Narutoverse Speed Revision [Mid-Tiers]

[Testarossa002]

I agree, good work. My only gripe which I forgot to bring up on Discord, so my bad is that every use of “even far higher” should probably just be “far higher”.

How will it fit for those with more than 3 amps though?
For sasuke's last key, there's:

higher > even higher > far higher > even far higher > far higher > even far higher

6 amps on a single rating

 

[JohnHendrix212]

Wiki should have included a "much higher" rating.

Higher > much higher > far higher > even higher > even far higher

Or something of that line. Unless I'm misremembering, and the wiki already has that.

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

Just higher several times, unless they have a MASSIVE jump it’s not needed to say FAR HIGHER!, EVEN HIGHER!


Sasuke needs tabbers

 

[MinatoSparkle]

@Testarossa002 Can you put the spoiler tag outside of my message? As it is, I can't respond

 

[LordTracer]

How will it fit for those with more than 3 amps though?
For sasuke's last key, there's:

I would just alternate between “even higher” and “far higher”.

 

[JohnHendrix212]

Bump.

Do we still need one more mod approval?

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Spoiler: a bible, but a slightly shorter one than usual

He got blitzed here, here and here
Got tagged here (despite having a diversion in place) and here

The first two instances aren't blitzes. Danzo was surprised by an attack from his periphery in the first instance and was attacked from out of his line of sight in the second. Him getting tagged cause he thought Sasuke was immobile doesn't mean much either; the fact that he got away before the Susanoo killed him is a feat if anything, given the supposed 35+ times speed difference.

Using one instance where he somewhat reacted to the Susano'o doesn't tell the whole story.

Not sure what you mean by somewhat? He fully evades the attack and Sasuke is forced to use Amaterasu to kill him. The fact that Danzo reacts when Sasuke attacks head on, while he gets tagged in disadvantageous positions/situations should be a clear sign that the Susanoo's not a full blitz tier above the user, just fast enough to catch comparable opponents slipping.

He got there with Body Flicker

Doesn't change anything I said. The speed his arm grabbed the sword is still a combat speed feat.

That would be removed. The main feat there is his reaction to Naruto.

Why should it be removed? It's valid, and happens twice.

Weird. I recall deliberating on the feat and choosing not to use it, but I can't remember why. That's okay

KCM2 Naruto didn't seem to have a problem approaching Obito while avoiding his Kamui attacks. Just more support for that tier of characters being FTL.

• In addition, the Jins also dodge his raikiri, which is a blitz tier above his regular CS. So, he can't possibly be comparable to them in base

Most of the time they get hit and Kakashi's dodged just once, so Raikiri Kakashi is faster than them, just not quite a blitz tier above. Something like Raikiri Kakashi~>V2 Jin~>Base Kakashi

• He's also shown to be comparable to base guy

When?

On the other hand, as you've shown, he's also comparable to Gated Guy. But when compared to his other feats in those chapters, that is starting to look like a standalone feat. Especially when you consider that he could have performed that feat with Shunshin. Like I said in your thread, I can't find a way to incorporate ALL the feats shown by Kakashi (and Guy) in those 20ish chapters. Some stuff would have to be ignored to make sense of the scaling. I can change the wording to "faster than before" though."

Even if he performed it with Shunshin, it's still a noteworthy feat. Faster than before would be better than nothing I sppose.

Brain freeze moment. I already argued in your thread that it doesn't make a lot of sense that Kakashi's MS is faster than his Kamui speed, given its previous feats

My response is the same as it was back then. It's quite consistent that WA Kakashi/Obito are faster than their Kamui speeds, the only evidence against it being previous versions of Kakashi, which doesn't outweigh direct showings of a later version.

That doesn't affect his rating. He's still going to be FTL via other means in his justification.

His reaction speed would be, but not necessarily his combat speed. If he was relative to Base Hashirama, he'd be "At least Relativistic, likely far higher." I do think Base Hashirama is FTL, but it's a bit complicated to explain (and is controversial).

I was tweaking with that justification. It was supposed to go to his Shunshin speed. His regular speed doesn't need to be faster than them when his Shunshin exists. Even more so when he's well-renowned for its usage

It'd be one thing if only Ay's Shunshin was FTL, then something like Minato's Shunshin>V2 Ay's Shunshin>>Minato's CS>V2 Ay's CS could make sense, but V2 Ay also overwhelmed MS Sasuke with combat speed. Minato's not really the fastest in a holistic sense if he'd get overwhelmed in a fight and is only number 1 in travel speed with a short burst jutsu.

