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Narutoverse Speed Revision [Mid-Tiers]

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It means you can't independently change things in CRTs if you haven't removed the rule itself from the wiki first. The same applies to discussion rules. They don't really "mean" anything other than you first need a separate thread to remove them.
Once you get this page revised, then you can make a separate thread for your suggestion. afaik.
revising this just to get hit with the "it's a case by case basis" is useless

you can SEE the staff thread linked in the op mention other standards (peep agna post) for this, you don't have to abide by every rule hyper literally like it's word of god without applying any critical thought to them, they exist to help you in a general sense with how one off interactions has solid grounds for reaction and continued behavior justifies combat



also....nothing here even mentions you need several interactions, it just says speed of fighting and that multiple reaction interactions can switch it up combat that's it. When you can explicitly see someone perform physical executions equivalent to offense it ends up qualifying regardless. offensive equivalent maneuvers are your combat speed. That's semantics gooning dude

But even outside of that, there's still the fact that the Sharingan's precog and enhanced perceptions make it far harder to justify it being combat speed.

You can be 10% LS and still react and block a LS attack if you know its exact trajectory steps in advance, can perceive muscle twitches and movements to a microscopic level, and perceive things slower than they're actually moving.
you're inventing problems that never existed, being able to time an attack in advance doesn't change the fact that the speed of the forward arm thrust is gonna be the same when trying to slice someone

you can argue sasuke isnt as fast as mifune due to the precog which is fine, feel free to make a calc thread to get it removed but whatever speed sasuke ends up making to strike forward is still the same everywhere else
 
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revising this just to get hit with the "it's a case by case basis" is useless

you can SEE the staff thread linked in the op mention other standards (peep agna post) for this, you don't have to abide by every rule hyper literally like it's word of god, they exist to help you in a general sense with how one off interactions has solid grounds for reaction and continued behavior justifies combat

also....nothing here even mentions you need several interactions, it just says speed of fighting and that multiple reaction interactions can switch it up combat that's it. When you can explicitly see someone perform physical executions equivalent to offense it ends up qualifying regardless. offensive equivalent maneuvers are your combat speed. That's semantics gooning dude
It would be semantics if we had a reason that this situation is distinctly different from normal reaction feats and more applicable to combat speed, but it really isn't.

Mifune jumped into Sasuke's field of vision with his hand on his sword. next panel, Sasuke responds to Mifune's attack.

With the context of all the advantages the Sharingan gives you and the fact that Sasuke is just responding to one telegraphed motion that he knew was coming at the end of the day, it's a blatant reaction speed feat.
you're inventing problems that never existed, being able to time an attack in advance doesn't change the fact that the speed of the forward arm thrust is gonna be the same when trying to slice someone
You're underselling just how much of an advantage precog is to responding to an attack.

Normally, the instant you perceive something coming at you, your brain's synapses fire to send a signal to your body parts to move according to how you believe is the best immediate action to respond to whatever the opponent throws at you.

However, Sasuke has eyes that passively tell him via clear 4k images where an attack is coming from, where it's going to land, and all the ins and outs of the attacker's precise muscle movements, and the ability to see chakra to know when a jutsu is being built up.

Not even to mention that his perception is far greater with his Sharingan, so things just move slower from his perspective.

The 2T Sharingan was already a big boost to perception speed, Kakashi couldn't even use Chidori bc of how fast he was moving, his brain couldn't respond fast enough to make any adjustments mid-combat without it.

And the evolution from 2T to 3T let Sasuke go from being blitzed by Naruto to completely outclassing him in h2h, it's not like he himself got significantly faster outside of perception speed, but that analytical prediction provided such an advantage that Naruto's speed advantage didn't matter.

All Mifune did when he appeared in Sasuke's vision (which was already a very telegraphed "a sword attack is coming stance") was draw his sword and slash, aka Iaido; however with 3T Sharingan level foresight, Sasuke can see what Mifune intends to do and start moving in response before Mifune even finishes the thought to start drawing his sword.

That's not a combat speed feat at all; worse analytical prediction abilities let humans level people in fiction dodge bullets from close range without being as fast as a bullet.

Foresight on that level lets you cut practically all of the decision-making process out and just respond to the exact attack you know is coming.

The benefits of precog are also why sharingan jutsu copy lets you finish casting the jutsu faster than the user; they require less time to process the information to make the decision than the user.

