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Issues with Higher dimensional Manipulation

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Theglassman12

Theglassman12

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Alright, this has been bugging me for some time, but to get to the point, Higher dimensional Manipulation feels really redundant as an ability. Ignoring how bare bones the ability is in the first place as all it has is just this.

Higher Dimensional Manipulation is the ability to manipulate greater spatial and temporal dimensions than 3-D space, such as 4-D space and above.
Click to expand...

But this doesn't sound much different than having tier 2 range or above when it comes to affecting anything higher dimensional. Especially when someone who's higher dimensional in nature can be affected by having the sufficient range to affect said being in the first place. So I have 2 proposals for the page. Either we revise the page to add more than just what amounts to having good enough range to affect the HD being, or we nuke the page overall, especially if there's no alternative to make the page distinct from having good range.

Nuke the Page: 1 (Rabbit)

Revise the Page: 1 (Delta)
 
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I propose nuking the page since it feels really redundant, if anyone has any good alternatives for how to alter the page to make it not just a mere range thing, then it can be presented here.
 
The page really isn't redundant, as it has applications beyond regular spatial manipulation. E.g. changing the dimensionality of things or all kinds of whacky stuff related to dimensionality (e.g. "phasing" in and out of existence by slightly changing ones position in higher dimensions, making klein bottles etc.)
 
@DontTalkDT shouldn't there be more elaboration to that beyond the bare bones description it currently has? And can I at least ask how Higher dimensional manipulation differs from just having really good range? Because some profiles just have higher dimensional manipulation for affecting a timeline with no more elaboration on this.
 
DontTalkDT said:
The page really isn't redundant, as it has applications beyond regular spatial manipulation. E.g. changing the dimensionality of things or all kinds of whacky stuff related to dimensionality (e.g. "phasing" in and out of existence by slightly changing ones position in higher dimensions, making klein bottles etc.)
Click to expand...
That's not how alot of profiles treat it. Simply being able to alter a higher dimension, basically 4D+ reality warping, has been used to give it.
 
Well, as said good usage can be stuff like what is mentioned above.

Low-end usage is just having your attacks move and change higher-dimensional spaces.
One could argue about changing the baseline to disqualify simply higher-dimensional attacks, but then, should we?

I think for range we accept affecting spaces that are not actually 5D, but only equal to such, as well.
For the ability IIRC we some time ago established to go strictly with actual dimensions.
The low-end as such serves a purpose. It differentiates those that, for example, are Tier 1 via R>F from those that are Tier 1 due to affecting actual higher dimensions.
 
so instead of it being a range thing where you just can affect the higher dimensional thing in a general sense, it should involve complete manipulation in a wide variety of ways. I assume that’s what you’re explaining?

also what about characters who only have higher dimensional manipulation for affecting a timeline? Because characters arbitrarily have that ability with little to no explanation beyond the timeline being affected by their power.
 
Characters that can effect timeline is, the same argument can be used that any characters who are 2-A or above is capable to do it without even showing the feat for it. At this moment, you are giving everyone who is low 2-C, a higher dimensional manipulation.

So I believe there should be some limitations under the ability, otherwise using the same logic as I stated above, this can be counted as reality wraping as well.
 
Restrict it to spatial dimensions above 4-D as it causes overlap with time manipulation, and only for characters whose existence is bound by lower dimensionality as it makes no grammatical sense for ‘higher’ dimensional manipulation to apply to a character that exists in the same level of dimensionality as the space he is manipulating.
 
In case we revise the page to make it differ from just range and spatial hax, can we also change the name to just dimension manip instead? Because some characters can influence lower dimensions as well and there is no proper page for that ability.
 
Literally anything is better than what we currently have on the page, cause some characters just have it for what amounts to a range feat.
 
Well, I am open for suggestions regarding an appropriate instruction text for the page in question.

@DontTalkDT
 
@DontTalkDT can you elaborate what types of applications would be needed to even qualify for Higher dimensional manipulation as opposed to it being just range? Because some pages don’t really explain higher dimensional manipulation the same way you label it as.
 
