Issen Downgrade.....sort of

[Testarossa002]

Hello
This thread is courtesy of the basement dwellers

Spoiler: READ PROPERLY. PLEASE!!!!

We're all familiar with this statement

光速の一刀は飛ぶ斬撃となって、敵を襲う! 名刀黒澤とミフネの剣技が合致した一撃!!
https://vsbattles.com/threads/offic...-thread-new-forum.107531/page-33#post-3827101
The light-speed sword becomes a soaring slash to strike down the enemy! A strike that combines the Meito Kurosawa with Mifune's swordsmanship!!

The issue is, the statement doesn't exactly point to Issen being the light-speed sword
"The light-speed sword" is, well, the sword that's light speed. Issen is just an extension of said light speed sword.

So what's even this "light-speed sword"?
The second part of the quote above actually illuminates this.
"A strike that combines the Meito Kurosawa with Mifune's swordsmanship!!"
This SOL strike is a combination of Kurosawa (the name of Mifune's Sword) and Mifune's Swordsmanship (his skill)
Mifune's Swordsmanship
Mifune’s most renowned sword technique is Iaido, a swift and precise quick-draw style. It is his signature move, earning him widespread recognition—even among seasoned shinobi, as noted by Hanzo. This technique is particularly admired for its exceptional speed, allowing Mifune to strike before shinobi opponents have the chance to form hand signs—effectively overwhelming them in a blitz.
Conclusion
Mifune's light-speed attack should be attributed to Iaido rather than Issen.
So, his justification gets reworked from

possibly Speed of Light attack speed with Issen (The Naruto databook states that Mifune's usage of this technique has a 'light-speed sword' but the only case of him using it is when he was enhanced by Kurama's chakra)

To:

Speed of Light attack speed with Iaido (According to the Naruto Databook, Mifune attains a light-speed sword technique by combining his blade with his exceptional swordsmanship)

That's all
Comments regarding scaling would be ignored as this is not a scaling thread. Just a thread to revise Issen. If this thread is accepted, a scaling thread would be pushed out in the distant future. Wait till then

Thank you

 

[LordTracer]

Agreed.

 

[Kaydee1648]

I think this interpretation makes the most sense

 

[MinatoSparkle]

The issue is, the statement doesn't exactly point to Issen being the light-speed sword
"The light-speed sword" is, well, the sword that's light speed. Issen is just an extension of said light speed sword.

Are you saying that the statement encompasses both or that only the slash is light speed?

So what's even this "light-speed sword"?
The second part of the quote above actually illuminates this.
"A strike that combines the Meito Kurosawa with Mifune's swordsmanship!!"
This SOL strike is a combination of Kurosawa (the name of Mifune's Sword) and Mifune's Swordsmanship (his skill)
Mifune's Swordsmanship
Mifune’s most renowned sword technique is Iaido, a swift and precise quick-draw style. It is his signature move, earning him widespread recognition—even among seasoned shinobi, as noted by Hanzo. This technique is particularly admired for its exceptional speed, allowing Mifune to strike before shinobi opponents have the chance to form hand signs—effectively overwhelming them in a blitz.
Conclusion
Mifune's light-speed attack should be attributed to Iaido rather than Issen.
So, his justification gets reworked from

To:

I suppose you're arguing that Kurama's amp isn't involved in this because the statement doesn't attribute Mifune being light speed to that?

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

I kinda dont like this conclusion but I also dont really have anything to counter with so I'll agree for now I guess

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

This is Fuego.
Count me amongst the agreement pile.

 

[Godernet]

I’ve agreed with this interp the last four or five times it’s been brought up and I ain’t stopping now.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

I’ve agreed with this interp the last four or five times it’s been brought up and I ain’t stopping now.

Net rn:

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Net rn:

Me but for the reverse position

 

[Godernet]

I might just be tired but I’m trying to rack my head around how this is a downgrade fr

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

I might just be tired but I’m trying to rack my head around how this is a downgrade fr

Loses the "possibly", hence the profile's word count is reduced and thus it's a downgrade

 

[Kaydee1648]

a downgrade of words

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

Agree

 

[Nierre]

 

[Damage3245]

Sure, I tentatively agree with this. This was basically one of the points I raised in my last speed thread.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Sure, I tentatively agree with this. This was basically one of the points I raised in my last speed thread.

Surprised that you agree with a pre-Six Paths LS meta

 

[Damage3245]

Surprised that you agree with a pre-Six Paths LS meta

Well, I only agree with it extending as far as Mifune's Iaido thus far. This isn't a thread for anyone else yet.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Well, I only agree with it extending as far as Mifune's Iaido thus far. This isn't a thread for anyone else yet.

