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Double or Nothing - Narutoverse God Tiers Speed Revision (Part 1)

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Testarossa002

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Hey

This thread would cover scaling of the God tiers appearing in Naruto, ergo, Might Guy to Kaguya
The last/Boruto Era guys would be covered in a later thread.

Scaling Notes:
Sandbox here

To recap on the accepted threads relevant to this revision:
No additional explanation is needed since the justifications are straightforward. The characters linked in the scaling notes are the origin characters for each rating, so clicking on them provides the reasoning for the scaling

Agree:
Disagree:
Neutral:
 
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I forgot to add this to the OP, but it's an important note

While this is an upgrade, this line of scaling kinda negates the current FTL+ scaling (28 c) for most of the Naruto Era god tiers.

Hamura is no longer scaling off Toneri (aura scaling smh) and Kaguya's justification puts her significantly above Naruto/Sasuke at her peak. You could argue for downscaling but not with the current justifications (which i strongly agree with)

Not giving anyone ideas, but if, for any reason, this CRT gets rejected or overturned in a new one, it might quickly turn into a downgrade.
Of course, the verse is full of competent supporters who can find a workaround but let’s hope it doesn't come to that.
So, be careful what you wish for.
 
It does not seem like there is any valid scaling chain that connects JJ Hags with any form of madara, so that line of scaling might not work

Hamura is no longer scaling off Toneri (aura scaling smh) and Kaguya's justification puts her significantly above Naruto/Sasuke at her peak. You could argue for downscaling but not with the current justifications (which i strongly agree with)
WA Kaguya is accepted to be above Toneri we can just scale her to the value instead
 
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Hey

This thread would cover scaling of the God tiers appearing in Naruto, ergo, Might Guy to Kaguya
The last/Boruto Era guys would be covered in a later thread.

Scaling Notes:
Sandbox here

To recap on the accepted threads relevant to this revision:
No additional explanation is needed since the justifications are straightforward. The characters linked in the scaling notes are the origin characters for each rating, so clicking on them provides the reasoning for the scaling

Agree:
Disagree:
Neutral:
Only issue I have rn is as to why madara is scaling to TT hag. If you can explain it better but rn I don't see it.
Edit: wouldn't kaguya still scale over any version of hags considering even though he had been a TT jinjuriki he still thought her stronger than any other?
 
After discussions with some supporters off-site, I've modified the sandbox a bit
Just minor adjustments in values
The scaling note remains the same regardless
 
After discussions with some supporters off-site, I've modified the sandbox a bit
Just minor adjustments in values
The scaling note remains the same regardless
IMG-3200.jpg
 
Just asking but didn't Hagoromo say Madara with one eye was approaching his level already? And that he was going to reach Kaguya's level or something?
 
Hey

This thread would cover scaling of the God tiers appearing in Naruto, ergo, Might Guy to Kaguya
The last/Boruto Era guys would be covered in a later thread.

Scaling Notes:
Sandbox here

To recap on the accepted threads relevant to this revision:
No additional explanation is needed since the justifications are straightforward. The characters linked in the scaling notes are the origin characters for each rating, so clicking on them provides the reasoning for the scaling

Agree:
Disagree:
Neutral:
sasuke bijuu powered susanoo should be rated as 48c, he's able to simultaneously react as counter 3 Naruto avatars which should be faster than just cloaked Naruto , also had an extended clash with them above the lower atmosphere
 
I'm not sure about the new values. Doesn't Kaguya having double their speed essentially render them helpless, especially when she resolved to kill them? Does their respective precog abilities mitigate the speed disparity?
 
I'm not sure about the new values. Doesn't Kaguya having double their speed essentially render them helpless, especially when she resolved to kill them? Does their respective precog abilities mitigate the speed disparity?
Double speed isn't anything crazy. They're 2, far more tactical and resist all of kaguya hax except ash killing bone. It's not impossible to touch her sides. Besides I believe she fought the brothers in her TT form which gives her less mobility
 
Double speed isn't anything crazy. They're 2, far more tactical and resist all of kaguya hax except ash killing bone. It's not impossible to touch her sides. Besides I believe she fought the brothers in her TT form which gives her less mobility
They also did well when they fought her individually though. Sure, Naruto resorted to trickery and clones to stall her, and Sasuke fought an arguably exhausted Kaguya when Obito was dying, but there are moments that doesn't really scream 2x slower to me.