There's even examples of this with worse analytical prediction abilities in Naruto, Kimimaro was able to outclass a lot of fast characters like KN0 Nard and Lee with his skill and analytical prediction, but the second Lee got drunk and Kimimaro no longer had the ability to predict him, he started to get overwhelmed and was no longer able to counter Lee's speed effectively, eventually to the point where he had to transform.

And Kimimaro's predictions have nothing on a 3T Sharingan.
 
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It would be semantics if we had a reason that this situation is distinctly different from normal reaction feats and more applicable to combat speed, but it really isn't.

Mifune jumped into Sasuke's field of vision with his hand on his sword. next panel, Sasuke responds to Mifune's attack.

With the context of all the advantages the Sharingan gives you and the fact that Sasuke is just responding to one telegraphed motion that he knew was coming at the end of the day, it's a blatant reaction speed feat.

You're underselling just how much of an advantage precog is to responding to an attack.

Normally, the instant you perceive something coming at you, your brain's synapses fire to send a signal to your body parts to move according to how you believe is the best immediate action to respond to whatever the opponent throws at you.

However, Sasuke has eyes that passively tell him via clear 4k images where an attack is coming from, where it's going to land, and all the ins and outs of the attacker's precise muscle movements, and the ability to see chakra to know when a jutsu is being built up.

Not even to mention that his perception is far greater with his Sharingan, so things just move slower from his perspective.

The 2T Sharingan was already a big boost to perception speed, Kakashi couldn't even use Chidori bc of how fast he was moving, his brain couldn't respond fast enough to make any adjustments mid-combat without it.

And the evolution from 2T to 3T let Sasuke go from being blitzed by Naruto to completely outclassing him in h2h, it's not like he himself got significantly faster outside of perception speed, but that analytical prediction provided such an advantage that Naruto's speed advantage didn't matter.

All Mifune did when he appeared in Sasuke's vision (which was already a very telegraphed "a sword attack is coming stance") was draw his sword and slash, aka Iaido; however with 3T Sharingan level foresight, Sasuke can see what Mifune intends to do and start moving in response before Mifune even finishes the thought to start drawing his sword.

That's not a combat speed feat at all; worse analytical prediction abilities let humans level people in fiction dodge bullets from close range without being as fast as a bullet.

Foresight on that level lets you cut practically all of the decision-making process out and just respond to the exact attack you know is coming.

The benefits of precog are also why sharingan jutsu copy lets you finish casting the jutsu faster than the user; they require less time to process the information to make the decision than the user.

There's even examples of this with worse analytical prediction abilities in Naruto, Kimimaro was able to outclass a lot of fast characters like KN0 Nard and Lee with his skill and analytical prediction, but the second Lee got drunk and Kimimaro no longer had the ability to predict him, he started to get overwhelmed and was no longer able to counter Lee's speed effectively, eventually to the point where he had to transform.

And Kimimaro's predictions have nothing on a 3T Sharingan.
Sounds increasingly like you don't believe it was even a speed feat at all. Neither combat nor reaction.
 
It's classified as attack speed, not general combat speed.
That's because Iaido is a specific kind of attacking that can't be done multiple times in a row, either way it's a single sword movement that's not considered reaction speed. Taking this idea and running with it, you could argue any blitz one shots that don't involve running are reaction speed.
 
Sounds increasingly like you don't believe it was even a speed feat at all. Neither combat nor reaction.
No it's definitely a reaction speed feat, the Sharingan is just a really cracked reaction amp.

Analytical Predictions and Enhanced Perception aided reaction feats are still reaction feats.
 
No it's definitely a reaction speed feat, the Sharingan is just a really cracked reaction amp.
Tbh idk if we consider precog/analytical prediction as just reaction amps, that's why we removed Spider-Man's spider sense from his speed section
 
I think it's case by case tbh,

SM's spidey sense is just an all-around "hey, something is about to hit you, move somewhere else" detector.

practically lets you AOE aim dodge.

Whereas the Sharingan just amplifies the tools used to react to an insane degree.

perceptions, visual depth and acuity, etc.
 
i think its case by case tbh

SM's spidey sense is just an all-around "hey, something is about to hit you, move somewhere else" detector.

Whereas the Sharingan just amplifies the tools used to react to an insane degree.

perceptions, visual depth and acuity, etc.
To a big degree but I see your point
 
it's a blatant reaction speed feat.
Brother it can be a combat applicable reaction. They’re not mutually exclusive, it would be that if Sauske responded in a manner he cannot replicate for his offensive actions e.g. tilting the head side ways to evade a beam

You need to prove the speed at which you throw your hands, the same speed cannot be employed for slicing someone’s throat

You’re not doing that and you’re just parroting the same line about how it’s a blatant reaction speed feat and stopping there without further elaboration as to why it can’t get used for combat as well and ignoring all the points I’ve brought up so far in support of it

You're underselling just how much of an advantage precog is to responding to an attack.