A4 from 16 years ago isn't FTL
Especially when he's regarded as a "gym bro" who trains his muscles every time the opportunity presents itself [DB4]

Favourite: As Raikage he leads a very busy existence, but once he finds the time, he goes to workout/train his muscles. His strong body is the result.

A took over the position/office from his father, the Third Raikage. Since he has witnessed and observed this indomitable fighter decades-long from nearby, to him a village leader simply has to be strong. For this reason A steels his body with great care and devotes himself to the military armament of his country.

I understand the argument, but I disagree. The emphasis is on strength training, which can lead to a speed boost, but not really as directly. And more importantly, Ay implicitly compared his speed back then to his speed now (an analogy I've made before in regards to this is that Usain Bolt wouldn't say someone outsped him at his fastest if it was a race when he was far slower as a kid, as it's no longer his fastest). This is supported by Naruto being compared to Minato both directly and symbolically because of them both outspeeding V2 Ay, which doesn't make much sense if 3rd War Ay and WA Ay are far apart.

extra brain freeze

What's wrong with it?

Ya, it was deliberate. There's nothing wrong with the justification per se. All that did happen. The issue is, I don't think it qualifies for AS/RS. She mixed the bombs with regular bombs from the get-go, so they weren't added after the fact. And activating the bomb doesn't require any movement at all. I'm unsure what to rate it as. Which is why the Hidan stuff serves as a buffer since it's factually true

It did require a mental activation, and the speed the bombs explode is I think what's meant by attack speed. I'm fine with leaving it if you still don't think it should be rated though.

Same issue as Minato. A4 consistently trains. So, they don't really need to be as fast as the version of A4 with the FTL rating

1. As I talked about, I don't think Ay really got faster
2. Even if he did, the statement about the Sannin and Gokage being comparable was in the 2nd Fanbook which covers up to the FKS.
3. Tsunade has a direct accepted implication of scaling to WA Ay

It's more of a timing feat and she has other feats regardless

Which is why I don't really think it's best to keep in her justification, as it gives the impression of her being faster than she is

goes under my thoughts about Sasori

Is it just me or did Sakura disappear from the sandbox?

That he had a casual disposition doesn't mean he's significantly holding back. He had a casual disposition against Tengai Shinsei too.

Does cast considerable doubt on it. This is the same guy that previously shot a Fire Style slow enough for nameless fodder to counter. Also wouldn't the Kage be FTL via scaling to Madara's Susanoo, not Relativistic?

 

[HelloThere1089]

1A! 1A! 1A! 1A! 1 AAAAAAAAAA!

 

[Kaydee1648]

1A! 1A! 1A! 1A! 1 AAAAAAAAAA!

It’s a speed revision..

 

[Metalija]

It’s a speed revision..

1A speed

 

[HelloThere1089]

It’s a speed revision..

Outerversal Speed....

 

[DarkMatter29]

Sounds good to me, I agree.

 

[sageof8paths]

It’s a speed revision..

he’s quoting lex luthor i believe

 

[HelloThere1089]

At least someone gets it

 

[JohnHendrix212]

Someone tag a mod so Test can get to the next CRT.

 

[Nierre]

@UchihaSlayer96 @KingTempest () @DarkDragonMedeus @FinePoint

 

[Testarossa002]

The first two instances aren't blitzes. Danzo was surprised by an attack from his periphery

He noticed it and was still unable to do anything, which is what someone 30x slower than an attack would do

was attacked from out of his line of sight in the second

Same as above. Here's the 3rd scan. Discord isn't working for some reason

Not sure what you mean by somewhat? He fully evades the attack and Sasuke is forced to use Amaterasu to kill him. The fact that Danzo reacts when Sasuke attacks head on, while he gets tagged in disadvantageous positions/situations should be a clear sign that the Susanoo's not a full blitz tier above the user, just fast enough to catch comparable opponents slipping.

Like i said, it's one instance against multiple. It's not like he was restrained or anything. Even if I agree with the first scan due to him not knowing Susanoo's capabilities (unthinkable), he got tagged multiple times after. It wasn't even a case of minor bruises. Each hit killed him. At the very least, he'd have used body flicker to evade it at some point. Which he didn't do

Doesn't change anything I said. The speed his arm grabbed the sword is still a combat speed feat.

Body flicker (for naruto at this point) is combat speed. Just faster than before. His very first scene with KCM 2 is him using it to slap away bijuu bombs

Why should it be removed? It's valid, and happens twice.