Changing the dimensionality of someone works for me as one of the applications, although by that logic we should change the name to dimension manip rather than just higher dimension manip because some characters that I know can reduce someone into flat 2-D size and such influence on lower dimension has no page at all.
 
That's fine by me, mixing it with another ability not indexed can kill two birds with one stone.
 
DontTalkDT said:
The page really isn't redundant, as it has applications beyond regular spatial manipulation. E.g. changing the dimensionality of things or all kinds of whacky stuff related to dimensionality (e.g. "phasing" in and out of existence by slightly changing ones position in higher dimensions, making klein bottles etc.)
Click to expand...
I don't see why changing the dimensionality of an object is something that can't be classified as Spatial Manipulation. Of course, there might be cases where temporal, not spatial, dimensionality is what is being meddled with, but in such situations, I'd say we can just index the feat as Time Manipulation. You could generalize that to whatever other wacky thought-experiments related to dimensions that fiction might come up with: The Star Maker at one point creates universes with "musical dimensions," and I see no issue with classifying that as being Sound Manipulation, if a very esoteric form of it.

Phasing out of existence by changing your position in a higher dimension can also be accomplished by... moving, if you're a higher-dimensional entity, which falls under Higher-Dimensional Existence. So far, the only feasible use for Higher-Dimensional Manipulation that I can think of is for characters who can displace themselves through higher dimensions without being higher-dimensional themselves, and even then I wouldn't call this "manipulation" of any kind.
 
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Ultima_Reality said:
I don't see why changing the dimensionality of an object is something that can't be classified as Spatial Manipulation. Of course, there might be cases where temporal, not spatial, dimensionality is what is being meddled with, but in such situations, I'd say we can just index the feat as Time Manipulation. You could generalize that to whatever other wacky thought-experiments related to dimensions that fiction might come up with: The Star Maker at one point creates universes with "musical dimensions," and I see no issue with classifying that as being Sound Manipulation, if a very esoteric form of it.

Phasing out of existence by changing your position in a higher dimension can also be accomplished by... moving, if you're a higher-dimensional entity, which falls under Higher-Dimensional Existence. So far, the only feasible use for Higher-Dimensional Manipulation that I can think of is for characters who can displace themselves through higher dimensions without being higher-dimensional themselves, and even then I wouldn't call this "manipulation" of any kind.
Click to expand...
The change of one's dimensionality will also influence the hax potency/stats of them so should it be more than just spatial manip which only affects the space?
 
Ultima_Reality said:
I don't see why changing the dimensionality of an object is something that can't be classified as Spatial Manipulation. Of course, there might be cases where temporal, not spatial, dimensionality is what is being meddled with, but in such situations, I'd say we can just index the feat as Time Manipulation. You could generalize that to whatever other wacky thought-experiments related to dimensions that fiction might come up with: The Star Maker at one point creates universes with "musical dimensions," and I see no issue with classifying that as being Sound Manipulation, if a very esoteric form of it.

Phasing out of existence by changing your position in a higher dimension can also be accomplished by... moving, if you're a higher-dimensional entity, which falls under Higher-Dimensional Existence. So far, the only feasible use for Higher-Dimensional Manipulation that I can think of is for characters who can displace themselves through higher dimensions without being higher-dimensional themselves, and even then I wouldn't call this "manipulation" of any kind.
Click to expand...
You could accomplish these effects via spatial manipulation or some other powers, sure. But they are still rather distinct effects.
You can also accomplish teleportation via spatial manipulation or time stop via time manipulation. Or manipulate earth via matter manipulation.
Just because one power can be accomplished via another doesn't mean we don't list it. Seeing how higher dimensional manipulation is an extreme edge case not remotely within the abilities of any more regular spatial manipulator and, simultaneously, has relevance and a decent number of users, it's justified to stay.
Theglassman12 said:
@DontTalkDT can you elaborate what types of applications would be needed to even qualify for Higher dimensional manipulation as opposed to it being just range? Because some pages don’t really explain higher dimensional manipulation the same way you label it as.
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One interesting aspect of this is that Higher-DImensional Manipulation also includes cases that don't have range. I.e. characters that can manipulate higher dimensions in a not tiering applicable way.
But in general, I personally would list it whenever higher dimensions, in a mathematical sense, were manipulated, instead of in an equivalent way.

