Joker's CRT

[The_real_cal_howard]

Currently Joker's mindhax is considered universal. The problem is, Earth is the only confirmed to be populated world. Furthermore, the phantom thieves being > Yaldy in mental propers because they can affect each other in R is the epitome of game mechanics.

Also, Personas have inf Low 2-C hax because they can affect Yaldy. Also game mechanics. What, is Ampharos's paralysis 2-B because it can work on Arceus? No!

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Tiering hax is kind of counterintuitive to the definition of the word most of the time, honestly.

I'm pretty sure this applies to much more than just Joker, but I nonetheless agree with this.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Thanks, mein comrade.

 

[Solacis]

While the premise for this thread's existence is questionable, I'll take this opportunity to explain this concept, at least.

1. The Phantom Thieves manifest their Cognition of Rebellion as their costumes through their willpower, which due to representing their rebellious will, protects them from the Cognition of the Palace Rulers (i.e. their control over their pocket realities). This is stated outright by Morgana in Kamoshida's Palace.

2. Cognition is very similar to Blazblue's Phenomena Interventio, in that it is a form of achieving various effects through a form of Reality Warping. All of these effects are thus resisted in turn by the Phantom Thieves through their "will to rebel" protecting them from the effects of other people's Cognitions.

3. Of Cognition's many, many abilities (which will eventually have to be compiled onto a page), one of them is Mind Manipulation, as displayed by Yaldabaoth's erasing the Phantom Thieves from the minds and memories of humanity and every Shadow in the Collective Unconscious.

4. Thus, when the Phantom Thieves have displayed a resistance to the effects of a specific Palace's Cognition, then it is equivalent to them resisting mindhax on the same scale as said Palace's Cognition. And because said Cognition is what created said Palaces in the first place, the potency of a Palace Ruler's Cognition is equal to their creation feat. With Kamoshida, that's Multi-City Block resistance, with Futaba it's Large Star, with Okumura it's Multi-Galaxy, with Yaldabaoth it's Universal+. It's as simple as that.

5. Therefore, when a Universal+ scale Cognition is used in the form of mindhax, and is resisted by the Phantom Thieves, then the Phantom Thieves have effectively resisted Universal+ mindhax.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

With Kamoshida, that's Multi-City Block resistance, with Futaba it's Large Star, with Okumura it's Multi-Galaxy, with Yaldabaoth it's Universal+. It's as simple as that.

We typically compare mindhax through the number of people/minds that it effects, not its range, though.

Someone mindscrewing an individual across the planet wouldn't be argued to be capable of mindscrewing someone who resisted mindhax that affected an entire city's worth of people, for reference.

So when you say "Multi-City Block resistance", there's kind of a contradiction, since "Multi-City Block" is describing the range, and "resistance" is describing the number of people that it can effect, and to what degree.

So while some of the logic here adds up, the conclusions don't really make much sense. There's no such thing as "Universe level mindhax" outside of mindhax that just has an effective range of a universe (unless that's what you're describing, in which case, my bad). You're comparing apples to oranges.

What Cal is saying is that since there's only one confirmed planet with a limited number of people, the most we can say is that Yaldy can mindscrew whatever the population of Persona 5's Earth is.

 

[Solacis]

The number of people affected is not the only measurement of Mindhax potency. Even if we do limit to just that, Yaldabaoth also affected every Shadow in the Collective Unconscious, which contains the equivalent of every mind that has ever lived from the beginning of Earth's development. Not just humans, but animals too, as specified in Persona 3 with Koromaru. Yaldabaoth collectively mindhaxed everything that has ever had a brain, both living and dead. And that's without taking into account the mechanics of Cognition.

Cognition is a verse mechanic. It's the backbone behind all of reality in Persona. As stated by Morgana, the entire world is a product of Cognition. In the context of Yaldabaoth's universal control over Cognition, what "is now" always "has been" because that's how the universe works. So, range = effect. Anyone caught in the range of its effects WILL be affected unless they resist said effects.

And speaking of verse mechanics, in the context of Persona, mind = soul. Cognition is capable of affecting EVERY soul in its range, in spite of said souls, mainly Shadows, scaling their resistance to soul manipulation to their durability. So naturally, in Persona, if a soul can tank a hit that can blow up a timeline, it can resist mindhax capable of affecting a timeline's worth of people.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

The number of people affected is not the only measurement of Mindhax potency.

By how we operate here (For most stuff below Tier 1), it is. I'm not sure how else to put it.

Even if ... mechanics of Cognition.

Then use that as the defining feat, preferably sourced with scans, instead of trying to backflip around how the site rates the ability.

If there's some other esoteric component being involved, label it respectively (i.e. Reality Warping, Soul Manipulation) and note that the respective resistance is needed.

Cognition ... effects.

I'm not sure how your conclusion, "range = effect" follows the premise, "the world is a product of cognition". If we quantify mindhax by number of individuals it can effect, range has nothing to do with potency. Nothing here suggests Persona is some kind of exception to this; ultimately they're still two entirely different metrics.

If Reality Warping is being involved, then that's sort of an entirely different discussion in regards to resistances.

it can resist mindhax capable of affecting a timeline's worth of people.

The main issue being that, as Cal pointed out, this timeline contains one Earth with a limited population. And again, you can use that as a feat in of itself if it's properly sourced.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

I agree with Sol.

 

[LightinAnt]

The number of people affected is not the only measurement of Mindhax potency.

Sure it is, that and dimensional tiering. Just because you can Mindhax someone across the universe, doesn't mean you should be comparable to someone who can literally mind control entire planets

 

[Solacis]

Well alright. Guess I'll just stick to Yaldabaoth mindhaxing all sentient beings (humans and animals) on Earth, plus their Shadows in the CU, plus the Shadows of every human and animal that has ever lived.

According to this, that's... 10^29 entities all collectively mindhaxed by Yaldabaoth.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Bump, especially for that second paragraph. Seriously, show me one other game verse where the endgame stuff is applied to the pre-endgame stats. Because that's what's being argued for Joker.

 

[Solacis]

Nah, I said I've given up on that. The counterpoints are sound.

 

[SinsofMan]

I am neutral but inclinded to agree with Cal.