Sasuke reacts to Kaguya's Hair Needles, Naruto clearly reacts to a blitz attempt by Kaguya, reacts again, and even has time to mentally ask permission to a bijuu while Kaguya was on the move, then attack accordingly when Kaguya was close. BZ also comments on Naruto's reflexes when he dodged Kaguya's BFR attempt.

A full value scaling should definitely be out of the question, but I think a downscale is more than reasonable.
 
Sasuke reacts to Kaguya's Hair Needles,
1. He was like dozens of metres from her while he didn't need to move at all. You don't need to have the same speed to react to something from that far away
2. He still wasn't fast enough to completely block as he still got tagged by the needles
Naruto clearly reacts to a blitz attempt by Kaguya
1. Same as Sasuke as Kaguya covered far greater distances compared to Nard
reacts again, and even has time to mentally ask permission to a bijuu while Kaguya was on the move,
Same as above
BZ also comments on Naruto's reflexes when he dodged Kaguya's BFR attempt.
This is by far, his best stuff but he has danger sense working for him. At best. an even higher reactions rating
A full value scaling should definitely be out of the question, but I think a downscale is more than reasonable.
The difference is 2x. It's not even considered a blitz using this site's vs logic. Especially has Kaguya has better stuff going for her
Even while not fully revived, she intercepted a blitz attempt from Sasuke, who was using both Body Flicker and Chidori simultaneously
Even when weakened from chakra drain, she easily evaded an Amenotejikara-assisted blitz attempt from Sasuke and avoided his Susano’o attacks without difficulty
Like, these moves are much faster in speed to Sasuke's regular speed (Susano, Chidori and Shunshin)
Naruto got blitzed Ameno-chidori

Also, it's 24c vs 48c. Where are you proposing they downscale to?
Sasuke bijuu powered susanoo should be rated as 48c, he's able to simultaneously react as counter 3 Naruto avatars which should be faster than just cloaked Naruto , also had an extended clash with them above the lower atmosphere
Naruto's stuffs are all 24 c
Nobody here is 48c. So, there's no route to that scaling for him
 
1. He was like dozens of metres from her while he didn't need to move at all. You don't need to have the same speed to react to something from that far away
Not that far a distance, to be fair.
2. He still wasn't fast enough to completely block as he still got tagged by the needles
It was because of Kaguya's Byakugan targeting the eagle which resulted in him losing a bit of focus which Kaguya likely exploited.
1. Same as Sasuke as Kaguya covered far greater distances compared to Nard
I wouldn't say it's that far that an argument can't be made.
This is by far, his best stuff but he has danger sense working for him. At best. an even higher reactions rating
BZ did say reflexes, though I guess BZ didn't really know he had danger sensing, so fair enough.

The difference is 2x. It's not even considered a blitz using this site's vs logic.
Fair point.
Like, these moves are much faster in speed to Sasuke's regular speed (Susano, Chidori and Shunshin)
Sasuke's Ameno-blitz attempt on Kaguya had Sasuke affected by the gravity as well, lessening his arm-swing speed.
Also, it's 24c vs 48c. Where are you proposing they downscale to?
You said a downscale argument can be made, so I imagined you have some idea where to downscale them.
 
so, shouldn't dual rinnegan Madara scale to Hagoromo at his peak instead of the 24c?
we dont have anything concrete atm to say 2E Juubidara is equal to hags at his peak, it could be that or it could also not be that, nothing was stated in context to Hags as a juubi jinchuriki
 
Considering Naruto traded several blows with her that doesn't seem right
Naruto "trading blows with her" ended up like this

I think the facial expressions and the result being 2 direct blows that Naruto couldn't do anything about that Kaguya was extremely casual while Naruto was going extreme diff just to match that.
 
Naruto "trading blows with her" ended up like this

I think the facial expressions and the result being 2 direct blows that Naruto couldn't do anything about that Kaguya was extremely casual while Naruto was going extreme diff just to match that.

Never noticed it before, but did Naruto just take two direct hits from EGVF? KSPSM Naruto durability >>> Susano'o?
 
Naruto "trading blows with her" ended up like this

I think the facial expressions and the result being 2 direct blows that Naruto couldn't do anything about that Kaguya was extremely casual while Naruto was going extreme diff just to match that.