Sure, but there are characters who blatantly react to it, so if Iaido gets upgraded to LS, that basically just means FKS Sasuke/Hanzo will have close to LS reactions

 

[Testarossa002]

This thread is going way too well for my comfort

Are you saying that the statement encompasses both or that only the slash is light speed?

The quick-draw, yes
Mifune's Issen should likely carry the same speed as the quick-draw but that's unclear

I suppose you're arguing that Kurama's amp isn't involved in this because the statement doesn't attribute Mifune being light speed to that

I didn't think the Kurama amp is a factor on the light-speed capabilities of Issen anyway, so yes

 

[Damage3245]

Sure, but there are characters who blatantly react to it, so if Iaido gets upgraded to LS, that basically just means FKS Sasuke/Hanzo will have close to LS reactions

I disagree with that, but I'll save it for when that thread comes. Let's not go off-topic here.

 

[KingogKings777]

im tired boss, agreed

 

[MinatoSparkle]

I disagree with that, but I'll save it for when that thread comes. Let's not go off-topic here.

I just think it's relevant to this thread since where Base Mifune scales affects the likelihood of whether the statement is about Base or Kurama Amped Mifune

 

[Damage3245]

I just think it's relevant to this thread since where Base Mifune scales affects the likelihood of whether the statement is about Base or Kurama Amped Mifune

Okay. I see your point there.

 

[LordTracer]

I just think it's relevant to this thread since where Base Mifune scales affects the likelihood of whether the statement is about Base or Kurama Amped Mifune

The OP pretty clearly says that this isn’t a scaling thread, so this discussion should be saved for the future scaling thread that’ll come if this one is accepted.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

The OP pretty clearly says that this isn’t a scaling thread, so this discussion should be saved for the future scaling thread that’ll come if this one is accepted.

But the contention is with Mifune's Iaido being LS, not specifically characters scaling to him, so it's relevant to the thread

 

[Damage3245]

The OP pretty clearly says that this isn’t a scaling thread, so this discussion should be saved for the future scaling thread that’ll come if this one is accepted.

He's bringing up which version of Mifune should get the LS rating.

 

[LordTracer]

not specifically characters scaling to him

I mean you brought up FKS Sasuke and Hanzo so like-

 

[Nierre]

I've never agreed with the interpretation that it's Kurama's cloak and I frankly think it's a dumb argument to make so I agree with the OP, ( if the thumbs up wasn't clear, and my past CRT)

 

[MinatoSparkle]

I mean you brought up FKS Sasuke and Hanzo so like-

What I'm saying is that if other things in the series that are LS scale well above FKS Sasuke and Hanzo's caliber, it'd be more consistent/likely for the statement to refer to KM0 Mifune

 

[Godernet]

nuh uh

 

[ssgengar]

This is definitely about Base Mifune imo

But yeah, agree

 

[MinatoSparkle]

This thread is going way too well for my comfort

The quick-draw, yes
Mifune's Issen should likely carry the same speed as the quick-draw but that's unclear

I think since it brings focus to the fact of the the sword being light speed before saying it transforms into a flying slash, it makes most sense for Issen to also be LS

I didn't think the Kurama amp is a factor on the light-speed capabilities of Issen anyway, so yes

External chakra just amps abilities generally. Unless you mean that it's light speed anyways, and Kurama's chakra makes it faster, but that that's not what the statement's referencing?

 

[Testarossa002]

What I'm saying is that if other things in the series that are LS scale well above FKS Sasuke and Hanzo's caliber, it'd be more consistent/likely for the statement to refer to KM0 Mifune

The statement in question is this:

The light-speed sword becomes a soaring slash to strike down the enemy! A strike that combines the Meito Kurosawa with Mifune's swordsmanship!!

It lists only 2 contributors to Iaido being light-speed. Mifune's Sword and skill.
Nowhere was Kurama chakra listed as a contributor to the technique's apparent speed
Mifune's reputation of having a very fast quick-draw didn’t start in the war arc
The statement is very blatantly referring to his base. If kid sakura ends up scaling to base mifune, it can be dismissed as an outlier. We don't need to fashion out a new scaling origin out of little/no evidence just to make our scaling consistent

 

[Testarossa002]

I think since it brings focus to the fact of the the sword being light speed before saying it transforms into a flying slash, it makes most sense for Issen to also be LS

I mean, sure ig
Mifune and his students use the quick-draw technique when unleashing Issen unlike regular samurai goons. So it likely has the same speed

External chakra just amps abilities generally. Unless you mean that it's light speed anyways, and Kurama's chakra makes it faster, but that that's not what the statement's referencing?