And the evolution from 2T to 3T let Sasuke go from being blitzed by Naruto to completely outclassing him in h2h, it's not like he himself got significantly faster outside of perception speed, but that analytical prediction provided such an advantage that Naruto's speed advantage didn't matter.

All Mifune did when he appeared in Sasuke's vision (which was already a very telegraphed "a sword attack is coming stance") was draw his sword and slash, aka Iaido; however with 3T Sharingan level foresight, Sasuke can see what Mifune intends to do and start moving in response before Mifune even finishes the thought to start drawing his sword.

That's not a combat speed feat at all; worse analytical prediction abilities let humans level people in fiction dodge bullets from close range without being as fast as a bullet..

I understand precognition, you don’t have to keep repeating something I know, something that doesn’t conflict with anything I say, the Sharingan can only make your mind register something is happening very quickly but if you register an attack but aren’t fast enough you won’t be able to dodge or tag them (ch37), whatever timed attack you launch is still relying on bodily function that works separately, no different from striking unless it’s the examples I’ve shown at the start like tilting side ways and stuff
Idk how kishimoto spelled these out for people to still somehow not get it?
  • Also few attacks matter to the precog because the way he gets the images with his kinetic vision is by seeing how power builds through cells and muscles in the body. Jumping in the air and then slashing with the sword isn’t the same as moving around on the ground where you can see power in the body/muscles and the way the arm would swing. You can’t do that with swords, have don’t have different parts that tell you how they move like a body nor the tiny cells
  • Sharingan can easily be argued to amp speeds, Chapter 46, guy can react but after sasuke activates sharingan he gets blitzed. NOTHING to do with reaction instead he’s gettin sped up
  • Lotta these arguments (precog) are stuff used to discredit people from getting scaling to the thing they dodged not to say the thing they speed with which dodged (in our case striked) regardless of speed can't be replicated
 
Even if Sasuke's feat is pure reaction, he does it while using 3T, and Raikage later blitzes his MS basically, so wouldn't it scale to Raikage+ regardless?
 
Brother it can be a combat applicable reaction. They’re not mutually exclusive, it would be that if Sauske responded in a manner he cannot replicate for his offensive actions e.g. tilting the head side ways to evade a beam

You need to prove the speed at which you throw your hands, the same speed cannot be employed for slicing someone’s throat

You’re not doing that and you’re just parroting the same line about how it’s a blatant reaction speed feat and stopping there without further elaboration as to why it can’t get used for combat as well and ignoring all the points I’ve brought up so far in support of it
That's not for me to have to explain,

If you believe that a reaction feat is combat-applicable, you need to provide evidence for that to be the case, and so far, there isn't any.
I understand precognition, you don’t have to keep repeating something I know, something that doesn’t conflict with anything I say, the Sharingan can only make your mind register something is happening very quickly but if you register an attack but aren’t fast enough you won’t be able to dodge or tag them (ch37), whatever timed attack you launch is still relying on bodily function that works separately, no different from striking unless it’s the examples I’ve shown at the start like tilting side ways and stuff
Idk how kishimoto spelled these out for people to still somehow not get it?
You're addressing Lee's comments as if they're infallible, but that scene showed his own lack of understanding about the Sharingan.

For one, you're addressing things Lee said while Sasuke still had the 2T Sharingan, one far inferior that doesn't even provide the level of foresight I brought up in that message, and not only that, he needed a 5x amp via the 1st gate just to get around the 2T Sharingan's inferior Precog.

FV quite literally shows the opposite once Sasuke awakens his 3T Sharingan, KN0 Naruto was too fast for his mind and body to respond to, but a mature 3T Sharingan's reaction amp was so vast it didn't even matter.
  • Also few attacks matter to the precog because the way he gets the images with his kinetic vision is by seeing how power builds through cells and muscles in the body. Jumping in the air and then slashing with the sword isn’t the same as moving around on the ground where you can see power in the body/muscles and the way the arm would swing. You can’t do that with swords, have don’t have different parts that tell you how they move like a body nor the tiny cells
Being on the air or ground, quite literally, doesn't matter to his precog.

Not only is that never stated to be a weakness, nor does anything imply it's less effective that way, but that also just makes 0 sense.

