JJK Speed Downgrade

[M3X_2.0]

This calculation is being used. It assumes the attack to be lightning.

This is electricity:

This is a lightning bolt:

Kashimo manipulates electricity, which means he uses both electrical discharge and lightning bolts. Not everything is a bolt.

This calc is much better, it fixes reactions issues like assuming Hakari letting the lightning coming close to his face to just right after, which we don't accept anymore. Remove the MHS rating slap the Subsonic rating.

 

[M3X_2.0]

This is a calc group discussion thread so please if you're not staff refrain from commenting. If you have any helpful arguments, feel free to comment.

 

[Dalesean027]

Following

 

[KLOL506]

Following

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

If you have any helpful arguments, feel free to comment.

I'm not commenting to argue regarding Calculation but I will just post the scans where it's same attack. Kashimo body works like electricity but not his one time strike which works as lightning strike. So Hakari indeed dodged the lightning.

Spoiler

Same attack. That's a lightining strike.

I'm off.

 

[M3X_2.0]

Make these images a bit smaller please.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Make these images a bit smaller please.

Now I put them into spoiler if that works.

 

[Duedate8898]

We know the attack he used against Hakari in that moment is a lightning bolt for the sake of the calc because the first time the ability is shown we're given this explanation. The attack is explicitly called out as lightning, and the explanation given follows the principle for a lightning strike hence it originally being accepted last I checked.

It's the same attack just with a different method of focus.

 

[PowerToScale]

This seems pretty necro and has been discussed before but anyway:

Properties for it being lightning:
1) It is called lightning twice.
2) Making muscles of affected beings contract.
3) It is formed through the same process as real lightning as he builds up negative and positive charges in his opponent through combat to guide the lightning strike.
4) Kashimo can also showcase abilities such as generating a electric field around him and creating electrolysis showing its real lightning.
5) Significantly more powerful than a regular bolt of lightning therefore should be comparable to it.

Meeting the standards.

In regards to the calc, this has also been discussed before as well. The calc assumes that Hakari's arm is well behind him and only moved his head out of the way. This is contradict as in the same scan before Hakari is hit and after is full face forwards with his shoulders not once was it behind him as it suggests. There isn't a reaction issue, as quite literally as he turns around there is a bolt of lightning right in front of him, which he dodges to the side to avoid his head, literally wasn't expecting it.

Kashimo manipulates electricity, which means he uses both electrical discharge and lightning bolts. Not everything is a bolt.

Not true. It was confirmed the first time when he shoots a bolt that its lightning, and again when he plans to shoot it again to blow up Hakari's head. Kashimo has never shot out a bolt that isn't his lightning nor is it differentiated to be something different. Not only that even if the it was "simple electricity" the said bolt is still legitimate lightning and still significantly more powerful than a regular bolt of lightning and would be comparable to real lightning.

Agenda Kaisen is real

 

[SunDaGamer]

it fixes reactions issues like assuming Hakari letting the lightning coming close to his face to just right after, which we don't accept anymore.

I assume we're using the same principle as this:

Refrain from calculating feats based on dodging attacks from other characters at extreme proximity, as this is primarily a trope used to exaggerate a narrow miss rather than a literal representation of overwhelming speed. Taking it at face value is often inconsistent with the battle in which the feat occurs, where the opponents are presented as equals, but the calculation results in them being considered several times faster. This should only be used when the character in question is greatly superior to the one who's attack he is evading and the speed of the attack is concretely stated, such as being able to surpass the speed of sound, or light, or uses a basis in the Real World such as the speed of an athlete's punch.

 

[M3X_2.0]

I assume we're using the same principle as this:

Yes.

 

[PowerToScale]

I assume we're using the same principle as this:

Yes.

This wouldn't cover this feat. As this is relating to physical punches as it's labelled. This is referring feats of dodging attacks such as dodging punches from a characters while using regular punching speeds to get results such as supersonic but said character who's punch was regular human is still keeps up with the character creating a circular scaling, inflating results. As labeled in the rule "This should only be used when the character in question is greatly superior to the one who's attack he is evading and the speed of the attack is concretely stated, such as being able to surpass the speed of sound, or light, or uses a basis in the Real World such as the speed of an athlete's punch." Lightning is someone that has a real world basis and speed, he isn't dodging an attack with a arbitrary speed, but a real world phenomena that has a set speed.

This feat is different from what it saying the rule, not only that but the speed gained from the feat is not creating a circular scaling situation as isn't the situation outlined at the beginning, it would be "X speed (from dodging feat), Y speed via lightning". And wouldn't contradict anything.

This very much feels a misrepresentation of the feat just to get a lower result.

 

[M3X_2.0]

Actually, this feat is the literal example of this new rule.

 

[M3X_2.0]

This wouldn't cover this feat. As this is relating to physical punches as it's labelled.

