said Solaris was inside the Rift. The Rift being a temporary safeguard from Solaris for people like Elise says as much.

 

[ElixirBlue]

Solaris tag on the thread, pls?

 

[liluzivert]

The Cast were able to survive Solaris because of the Rift but nothing said Solaris was inside the Rift. The Rift being a temporary safeguard from Solaris for people like Elise says as much.

Interesting point, but doesn’t eggman state during the fight that he’s “tied down by the rift”?

Solaris tag on the thread, pls?

idk how, I’m a bit new to this forum.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

looks like ive chosen death...

You have.

Ok, immeasurable speed is getting axed for multiple characters, and going off of the thread in staff discussion, there has been plenty of arguments made against the rating for Super Sonic and co.

Not if I can help it, I cachinnate!

The argument DDM made (which is the best argument imo) that temporal omnipresence doesn’t translate to immeasurable speed.

From the speed page: A being that is not only omnipresent throughout space, but also time, would also be able to react to every attack from a being with normal speed before the opponent would even begin to throw the attack. This is the case because such a being would exist throughout all of time, experiencing past, presence and future at once while not being bound to the normal flow of time.
If you exist throughout the past, present and future at the same time, then you can see things happening throughout all of time at one time. That’s immeasurable reaction speed.

Omnipresence doesn’t equate to dodging and the meteors that were thrown could simply not have immeasurable speed. He also made the argument that solaris could just be teleporting to different time periods and the hedgehogs could just be time traveling which I’m iffy on since there isn’t much evidence on that part.

“But meteors can’t have immeasurable speed” ain’t a refute buddy, and Solaris wasn’t teleporting. Also the hedgehogs aren’t just time traveling. They’re moving so fast that they appear in every single point of time in at the same time. Literally the only way to kill Solaris is to destroy his body across every single point of time.

Another argument that was made is that time was shattered and this let the hedgehogs fight Solaris, this is supported by the manual of the game, the “end of the world” portion of it, and the fact that Sonic’s friends can see the fight as well. I’m a bit iffy on this one too.

What was actually shown and said in the game >>> a throwaway statement from a guidebook. If the timelines were shattered, everyone would be dead. Sonic and Elise also go back in time to where Solaris was still a flame. Time may have been ruptured but not destroyed.

I’m neutral and maybe leaning towards agreement here. But this was just made for the people who want to argue for the downgrade. (let’s hope this doesn’t go
to shit.)

 

[Theuser789]

What are these arguments? They are based on literal false info never actualy stated

The argument DDM made (which is the best argument imo) that temporal omnipresence doesn’t translate to immeasurable speed. Omnipresence doesn’t equate to dodging and the meteors that were thrown could simply not have immeasurable speed. He also made the argument that solaris could just be teleporting to different time periods and the hedgehogs could just be time traveling which I’m iffy on since there isn’t much evidence on that part.

The meteors and other attacks had to have immesurable speed simply via the fact that the same meteor can hit any of hedgehogs no matter where it came in time

Example, Solaris attacks to hit Sonic, then the player switchs to Shadow, the exact same attack will hit him, that is literally immesurable speed

Solaris is never show to teleport, that's some weird headcanon that has literally zero proof, Solaris exists in all of time, he is the same being in all of time, that's why his healthbar is the same in all three hedgehogs

Another argument that was made is that time was shattered and this let the hedgehogs fight Solaris, this is supported by the manual of the game, the “end of the world” portion of it, and the fact that Sonic’s friends can see the fight

That was in the rift, where Solaris was explicitly out of, making the entire argument worthless, that includes the End of the World, that was in the rift and that's why you die if you take too long because Solaris destroys it

Sonic friends never react to the fight, they just cheer you on, they only react between phase 1 and 2 and Solaris visuals. Plus "characters react to Super Sonic" is a fallacious argument because it also applies to all MFTL+ fights, were a FTL cast reacts to far faster characters, that's just a common PIS that should not be just applied to this situation

Interesting point, but doesn’t eggman state during the fight that he’s “tied down by the rift”?