So, personally, I would want to rewrite the page to:
Higher Dimensional Manipulation is the ability to manipulate greater spatial and temporal dimensions than 3-D space, such as 4-D space and above. Note that only dimensions in mathematical sense are included, not manipulations of spaces merely equivalent to such.
Click to expand...
and then one can list a number of "possible uses" in a corresponding section.
 
@DontTalkDT How about instead of having it just Higher Dimensional Manipulation, we change the page to just Dimensional Manipulation? That way we could mix in abilities where characters can affect 2-D sizes or any dimensional sizes of an object with anything higher dimensional in nature? As for dimensions in a mathematical sense, are you referring to instances where characters would mention affecting 7-D objects that don’t have any hierarchy in their planes of existence or something else?
 
@Theglassman12 Can you elaborate what do you mean by “effect 2-D sizes”, sounds misleading at the first glance
I may understand what you are referring, but you mean “significantly effect”, would sounds better I assume?
 
Theglassman12 said:
Can we add an extra note on how merely affecting timelines shouldn’t qualify for HDM since it’s at best a range or AP feat as opposed to warping it in ways DT listed as?
Click to expand...
I mean, we can add more notes tho, such as manipulating 4D structure without any context does not qualify (many people asked this to me)
 
Idk if that wouldn’t count as a requirement, if it’s just affecting like you blew it up or whatever then yeah I agree it shouldn’t qualify since again thay can qualify as just AP or even range, manipulating the structure could potentially qualify as that may imply something more than just range or AP.
 
Theglassman12 said:
Idk if that wouldn’t count as a requirement, if it’s just affecting like you blew it up or whatever then yeah I agree it shouldn’t qualify since again thay can qualify as just AP or even range, manipulating the structure could potentially qualify as that may imply something more than just range or AP.
Click to expand...
It is not a requirement I am suggesting, it is a side note that many people countless asking me and also asking in the community. It is worth adding this note!
(I hope you understood what I am trying to say)

Also, no 4D structure is not the equivalent as 4D space, at least according to our wiki standards,
  • 4D space = 4 spatial dimensions
  • 4D structure = 3 spatial dimensions and 1 temporal dimension.
 
Does this redraft of the page look nice or should there be some more input regarding it?

Dimensional Manipulation is the ability to manipulate the dimensions that aren't limited to just the 3-D space. It's possible applications include being able to warp the dimensionality of the target to a higher or lower dimension, being capable of phasing in and out of existences by changing their positions in other dimensions, affecting the target by making them exist in more than one plane, among many other abilities. Note that only dimensions in mathematical sense are included, not manipulations of hierarchical spaces merely equivalent to such, and neither does affecting entire timelines as without further context, it could be classified as an AP feat or a range feat for a particular ability.
Click to expand...
 
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Dimensional Manipulation is the ability to manipulate the dimensions that aren't limited to just the 3-D space
Click to expand...
So basically, manipulating 2-D space qualifies (if I understood it correctly?)
 
Theglassman12 said:
It can qualify especially if you’re warping someone’s dimensionality
Click to expand...
Ohhh, this changes the whole ability then. I see, thanks for clarification. Can you give me some instances for better transparency?
I will drop some that I can think can qualify or not
  1. Manipulating a structure (space-time continuum) significantly.
  2. Having a full control over a structure (space-time continuum)
  3. Using a structure to BFR someone and has full control over it.
  4. Manipulating timeline significantly
  5. Manipulating a structure that has 1 dimension (spatial).
  6. Changing your own existence to higher/lower dimension
 
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