Because he didn't move? He negated it with his own Kamui

KCM2 Naruto didn't seem to have a problem approaching Obito while avoiding his Kamui attacks. Just more support for that tier of characters being FTL.

He was like 100m away. He can do that while not needing to be as fast as the stuff. Especially when he gets ('or would have gotten tagged) the moment he got close enough

Most of the time they get hit and Kakashi's dodged just once, so Raikiri Kakashi is faster than them, just not quite a blitz tier above. Something like Raikiri Kakashi~>V2 Jin~>Base Kakashi

That would be fine except for the minor bit where there's a >>5x gap between base and Raikiri, which is a blitz tier inverse. You can't be relative to something that's supposed to blitz you.

When?

******* Discord. Here

Even if he performed it with Shunshin, it's still a noteworthy feat. Faster than before would be better than nothing I sppose.

Okay

My response is the same as it was back then. It's quite consistent that WA Kakashi/Obito are faster than their Kamui speeds, the only evidence against it being previous versions of Kakashi, which doesn't outweigh direct showings of a later version.

we'd just agree to disagree

His reaction speed would be, but not necessarily his combat speed. If he was relative to Base Hashirama, he'd be "At least Relativistic, likely far higher." I do think Base Hashirama is FTL, but it's a bit complicated to explain (and is controversial).

He stretched his hand, took the orb and got out of there before Sasuke could fully manifest the susano'o. Naruto didn't even know what had happened (see the !!). That's combat speed

It'd be one thing if only Ay's Shunshin was FTL, then something like Minato's Shunshin>V2 Ay's Shunshin>>Minato's CS>V2 Ay's CS could make sense, but V2 Ay also overwhelmed MS Sasuke with combat speed.

It could just be that Sasuke (as with the other observers) didn't think A4 was going to go through with the attack. And not necessarily a speed blitz

Minato's not really the fastest in a holistic sense if he'd get overwhelmed in a fight and is only number 1 in travel speed with a short burst jutsu.

Nah. He's well-renowned for his usage of BF. Same as A4. If the statement was for someone like Sakura or Hashirama who aren't really famed for their usage, I can apply that for regular combat speed. Not Minato. Minato is skilled enough to grab something mid-body flicker (see vs Obito and Kurama). He could easily have slashed open an opponent while doing that. Nard's first use of BF in KCM 1 and 2 was noted to be similar to that of Minato. In one of those instances, we're told he doesn't have the precision Minato had mid BF.

I understand the argument, but I disagree. The emphasis is on strength training, which can lead to a speed boost, but not really as directly. And more importantly,

Bruh, he's a taijutsu specialist. The aspect of a ninja that directly affects the speed/strength. They even mention that his muscles. Why would someone who's famed for being super fast and strong go years not investing heavily in both of those aspects

Ay implicitly compared his speed back then to his speed now (an analogy I've made before in regards to this is that Usain Bolt wouldn't say someone outsped him at his fastest if it was a race when he was far slower as a kid, as it's no longer his fastest). This is supported by Naruto being compared to Minato both directly and symbolically because of them both outspeeding V2 Ay, which doesn't make much sense if 3rd War Ay and WA Ay are far apart.

This all relies on the idea that A4 was static in speed for 20-odd years. Given what we know about ninjas and training time, I find that very unlikely. Especially for a ninja who we're told was developing his muscles during that time

What's wrong with it?

As mentioned earlier, he can be all that with BF. He doesn't have Genin Sakura level mastery over it

As I talked about, I don't think Ay really got faster

Agree to disagree

Even if he did, the statement about the Sannin and Gokage being comparable was in the 2nd Fanbook which covers up to the FKS

I just looked at the statements and it reads to me like hearsay rather than an objective statement

3. Tsunade has a direct accepted implication of scaling to WA Ay

Ya, because in Naruto, being capable of fighting someone doesn't mean you're equal/relative to ALL their stats. It requires more nuance. Tsunade is stronger (a one-shot gap if anything) and has regeneration

Is it just me or did Sakura disappear from the sandbox?

Yeah. I'll treat it in the next thread

Does cast considerable doubt on it. This is the same guy that previously shot a Fire Style slow enough for nameless fodder to counter. Also wouldn't the Kage be FTL via scaling to Madara's Susanoo, not Relativistic?

He has relativistic showings against Gaara just prior to this. It's like Hashirama holding back against Ebisu, but still managed to nuke a building. It's not beyond reason to scale Ebisu to building level


This is my final response btw

 

[FinePoint]

@UchihaSlayer96 @KingTempest () @DarkDragonMedeus @FinePoint

I took a week off so now I have a lot to catch up on again this week.