He explicitly says dimension, not rift

All in all I do not see why he should be downgraded, when the new standards would only downgrade Solaris, but not the entire separate reason why the hedgehogs did which was always to the power he still keeps, his temporal onmipresence, and that any new arguments should focus on the standards, since that's all that changed between the threads

 

[ElixirBlue]

Interesting point, but doesn’t eggman state during the fight that he’s “tied down by the rift”?

Because it was the only place Solaris hadn't effected. Solaris's intent was to effect everything. That was the last place to attack.

 

[liluzivert]

these are some really solid points. Though it’s still not clear on whether or not they occupied all parts of time instead of on specific point. I’ll say I’m neutral leaning towards disagreement. Would like to see how those who support the downgrade argue against this.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

It’s the past present and future. It can’t get any more clear cut than that.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

these are some really solid points. Though it’s still not clear on whether or not they occupied all parts of time instead of on specific point. I’ll say I’m neutral leaning towards disagreement. Would like to see how those who support the downgrade argue against this.

The fact that the Solaris can attack all three hedgehogs and hit them with the same attacks regardless of what point in time they actually are is enough evidence that Immeasurable speed is valid

 

[Theuser789]

these are some really solid points. Though it’s still not clear on whether or not they occupied all parts of time instead of on specific point. I’ll say I’m neutral leaning towards disagreement. Would like to see how those who support the downgrade argue against this.

Eggman states that Solaris exists in the past, present and future, not in X, Y and Z dates, past isn't a time period, it's everything that existed prior to the present date, future is everything that will exist, while the present is the current date, so yes it's all periods, I thought the game itself made it very clear, and I don't see why it's being argued when it is completely unrelated to the standard changes

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Actually, the Omnipresent page is considered dated as it's not going to be assumed that having Omnipresent across time and space are default to having Immeasurable combat speed and reactions. And just because an attack has Temporal AoE doesn't mean it moves across space at Immeasurable speeds. Or even attack reaction time periods doesn't mean the attack had Immeasurable reactions.

But anyway, I'll tag some other staff members and other generally knowledgeable regular users who commented on the Immeasurable speed thread. @Matthew_Schroeder @Antoniofer @YuriAkuto @Eficiente @Everything12

 

[ShrekAnakin]

Agree with DDM, and the removal of Immeasurable speed.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

How attack that originates in the future and hits you in the past doesn't count as immeasurable speed?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I agree that it should be removed. Fighting Solaris is not a speed feat all it means is that they were fighting Solaris in different time periods because time was already ******.

It's not even a matter of "Oh but super form so not an outlier" when it's not a feat to begin with

 

[Theuser789]

Actually, the Omnipresent page is considered dated as it's not going to be assumed that having Omnipresent across time and space are default to having Immeasurable combat speed and reactions. And just because an attack has Temporal AoE doesn't mean it moves across space at Immeasurable speeds. Or even attack reaction time periods doesn't mean the attack had Immeasurable reactions.

Why are you ignoring the actual arguments just to say "nah it's wrong" for completely different reasons that people brought

Noone said they had temporal AoE, the argument was not even related to AoE! This is extreme dishonesty of the oposing side arguments, the point was that an attack that comes from the past, will MOVE and hit someone even if they are in the present, it wasn't that the attack hits in the past and so the present is affected, the same about the reaction speed/attack speed, not what was argued AT ALL

Also really calling only the people that had disagreement with the rating/agreed with you? Not a single neutral staff?

 

[Theuser789]

I agree that it should be removed. Fighting Solaris is not a speed feat all it means is that they were fighting Solaris in different time periods because time was already ******.

It was ****** in the rift, the place where Solaris wasn't at, something that was just stated earlier in the thread

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

It was ****** in the rift, the place where Solaris wasn't at, something that was just stated earlier in the thread

He ****** time time was ****** where they were still since they literally just flew up to fight Solaris who was shining in the sky.

 

[The_Axiom_of_Virgo]

Before this thread inevitably gets "too" heated, try to be as objective as possible and keep your bias for/against the Sonic franchise and it's fandom in check please.

This isn't targeted at anyone directly but we all know how "colourful" Sonic CRTs can get.