For one, you don't have to be staring at the muscles and cells themselves in isolated and constant movement for it to work, the same way just by having clothes on doesn't hinder Sasuke's ability to observe and precog you passively, despite it being largely muscle movement reading his precog accounts for the movements his targets clothes make along with their entire body despite being not made up of muscle and biological cells.

The Sharingan's attention to detail can go down to the cellular level, see through objects, see chakra as colors, and again, perceive things far slower than they travel, and see each individual movement as a framed picture for him to analyze.

Being in the air doesn't change the motions Mifune has to make to draw his sword, nor the force he needed to put into his legs to jump up there.

As for the sword point, that's equally irrelevant because a sword's entire trajectory is based on the physical movements of its wielder. If this were an unconventional sword that moved independently of its wielder's thoughts, then you would have a point.

Otherwise, much like how clothes are still accounted for in Sasuke's visions of the future, a sword would be too, being inanimate never mattered for his precog.

Unless you can prove Mifune's sword moves independently from his thoughts, then Mifune's physical movements would telegraph the path his sword would travel to reach Sasuke.
  • Sharingan can easily be argued to amp speeds, Chapter 46, guy can react but after sasuke activates sharingan he gets blitzed. NOTHING to do with reaction instead he’s gettin sped up
Shinobi can blitz ppl whenever they want with Shunshin.

What even ties Sasuke's movement speed in that instance back to him activating the Sharingan rather than him using it to assist his foot to aim and kick a Kunai at someone trying to get away at high speeds, and then Shunshining after him?
  • Lotta these arguments (precog) are stuff used to discredit people from getting scaling to the thing they dodged not to say the thing they speed with which dodged (in our case striked) regardless of speed can't be replicated
Or are people using the lore of the series to accurately depict the feats?

It's not an attempt to discredit something if it's a valid point; bringing up Sasuke's actual powers that assist him in the exact regard this feat is talking about isn't some form of gatekeeping.

Why would we try to ignore that massive reactions buff the Sharingan gives Sasuke at all times, just to force this to be a combat speed applicable feat?
Even if Sasuke's feat is pure reaction, he does it while using 3T, and Raikage later blitzes his MS basically, so wouldn't it scale to Raikage+ regardless?
He does in the sandbox, yeah.
 
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We're just rying to make sure if the feat can be combat applicable or not for FKS Sasuke specifically, not for other characters that scale.

I can see why he wouldnt get it for travel but for attack speed and jutsu that scale above attack speed it only makes sense to at least downscale

But thats for you all to decide
 
Thank you for the evaluation
For the staffs voting Neutral, may I ask why?
There isn't any standing counterargument against the Sasuke calc
  • Mifune's stuff was already accepted to be LS in this thread

  • There's no issue regarding its usage against Sasuke as proven in the message here (and the ones above it) with no counterargument against that

  • And there's an accepted calc for Sasuke with that in mind
So, I'm not entirely sure what the issue is
 
For the staffs voting Neutral, may I ask why?
If I can explain why I'm currently not in favor of it, it would be because in the first place, in the original thread, I never voted in favor of Mifune's attacks in general being lightspeed but just his Iaido. Specifically noting how I didn't believe Mifune used his Iaido against Sasuke.

The one time Mifune's swordsmanship is ever described as being lightspeed (only in a databook), it is when he was doing his quick-draw slash to send a flying slash at the Ten-Tails. At no other point is his attacks described as lightspeed, even in the other databook page that shows a panel of him clashing with Sasuke all it does is describe Mifune as fast:
Iaido is the act of quickly drawing and reacting to sudden attacks with your sword strike WHICH HE LITERALLY DOES, he does everything that would qualify as Iaido and then the panel deadass lists that interaction as a reference for his Iaido , at this point this is terrible argument from ignorance
I don't believe this sequence of pages is showing what Ghost is describing it does. Mifune is attacking Sasuke with a drawn sword here; he is not performing a quick-draw against him. And there is no other additional evidence that Mifune is attacking at lightspeed here. If your interpretation is that Mifune is attacking him at lightspeed here, then that's fine, but there's not enough direct evidence of that for me.

The next highest calc in the verse for characters of this level is the one in the OP which is 30 times slower than Sasuke's reaction calc here. That represents a pretty big boost to make on evidence that I don't consider to be particularly solid.

With all that in mind, I think it is safest to vote against the current proposal though I can see where other people are coming from with their interpretation. So I'm changing my vote back to disagree specifically for the Sasuke scaling.