Well yeah he was overpowered in strength obviously. But he was able to match her several times in speed blow for blow for a while until the power overwhelmed him
 
The difference in speed isn’t so large it’d warrant a blitz.
The chain is; 1EJ~24c<<2EJ<Sasuke~Naruto
They massively upscale from the 24c that it’s closer but not equal to Kaguya 48c, but the gap isn’t quantifiable hence why they remain at 24c.
 
Well yeah he was overpowered in strength obviously.
No not really. He was actually matching Kaguya (or at least whatever amount of power Kaguya was using) in strength, he just straight up couldn't respond to those 2 arms going towards him.
But he was able to match her several times in speed blow for blow for a while until the power overwhelmed him
He only matched her this once and like I said, it's pretty clear Kaguya is very casual and yet it's taking Narutos all to respond. If anything this further supports the gap between them
 
No not really. He was actually matching Kaguya (or at least whatever amount of power Kaguya was using) in strength, he just straight up couldn't respond to those 2 arms going towards him.

He only matched her this once and like I said, it's pretty clear Kaguya is very casual and yet it's taking Narutos all to respond. If anything this further supports the gap between them
Uhh I don't think she was casual. She was annoyed by the fact that Naruto had six path chakra and felt it belonged to her then immediately charged towards him. That's not casual.

You admit he was matching her, then all of a sudden he wasn't. It's simple , they were exchanging blows and then kaguya increased her power and overpowered him that's all. It doesn't change the fact that they exchanged several blows .


It's not just here. When she merged with her ice dimension and was attacking Naruto, he was dodging all her attacks without any problems, mind you he didn't know where she will attack from. It was not until he came up with a strategy to pretend to be caught so she can come out that she could touch him.
 
Uhh I don't think she was casual. She was annoyed by the fact that Naruto had six path chakra and felt it belonged to her then immediately charged towards him. That's not casual.
She was literally smiling and showing no signs of effort at all
You admit he was matching her, then all of a sudden he wasn't. It's simple , they were exchanging blows and then kaguya increased her power and overpowered him that's all. It doesn't change the fact that they exchanged several blows .
No, she increased her speed because she we see the arms blitzed Naruto.

You can see the exclamation mark showing Naruto just then reacted and the fact that there's nothing even attempting to block the arms, meaning he didn't get overpowered by outsped (or possibly overwhelmed)
It's not just here. When she merged with her ice dimension and was attacking Naruto, he was dodging all her attacks without any problems,
He wasn't tho…? Kaguya was always shown as significantly faster than Naruto and (ESPECIALLY) Sasuke.

Nothing Naruto did can't be explained by precog and distance, a 2x difference in speed is not that much.
 
She was literally smiling and showing no signs of effort at all
There's literally no reason to hold back in speed. She's trying not to get captured by them and at the same time trying to take Naruto chakra. She would have to be using her full speed to avoid being sealed and to catch Naruto too. Was she holding back strength at first? Yeah possibly and then she increased her strength when Naruto was still matching her. Idk where you're getting this blitz from.
No, she increased her speed because she we see the arms blitzed Naruto.

You can see the exclamation mark showing Naruto just then reacted and the fact that there's nothing even attempting to block the arms, meaning he didn't get overpowered by outsped (or possibly overwhelmed)

Exclamation marks don't just indicate blitz. It also indicates discomfort by being thrown away. Naruto that was matching her blow for blow suddenly got blown away with so much force he kept doing summersaults endlessly in the air and couldn't stop himself that Sasuke had to and you attribute it to speed and not power?


You can see here clearly that they clashed multiple blows. It's not something like one attack that you can maybe argue wasn't at her fastest but she's literally the aggressor, trying to steal his chakra, stop him from sealing her and yet you're arguing she decides to hold back speed to someone as dangerous as him and just decide to clash slowly severally. Also clearly the smirk she made was because while clashing with Naruto she still saw Sasuke with his susanoo above and figures out their plan. So she was probably thinking "these guys don't know who I am" then proceeds to increase her power and blow Naruto away..

He wasn't tho…? Kaguya was always shown as significantly faster than Naruto and (ESPECIALLY) Sasuke.

Nothing Naruto did can't be explained by precog and distance, a 2x difference in speed is not that much.



This panel begs to differ. Unlike Sasuke zetsu just straight up admits Naruto is too fast for them to catch. The whole reason kaguya merged with her ice dimension was because she couldn't catch Naruto even with using her teleportation. You keep mentioning precog here but don't forget kaguya was most likely erasing her chakra signature but I digress. Either way Naruto speed is notable enough to clash multiple times with her, too fast to be caught to the extent she had to merge with her dimension so as to find a way to pin him down and then come me out and try to catch him.
 