The light-speed statement wasn't primarily referring to Issen nor was Kurama chakra stated to be a reason why the statement exists in the first place

 

[JohnHendrix212]

Seems aight.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

OP makes sense to me. Never agreed with that dumb idea that a sliver of Kurama's Chakra was lightspeed worthy anyways.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

The statement in question is this:

It lists only 2 contributors to Iaido being light-speed. Mifune's Sword and skill.
Nowhere was Kurama chakra listed as a contributor to the technique's apparent speed

But it's a description of him with the Kurama cloak on. It's logical for a description pointing at a form of Mifune to be talking about his capabilities in that form. A caption pointing at KCM2 Naruto's Rasengan saying Naruto's Rasengan has the power to blow up a country shouldn't be assumed to refer to Base Naruto, even if it doesn't specifically mention Naruto's form.

Mifune's reputation of having a very fast quick-draw didn’t start in the war arc
The statement is very blatantly referring to his base.

Being merely very fast isn't support for him being light speed

If kid sakura ends up scaling to base mifune, it can be dismissed as an outlier. We don't need to fashion out a new scaling origin out of little/no evidence just to make our scaling consistent

It's not really that little

I mean, sure ig
Mifune and his students use the quick-draw technique when unleashing Issen unlike regular samurai goons. So it likely has the same speed

So you're fine with Speed of Light attack speed with Iaido and Issen?

The light-speed statement wasn't primarily referring to Issen nor was Kurama chakra stated to be a reason why the statement exists in the first place

See above

 

[Testarossa002]

But it's a description of him with the Kurama cloak on. It's logical for a description pointing at a form of Mifune to be talking about his capabilities in that form. A caption pointing at KCM2 Naruto's Rasengan saying Naruto's Rasengan has the power to blow up a country shouldn't be assumed to refer to Base Naruto, even if it doesn't specifically mention Naruto's form.

You would have a point if the statement was just this

The light-speed sword becomes a soaring slash to strike down the enemy!

I would still disagree with the move being dependent on Kyubi cloak as the subject of the sentence (The light-speed sword) is regarding something already established and not an ongoing development but I would still get your point....sort of. But this isn't applicable here as the other part of the description spells out what exactly contributes to this so-called light speed sword

A strike that combines the Meito Kurosawa with Mifune's swordsmanship!!

This is as blatant as it gets
The equivalent statement to your naruto example would be something like this

The country destroying Rasengan evolves into a wind-style shuriken to strike down the enemy—a powerful technique born from Naruto’s refined chakra control after three months of intense training, combined with the guidance of Kakashi!

So you're fine with Speed of Light attack speed with Iaido

This. Issen should be naturally upgraded as it's basically a long range Iaido but there's no reason to mention it on the speed rating itself. Same way we don't include Naruto's rasenshuriken's speed on his profile

 

[Testarossa002]

This has 4 staff approvals already and would be added to Mifune's profile

 

[MinatoSparkle]

You would have a point if the statement was just this

I would still disagree with the move being dependent on Kyubi cloak as the subject of the sentence (The light-speed sword) is regarding something already established and not an ongoing development but I would still get your point....sort of. But this isn't applicable here as the other part of the description spells out what exactly contributes to this so-called light speed sword

This is as blatant as it gets
The equivalent statement to your naruto example would be something like this

I actually think your Naruto analogy is a good example of my point. It's saying what the origin of the technique is (Iaido and probably Issen are techniques Mifune honed himself that came about from a combination of his blade and swordsmanship), but that doesn't make a statement of its power about its level when attained.

Also, one of my biggest problems with the statement referring to Base Mifune is inverse scaling. I've mentioned this statement before and it's been considered contentious, but the most charitable interpretation you can make of it is that it means Jonin Minato's combat speed is Light Speed (if you think it's about FTG, is hyperbole, or about Hokage Minato, that just makes the gap worse).
木ノ葉の黄色い閃光●絶対不可避の光速の刃、戦場にて煌々と輝きを放つ術・技。呟きその名は、四代目火影のかつての通り名だ。

Minato scales to KCM Naruto and the Fourth Raikage who are much faster than the tier of people Mifune fights and who can block his Iaido

This. Issen should be naturally upgraded as it's basically a long range Iaido but there's no reason to mention it on the speed rating itself. Same way we don't include Naruto's rasenshuriken's speed on his profile

Sure ig