For the record, this is just me explaining my position since you asked; I'm not trying to convince you to change your own position. Hopefully the other staff members can explain their own throughs on it. @DarkDragonMedeus @LephyrTheRevanchist
 
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As sparkle said, all that is frankly irrelevant given that the databook in question:
1. Mentions Iaido
2. Mentions it while (and I cannot stress this enough) pointing directly at the feat in question
Even if the above didn't exist (as blatant as they are), Mifune has no reason to nerf himself while squaring up against someone who just murdered multiple samurais in cold blood

Oh well, your disagreement is noted
 
The specific term Iaido is used in reference to Mifune's attack against Sasuke, you don't need any other evidence
While this bit of the databook alone isn't convincing to me, I've done some more research and double-check the anime for the scene. I agree with the Sasuke part of the OP insofar as a reaction feat for Sasuke with the Sharingan.

However, going through the sandbox, I don't think the leap to Faster Than Light reactions with the Mangekyou Sharingan is substantiated enough. There are no scans for the justification that would support a jump to 1c, or 1.1c.
 
While this bit of the databook alone isn't convincing to me, I've done some more research and double-check the anime for the scene. I agree with the Sasuke part of the OP insofar as a reaction feat for Sasuke with the Sharingan.

However, going through the sandbox, I don't think the leap to Faster Than Light reactions with the Mangekyou Sharingan is substantiated enough. There are no scans for the justification that would support a jump to 1c, or 1.1c.
You don't believe the Mangekyou is substantially better at perception than regular Sharingan?
 
While this bit of the databook alone isn't convincing to me, I've done some more research and double-check the anime for the scene. I agree with the Sasuke part of the OP insofar as a reaction feat for Sasuke with the Sharingan.

However, going through the sandbox, I don't think the leap to Faster Than Light reactions with the Mangekyou Sharingan is substantiated enough. There are no scans for the justification that would support a jump to 1c, or 1.1c.
I think it's moreso that Sasuke has ls perception with 3 tomoe and raikage blitzed a ms Sasuke perception.
Unless you don't believe Sasuke has light speed perceptions.

Also it's less than a 1.2 increase . I think that's in line with upscaling
 
While this bit of the databook alone isn't convincing to me, I've done some more research and double-check the anime for the scene. I agree with the Sasuke part of the OP insofar as a reaction feat for Sasuke with the Sharingan.

However, going through the sandbox, I don't think the leap to Faster Than Light reactions with the Mangekyou Sharingan is substantiated enough. There are no scans for the justification that would support a jump to 1c, or 1.1c.
Upscaling to the next tier when 1.2x away is accepted and allowed in the wiki, so that isn’t really a counterpoint, I can understand not liking the 1.1c since it’s a 10% buff, we can list it as 1.0001c if it makes it easier for you to digest the point of the boost was to signify entering the next tier and not the jump itself
 
Wouldn't it make more sense to just call it at SOL and put it at exactly SOL, since that's technically the next tier? Just give MS SOL reactions since we're up-scaling from 0.86 and anything above that is FTL.
 
Upscaling to the next tier when 1.2x away is accepted and allowed in the wiki, so that isn’t really a counterpoint, I can understand not liking the 1.1c since it’s a 10% buff, we can list it as 1.0001c if it makes it easier for you to digest the point of the boost was to signify entering the next tier and not the jump itself
There are no hard rules on upscaling. And my point remains that the current sandbox doesn't link to any evidence to support it.

I think it's moreso that Sasuke has ls perception with 3 tomoe and raikage blitzed a ms Sasuke perception.
Unless you don't believe Sasuke has light speed perceptions.
I'm just going off of the current sandbox. And at the moment I don't think Sasuke has lightspeed perceptions; Mifune jumped up into his field of view prior to attacking, so Sasuke had more time than just the attack itself in order to be able to percieve an incoming threat and react to it.
 
There are no hard rules on upscaling. And my point remains that the current sandbox doesn't link to any evidence to support it.
Damage not every little ruling needs to spoonfed like a strict manual with no room to think otherwise

In times like these, We use discretion to determine what is acceptable and what is inflative, given the difference between SOL and this calc being a mere 1.16x which is well under the unanimously agreed threshold for upscaling (generally stated at 1.2x) it would be perfectly fair game to upscale, especially in Naruto where characters are constantly getting stronger and faster within a single arc.

So we'll just leave this up to staff discretion, since Nierre & Tracer have accepted the jump in their judgement I believe it’s perfectly fine to advance.



As for what Tracer replied with, if 1c is under FTL, then I think we can change the 1.1c to simply 1c, problem solved 👍🏽
 
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