You may put this on my wall if you'd like though.

 

[KingTempest]

@KingTempest ()

"Narutoverse"
Have a good thread brudda

 

[Apex_Predator_GX]

Following

 

[MinatoSparkle]

This is my final response btw

What if I make it brief

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

What if I make it brief

 

[KingTempest]

I don't intend to get involved with this thread

You do know that "Iaido" is a fan made term, right?

Iaido - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

No it is not.

Iaido is a specific swordsmanship technique for quickdraw. It's not the casual speed of swordsman, it's a specialized technique for unsheathing quickly for certain slashes and such.

 

[Testarossa002]

I don't intend to get involved with this thread

Iaido - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

No it is not.

Iaido is a specific swordsmanship technique for quickdraw. It's not the casual speed of swordsman, it's a specialized technique for unsheathing quickly for certain slashes and such.

Fanmade term in the world of Naruto
I was still wrong about that as Ghost's translation of the part in question actually mentions Iaido

What if I make it brief

It's not really all about the length. We still won't see eye to eye on most things said

 

[KingTempest]

Fanmade term in the world of Naruto
I was still wrong about that as Ghost's translation of the part in question actually mentions Iaido

How is it a fanmade term... in the series?

 

[Testarossa002]

I was still wrong

 

[KingTempest]

Hehe

 

[MinatoSparkle]

It's not really all about the length. We still won't see eye to eye on most things said

Ite, I just have two more things to say then

1. The topic of KCM2 tier characters' CS being FTL would be good to get staff opinion on since it's pretty important and neither side is definitively wrong
2. Do you agree that Minato was mentally nerfed when Tobirama outsped him? If so, it'd be best to remove the implication that Tobirama scales to KCM2 Minato, and BSM Naruto by extension

 

[Testarossa002]

2. Do you agree that Minato was mentally nerfed when Tobirama outsped him? If so, it'd be best to remove the implication that Tobirama scales to KCM2 Minato, and BSM Naruto by extension

I thought I already fixed that

At least FTL (His shadow clone was able to reach a Truthseeker Orb at point-blank range from Tailed Beast Mode Minato, and it could teleport away faster than Tailed Beast Mode Naruto and Eternal Mangekyō Sharingan Sasuke could react properly to)

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Hm, I mean it doesn't say he's faster but it does still read like that with the mention of the TSO being close to KCM Minato when Tobirama reaches it from a distance

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

Apologies for the last minute addition but I've given things a thought and I've decided I want to push to get this for combat speed directly

Spoiler: Args

What I define reaction speed is like this

me tilting my head to evade a slap is reaction
me thrusting my hand forward to slap away the hand is offensive in nature and uhhh very obviously combat lol

you wouldn’t be able to do the latter at the same speed of the former sure but Sasuke doesn’t just evade or parry passively—he just thrusts his sword forward. This is the same physical motion he would use if he were trying to strike. This is a full-body offensive move, not a reflex. Aka flat out combat speed

It also qualifies as both offense & defence as he & mifune equally clashed we see both swords recoil from the clash, thanks to nigh equal forces on both sides. Combat speed covers offense & defense. While Reaction speed, is almost exclusively tied to defense & evasion. So this being offensive / offensive-leaning favors being categorized to combat speed more

Personally when I think about when a character has the reaction speed but doesn’t have the combat is sth similar to Sasuke vs Ay where he can react with enough speed to survive but he won’t be able keep pressing ay or make him feel the pressure, I don’t believe that case is here since Sasuke’s not evading or side stepping or making any type of action that would fall under a category of can’t-replicate-this for offence, he’s going in all out with guns blazing fully aiming to be on the offence in his strikes which adds further support to this case

TLDR, thrusting out a sword to block a sword can translate to thrusting it out to cut, so the sasuke-mifune calc is to be indexed as combat speed

 

[JohnHendrix212]

Apologies for the last minute addition but I've given things a thought and I've decided I want to push to get this for combat speed directly

Spoiler: Args

What I define reaction speed is like this

me tilting my head to evade a slap is reaction
me thrusting my hand forward to slap away the hand is offensive in nature and uhhh very obviously combat lol

you wouldn’t be able to do the latter at the same speed of the former sure but Sasuke doesn’t just evade or parry passively—he just thrusts his sword forward. This is the same physical motion he would use if he were trying to strike. This is a full-body offensive move, not a reflex. Aka flat out combat speed