The principle is the same. It also falls under this, which is basically the same thing.https://media.**********.net/attachments/620426095019294721/1182923992613519370/image.png?ex=658676d1&is=657401d1&hm=798a288273897b55d43e1d1f4edb256dce9bdecdbb57a0b22b06c6129fc375d3&

 

[PowerToScale]

Actually, this feat is the literal example of this new rule.

The principle is the same. It also falls under this, which is basically the same thing.https://media.**********.net/attachments/620426095019294721/1182923992613519370/image.png?ex=658676d1&is=657401d1&hm=798a288273897b55d43e1d1f4edb256dce9bdecdbb57a0b22b06c6129fc375d3&

It really isn't. The rule is talking about how calcs of dodging attacks from a narrow distance can inflate results as said attacker is comparable in speed to the person dodging creating a situation of circular scaling and inconsistency in the fight. The results are suggesting that the character is superior despite being portrayed equal in the story, hence it being a bit of dramatic showcasing. You should only calc with attack of a stated speed or if dodging something that is based in the real world. like a athlete's punch speed, bullets, light, meteors etc...

Now, Hakari's feat doesn't break this rule. Hakari's feat is him dodging lightning(real world basis) not Kashimo's fist, with lightning having a set speed, just like it says in the rule itself "This should only be used when the character in question is greatly superior to the one who's attack he is evading and the speed of the attack is concretely stated, such as being able to surpass the speed of sound, or light, or uses a basis in the Real World such as the speed of an athlete's punch." This rule as its labeled is only referring to the punches of the person. This rule has no affect on the feat as the speed of lightning =/= Kashimo's speed, the feat that was calced results in speeds slower than the lightning bolt, Kashimo's speed, which isn't reliant on the lightning but Hakari.

In turn this means that: Hakari/Kashimo < lightning bolt

If the situation was that Kashimo threw a punch and Hakari dodged in the same manner, this rule would apply as then it created that inconsistency of " The results are suggesting that the character is superior despite being portrayed equal in the story," but it doesn't Hakari is dodging an ability that uses a real world basis, this attack doesn't directly affect Kashimo, it isn't him but a its own entity, it's speed is reliant on itself. Hence the ratings being

X Speed (Calc), Y speed via certain attack (Lightning)

 

[M3X_2.0]

Dude, we really don’t need your big comments here. You write a bunch to say the same you could’ve said in a few lines.

And you’re misinterpreting this. Hakari’s feat falls under the rule from the screenshot I posted. Hakari is reacting at close range to something he’s slower. You’re fighting against our standards and math.

 

[SunDaGamer]

There's a few issues with the Mach 500 Hakari calc:

• The height used for Hakari is 171.8 cm even though he's taller than Yuji who's 173 cm
• The pixel scaling for the distance Hakari moves is wrong, likely due to the low quality scans, it should be like this
• It uses the distance Kashimo was away from Hakari instead of the distance the bolt was away from Hakari before he moves

I have my own version of the calc with those issues fixed and the same head scaling method to find the distance Hakari moves, it used the speed of electricity but I can substitute it with the speed of lightning:

• Reaction speed: (0.294*440000)/0.05501630434 = 2351302.97376 m/s, Mach 6855.11071 (Massively Hypersonic+) [Beyond the MHS+ cap set by Black Flash's 1 microsecond timeframe]
• Perception time: 0.721/440000 = 1.63863e-6 seconds, 1.63863 microseconds (Massively Hypersonic+)

Hakari ends up being x5.34 faster than lightning with his reaction speed being more than x3 better than his perception time, this is the same issue that falls under the evading punches rules.

 

[Dr._whiteee]

Dude, we really don’t need your big comments here. You write a bunch to say the same you could’ve said in a few lines.

And you’re misinterpreting this. Hakari’s feat falls under the rule from the screenshot I posted. Hakari is reacting at close range to something he’s slower. You’re fighting against our standards and math.

This doesn't really make much sense, as you yourself advocate for replacing the lightning speed with electricity speed. Narratively you'd still be left with the same problem, Kashimo's lightning being stated to be both lightning (and satisfying like all of the wiki criteria for it) and being pretty much a "sure hit" given it's speed, meaning it's a benchmark for most of the verse. So not only is the internal validity incorrect here (you're not fixing the issue brought up in the post above) but also it'd be externally invalid as it'd make no sense for his lightning to "sure hit" if it's not even much faster than sound/bullets and "subsonic" is clearly not anything special to the verse as even pre CE training yuji can move that fast.

If it breaks the new rule, remove the calc. Don't try and shoehorn another subsonic rating where it blatantly doesn't belong.

 

[M3X_2.0]

Well, I AM discussing with others on how to fix this issue, as I’m not sure how to properly calculate the reaction and perception time.

There is nothing I can do if the lightning doesn’t properly fit on the calculation.