There's literally no reason to hold back in speed.
There's also no reason to go all out if she can match and overwhelm him without it.
She's trying not to get captured by them and at the same time trying to take Naruto chakra.
She was basically toying with them at that point and only started seeing them as a threat when Naruto outsmarted her for like the 3rd time.
Was she holding back strength at first? Yeah possibly and then she increased her strength when Naruto was still matching her. Idk where you're getting this blitz from.
She literally hits Naruto with 2 entire fists that he doesn't even remotely react to. What part of that implied a POWER increase over a SPEED increase? If we saw her blast Narutos fists out of the way or destroy them I'd understand a power increase but she just outright tagged him without him doing anything about it.

Either she outnumbered his fists or outsped his fists, there's no interpretation where this was the result of her increasing power.
Exclamation marks don't just indicate blitz. It also indicates discomfort by being thrown away. Naruto that was matching her blow for blow suddenly got blown away with so much force he kept doing summersaults endlessly in the air and couldn't stop himself that Sasuke had to and you attribute it to speed and not power?
Of course I attribute suddenly getting blitzed twice at once to speed. Wtf kind of logic are you using? Naruto saw her increase the power of her attacks so he decided not to block or dodge them all the sudden?

Also she does barely any damage despite 2 direct blows. If all she did to go from equal to Naruto to completely overpowering him and landing 2 blows is increase her strength then she should have done WAY more damage.

Idk if my imgur is lagged or what but the scan doesn't want to load for me.
You can see here clearly that they clashed multiple blows.
Yes while Naruto was like
RAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHH 😡😡😡😡😡😡😡😡

While Kaguya was like
😏

How do you look at that and interpret it as them putting in the same amount of effort…?
It's not something like one attack that you can maybe argue wasn't at her fastest but she's literally the aggressor, trying to steal his chakra, stop him from sealing her and yet you're arguing she decides to hold back speed to someone as dangerous as him and just decide to clash slowly severally.
Yeah Kaguya was like
"wow I'm try so hard rn 😏"
Also clearly the smirk she made was because while clashing with Naruto she still saw Sasuke with his susanoo above and figures out their plan. So she was probably thinking "these guys don't know who I am" then proceeds to increase her power and blow Naruto away..
She clearly smirked because of the susanoo? She looked like a disappointed parent when Sasukes susanoo actually appeared



This panel begs to differ. Unlike Sasuke zetsu just straight up admits Naruto is too fast for them to catch.

Naruto
1. Already saw exactly what Kaguya was going to do because she did it to Sasuke.
2. Has high level danger sense.

Again a 2x difference is NOT big and Naruto literally has precog to fight it as well.
The whole reason kaguya merged with her ice dimension was because she couldn't catch Naruto even with using her teleportation. You keep mentioning precog here but don't forget kaguya was most likely erasing her chakra signature but I digress.
Even if she was, does that negate danger sense tho?

I mean, we never saw or heard Naruto mention his danger senses are not working on none of the like 3+ Otsutsukis he fought so either they don't use it in combat or it doesn't negate danger sense.
Either way Naruto speed is notable enough to clash multiple times with her, too fast to be caught to the extent she had to merge with her dimension so as to find a way to pin him down and then come me out and try to catch him.
Under that interpretation Naruto is more than a blitz tier above both his clones and Sasuke. In that case it'd be something like
Naruto ~ Kaguya > fatigued Kaguya > Sasukes perfect susanoo > chidori amped Sasuke > Sasuke ~ 2r Madaras physical speed

Which I don't think is really supported by the narrative given that Naruto and Sasuke are mostly treated as equals and Kaguya is treated as basically unbeatable. But I don't really mind it since it works for my Naruto>Sasuke agenda 😛😛.

I'm just saying, under this interpretation it wouldn't contradict Kaguya being 2x as fast as Madara but prove Naruto is also 2x as fast as Madara.
 