Whelp I'm going take shelter and watch this thread unfold.

 

[ShrekAnakin]

Before this thread inevitably gets "too" heated, try to be as objective as possible and keep your bias for/against the Sonic franchise and it's fandom in check please.

This isn't targeted at anyone directly but we all know how "colourful" Sonic CRTs can get.

Whelp I'm going take shelter and watch this thread unfold.

Mood

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

I agree with DDM points. And even if the feat is legit, it's an outlier as Sonic's best other feat is just 2 billions c. And even that feat is quite iffy, as it uses the background and sonic literally fell to earth after beating Gemerl.

 

[ShrekAnakin]

A

Before this thread inevitably gets "too" heated, try to be as objective as possible and keep your bias for/against the Sonic franchise and it's fandom in check please.

This isn't targeted at anyone directly but we all know how "colourful" Sonic CRTs can get.

Whelp I'm going take shelter and watch this thread unfold.

Also, how do you do the crossed out text thing on the new forum? I'm having issues with doing it.

 

[Theuser789]

He ****** time time was ****** where they were still since they literally just flew up to fight Solaris who was shining in the sky.

Repeating yourself doesn't make it true, not even talking about how this post barely makes sense? Like, you should proof read your posts, it's hard to read

Anyways, time was ****** in the rift, created by Solaris destroying everything, which was a temporary one even, but as you even said they flew out of It where Solaris was, so your argument doesn't even make sense

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

Why would it be an outlier when all MFTL+ feats are super casual?

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Sonic has a variable tier in his AP, and there's no reason his speed won't be variable too

Also Sonic have feat to support it such as: Super Modern Sonic and Super Classic Sonic battling the Time Eater in a timeless and erased universe, and in Sonic Mania Sonic fights the Phantom King in a place where time is distorted and constantly shifts on values, even to nonexistent values, implying it's broken

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

Why would it be an outlier when all MFTL+ feats are super casual?

Sonic's MFTL+ feats are also super iffy cause they're based just on the background. And no, billions c aren't supporting immeasurable.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Actually Zamasu did bring this up about the Omnipresent shenanigans. Being launched from the Future and then reaching the past is just dimensional travel range, not speed proof. And others brought them up on previous threads. Also, the Massively FTL+ examples are bad since those are all finite differences; Infinite/Immeasurable speed needs to be much more in your face for it to be legit. If environmental flows or gravity fiction normally while two characters fight, they should never be infinite speed let alone Immeasurable has been universally agreed. This includes voices being heard during the fights; like Amy reminding you to collect rings or telling you what buttons to press mid combat.

Also, Matt is right that Time being messed up. If someone is causing Past, Present, and Future to be merged into time periods, then that only makes Immeasurable speed even more dubious. Not to mention the "Weak point" was even stated in lore about needing to be struck "Across all three time periods".

Also, I tagged people who were interested and Antoniofer actually was someone an example of "Neutral staff". I don't think he's familiar with Sonic, but he has a critical eye on why Immeasurable speeds standards should be strict.

Also, "Outlier" isn't even the argument here anymore, but right now, we're just questioning whether or not the feats are actually Immeasurable.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Why would it be an outlier when all MFTL+ feats are super casual?

Yeah, not to mention Solaris was the only villain to ever threaten Super Sonic at his full power, when no other villain could even scratch him and could at most push him back

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

Sonic has a variable tier in his AP, and there's no reason his speed won't be variable too

Also Sonic have feat to support it such as: Super Modern Sonic and Super Classic Sonic battling the Time Eater in a timeless and erased universe, and in Sonic Mania Sonic fights the Phantom King in a place where time is distorted and constantly shifts on values, even to nonexistent values, implying it's broken

Timeless voids aren't a thing anymore.

 

[Theuser789]

Before the FRA train of any side come in I want to say that this thread should be focused how the new standards affect the tiering, and what should be changed, it shouldn't be about "outliers" or "there is no feat" because this already accepted in the original thread by various staff members knowelegeble on the series, and it's honestly derrailing from the main point

Focus on arguments related to the standards, please

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

DDM don’t put words in my mouth.