It also qualifies as both offense & defence as he & mifune equally clashed we see both swords recoil from the clash, thanks to nigh equal forces on both sides. Combat speed covers offense & defense. While Reaction speed, is almost exclusively tied to defense & evasion. So this being offensive / offensive-leaning favors being categorized to combat speed more

Personally when I think about when a character has the reaction speed but doesn’t have the combat is sth similar to Sasuke vs Ay where he can react with enough speed to survive but he won’t be able keep pressing ay or make him feel the pressure, I don’t believe that case is here since Sasuke’s not evading or side stepping or making any type of action that would fall under a category of can’t-replicate-this for offence, he’s going in all out with guns blazing fully aiming to be on the offence in his strikes which adds further support to this case

TLDR, thrusting out a sword to block a sword can translate to thrusting it out to cut, so the sasuke-mifune calc is to be indexed as combat speed

Basically this. What Sasuke did was full-on Combat Speed. Cant believe they had to complicate things.

 

[Godernet]

The site doesn't really accept that kinda stuff as combat speed (yet)

Usually, to be combat speed, the movements would need to be three or more movements against someone's or something's speed; otherwise, it's a reaction feat to my knowledge.

Reaction Speed is the speed at which a character can react to an event or action. This usually only grants a short movement upon reaction, whereas several movements at the same speed switch it to Combat Speed.

And then there's the matter of the Sharingan, which gives enhanced perception and its trademark analytical prediction, even a 13-year-old 3T Sasuke who just awakened his third tomoe would use it against things that were blitzing his combat and reaction speeds in 2T, to see attacks several moves ahead of when they were launched and preemptively time attacks accordingly.

Reactions seem more fitting here tbh.

 

[Damage3245]

Pretty much what Godernet said.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Iaido is one movement but isn't considered reaction speed

 

[Damage3245]

Iaido is one movement but isn't considered reaction speed

It's classified as attack speed, not general combat speed.

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

The site doesn't really accept that kinda stuff as combat speed (yet)

You’re deadass telling me I can’t punch at light speed after I’ve shown to punch at light speed to block an attack simply because I did it once.

The wiki rule means nothing at all, even the staff thread gave entirely different conditions for combat speed qualifiers and ignored the numbers nonsense, that’s not a valid counter

 

[HelloThere1089]

The wiki rule means nothing at all

It means you can't independently change things in CRTs if you haven't removed the rule itself from the wiki first. The same applies to discussion rules. They don't really "mean" anything other than you first need a separate thread to remove them.

Reactions and Perceptions

In fiction, movement over long distances and movement over short distances - which can be dubbed "combat distances" - tend to be remarkably different for different characters, resulting in serious discrepancies when considering their overall speed. On this wiki, we therefore differentiate...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Once you get this page revised, then you can make a separate thread for your suggestion. afaik.

 

[Godernet]

It means you can't independently change things in CRTs if you haven't removed the rule itself from the wiki first. The same applies to discussion rules. They don't really "mean" anything other than you first need a separate thread to remove them.

Reactions and Perceptions

In fiction, movement over long distances and movement over short distances - which can be dubbed "combat distances" - tend to be remarkably different for different characters, resulting in serious discrepancies when considering their overall speed. On this wiki, we therefore differentiate...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Once you get this page revised, then you can make a separate thread for your suggestion. afaik.

pm this yeah,

It's not about opinions or counterarguments about this specific instance as much as it's just a site rule; whether we agree or disagree with it is irrelevant until its amended.

There is a thread going on to amend combat and reaction speeds by KT, but idk what's going on with that.

But even outside of that, there's still the fact that the Sharingan's precog and enhanced perceptions make it far harder to justify it being combat speed.

You can be 10% LS and still react and block a LS attack if you know its exact trajectory steps in advance, can perceive muscle twitches and movements to a microscopic level, and perceive things slower than they're actually moving.

 

[Testarossa002]

I was going to make a section explaining Reaction Speed scaling in a Narutoverse context but it wasn’t really needed until now
Basically, if someone like Guy was the one with the Sasuke feat, it'll be much easier to argue for it being a general speed feat as he doesn't really have anything that canonically boosts his reactions to a degree significantly above his regular combat speed.
Users of the Sharingan and Sage Mode on the other hand, have lore explanations working against them even without the wiki rule in place.
To be clear, that's not to say that the aforementioned boosts have no/little effect on the user's general speed. The lore just places reactions on a higher level that that.

That being said, the rule is still there. I tried to argue against it in KT's thread by suggesting a new wording for the terms but that was shut down
Maybe it'll get revised in the future
Who knows