There's also no reason to go all out if she can match and overwhelm him without it.
There actually is. She is trying to not get sealed again by the exact same jutsu giving by the same guy that sealed her, on top of that she's trying to collect their chakra first. She's definitely going to attack swiftly and finish things immediately
She was basically toying with them at that point and only started seeing them as a threat when Naruto outsmarted her for like the 3rd time.
Actually no she immediately took them seriously when she found out they had the seals. At first she attacked straight away and captured both, felt the seals and immediately threw them away, one would assume a character would immediately start attacking with caution and not restricting themselves after doing such.

She literally hits Naruto with 2 entire fists that he doesn't even remotely react to. What part of that implied a POWER increase over a SPEED increase? If we saw her blast Narutos fists out of the way or destroy them I'd understand a power increase but she just outright tagged him without him doing anything about it.

Either she outnumbered his fists or outsped his fists, there's no interpretation where this was the result of her increasing power.

Of course I attribute suddenly getting blitzed twice at once to speed. Wtf kind of logic are you using? Naruto saw her increase the power of her attacks so he decided not to block or dodge them all the sudden?
Actually we don't see her actually hit Naruto. We see the fists and then we see Naruto blown away, for all we know she overpowered his fists first. It is also very suss that not once could she replicate this feat when attacking anymore. The entire fight in the ice dimension she could not once blitz Naruto and even had to resort to merging with the dimension when she couldn't catch him again.
Also she does barely any damage despite 2 direct blows. If all she did to go from equal to Naruto to completely overpowering him and landing 2 blows is increase her strength then she should have done WAY more damage.
Not necessarily. She can overpower the fists and still not do too much damage, kinda how Sasuke can be blown away with his susanoo and not take too much damage
Idk if my imgur is lagged or what but the scan doesn't want to load for me.

Yes while Naruto was like
RAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHH 😡😡😡😡😡😡😡😡

While Kaguya was like
😏

How do you look at that and interpret it as them putting in the same amount of effort…?
Yes kaguya was being more casual in respect to power, Naruto was clearly putting more effort. I never argued against that. I'm saying actively slowing yourself down against one of the 2 people that can lock you away for ever when you already have a fear of being locked up sounds like a very bad idea.
Yeah Kaguya was like
"wow I'm try so hard rn 😏"

She clearly smirked because of the susanoo? She looked like a disappointed parent when Sasukes susanoo actually appeared

You can have whatever interpretation of the smirk you want, that's largely not relevant to the point I'm making
Naruto
1. Already saw exactly what Kaguya was going to do because she did it to Sasuke.
2. Has high level danger sense.
1. Technically she meant to capture Naruto and not send him through a portal, she already separated them. Also knowing that someone wants to open a portal doesn't tell you where the person is going to come out from. It took boruto with a jougan to do that.

2. You can't just keep attributing everything to danger sense, you still have to be able to react in time coz like you don't know where the danger is coming from in this case. Also zetsu was highlighting his speed and not danger sense
Again a 2x difference is NOT big and Naruto literally has precog to fight it as well.

Even if she was, does that negate danger sense tho?
Nauto type of precog does not let you dodge attacks that you don't know from where they are coming from or even whence they'll be attacking. Actually Naruto didn't even know she merged with nature then even .
I mean, we never saw or heard Naruto mention his danger senses are not working on none of the like 3+ Otsutsukis he fought so either they don't use it in combat or it doesn't negate danger sense
He couldn't sense momoshiki or kinshiki until they were right above his head in the chunin exams. Yet he he even has cosmic awareness
.

Under that interpretation Naruto is more than a blitz tier above both his clones and Sasuke. In that case it'd be something like
Naruto ~ Kaguya > fatigued Kaguya > Sasukes perfect susanoo > chidori amped Sasuke > Sasuke ~ 2r Madaras physical speed

Which I don't think is really supported by the narrative given that Naruto and Sasuke are mostly treated as equals and Kaguya is treated as basically unbeatable. But I don't really mind it since it works for my Naruto>Sasuke agenda 😛😛.

I'm just saying, under this interpretation it wouldn't contradict Kaguya being 2x as fast as Madara but prove Naruto is also 2x as fast as Madara.
Your scaling chains is wrong. There's nothing tying kaguya to the susanoo speed. She never blitzed it. She absorbed it coming from a distance away. She can be equal in speed or even slower and would be able to do that. Sasuke kept up with fatigued kaguya in his susanoo fine for a while while Naruto yapped with obito.

Also Naruto can be a blitz tier above Sasuke in the battle, it doesn't matter. Clearly Naruto was greater in capabilities than Sasuke in that fight and it was well shown
 
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