If you use lightning speed, it gets MHS+ results, obviously an outlier. And I’m not even considering the Black Flash rule. It’s straight up an outlier.

If you use electricity speed, you either get Subsonic or Hypersonic depending on how you approach the calculation for perception.

Another option, just don’t use it at all.

Also, don’t come at me like that. Not my fault if everything proposed for this verse is massively wanked and wrong.

 

[Dr._whiteee]

Well, I AM discussing with others on how to fix this issue, as I’m not sure how to properly calculate the reaction and perception time.

There is nothing I can do if the lightning doesn’t properly fit on the calculation.

If you use lightning speed, it gets MHS+ results, obviously an outlier. And I’m not even considering the Black Flash rule. It’s straight up an outlier.

If you use electricity speed, you either get Subsonic or Hypersonic depending on how you approach the calculation for perception.

Another option, just don’t use it at all.

Also, don’t come at me like that. Not my fault if everything proposed for this verse is massively wanked and wrong.

I'm not coming at you; I'm just being blunt. If we know it's lightning and, for whatever reason, that doesn't fit the verse, then discard the calc. Changing it to electricity speed is altering the calc beyond what the feat was meant to be narratively. It'd also serve as an artificial barrier for future feats as one could then try and argue Kashimo/Hakari tier people are only mach 1.3, which is nuts. So I think the best course would just be deeming the feat to be unsalvageable.

 

[M3X_2.0]

Oh, about that. I brought this issue to the CGM chat. We’re currently discussing what is electricity and what is lightning, how to differentiate both and how to use both. If Kashimo’s lightning doesn’t fit as such then it won’t be used as lightning. This is how the wiki works.

 

[Dr._whiteee]

Oh, about that. I brought this issue to the CGM chat. We’re currently discussing what is electricity and what is lightning, how to differentiate both and how to use both. If Kashimo’s lightning doesn’t fit as such then it won’t be used as lightning. This is how the wiki works.

I mean, if the standards change then it is what it is, I'm speaking from the current wiki standards. I suppose you'll update us once a decision is made?

 

[M3X_2.0]

Of course, we’re still discussing, and I don’t even know if we will create requirements for it, it just depends if someone has any idea on how to properly differentiate both. And the reaction thing, we’re close to reaching a conclusion. It’s definitely the worst part of the calculation.

 

[M3X_2.0]

About reactions: It’s mostly certain that Hakari will always be slower than the attack, 42,98% faster (aka slower, lol).

Whatever you think the speed of the attack is, multiply by 0.4298. Lightning speed gives Mach 551. Low end electricity gives Subsonic results and mid end electricity gives Mach 4ish.

 

[M3X_2.0]

@KLOL506 @Dalesean027 the summary is

Tempest’s calc linked in the OP fixes issues with distances and reactions, it’s definitive that Hakari is slower than the attack, 42.98% the speed of it.

We didn’t reach a conclusion about the speed of the attack, but the options are:

Lightning speed: Gives Mach 550ish results, it’s an outlier.

Electricity speed (low and mid end): Subsonic to Supersonic results, but people don’t agree with electricity and would rather not use the calculation at all.

 

[Duedate8898]

I don't appreciate you making it out to be an outlier using the lightning speed end. I don't think that's important to determine whether the math is right or wrong here. Or whether it meets the conditions for being lightning.

The outlier arguments is for a Content Revision, not a Calc Group discussion.

 

[M3X_2.0]

We can pretty much determine the calc being an outlier here, but I don’t mind creating another thread for that.

 

[TheGunsFinalWrath]

@KLOL506 @Dalesean027 the summary is

Tempest’s calc linked in the OP fixes issues with distances and reactions, it’s definitive that Hakari is slower than the attack, 42.98% the speed of it.

We didn’t reach a conclusion about the speed of the attack, but the options are:

Lightning speed: Gives Mach 550ish results, it’s an outlier.

Electricity speed (low and mid end): Subsonic to Supersonic results, but people don’t agree with electricity and would rather not use the calculation at all.

If the lightning result is so difficult to accept, then simply just call it an outlier and move on. But trying to change that to electricity is just blatantly ignoring the whole narrative and idea of Kashimo's power to try and run with this narrative of his shtick being electricity, instead of lightning, as it becomes a literal act of ignorance



just one of the random things i find. like im sorry bro but electricity ain't gonna get a single pass, neither should it get such. so picking between outlier (and discarding the Calc potentially) or accepting the feat is the only options we got.

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

I would also like to mention that Gege called a real life scientist to make Kashimo's lightning as realistic as possible

Sure, we can make the feat a outlier or something. Thats fine. Kashimo's lightning moves so fuc.king fast thats said to be comparable to a Domain's can't-miss law, so its pretty much something not meant to be reacted even by Kashimo himself

We CANT just ignore the entire concept of the character, the fu.cking "God of Lightning", to create a calculation with false values just to make a consistent scaling