Kaguya should be Low 5-B

[ObberGobb]

Kaguya's AP is upscaled from Toneri (~200 exatons) and from Naruto and Sasuke's Six Paths Chibaku Tensei (~400 exatons between them, ~200 each). The upper bound of Moon level is 430 exatons, very close to the 403.41 exaton calc. Kurama Sage Mode Naruto is obviously stronger than Toneri. Six Paths Sage Mode Naruto is stronger than Kurama Sage Mode Naruto. Rinne-Sharingan Juubidara is significantly stronger than Six Paths Sage Mode Naruto, and Kaguya is incomparably stronger than Rinne-Sharingan Juubidara.

We know that Kaguya is incomparably stronger than Juubidara because Sasuke says her chakra is "far greater than Madara's", and that he "can't believe such a person existed". Remember that Sasuke has met Hagoromo before, so not only does this mean Kaguya is significantly stronger than Madara, but Hagoromo as well. Since Hagoromo gave both Naruto and Sasuke half of his power (and still had some left over), he should be roughly equal to both of them put together. Sasuke is a reliable source on this because he can both sense and literally see chakra.

Now, the scaling chain is this:

Toneri < Kurama Sage Mode Naruto < Six Paths Sage Mode Naruto < Rinne-Sharingan Juubidara < Hagoromo << Kaguya

So, to sum this up, Kaguya should be put at Low 5-B because she is 5 steps above Toneri on the scaling chain, and many of those steps are huge. The difference between Toneri's calc and the top of 5-C is 2.17x. Just by basic implications in the series, and the long scaling chain that put her several huge steps above Toneri, I think it is very clear she is more than 2.17x more powerful than him. Especially since Kaguya is implied to be superior to Naruto and Sasuke combined (They were not able to defeat her normally and had to seal her with the help of Sakura and DMS Kakashi, and like I mentioned before she is strongly implied to be far stronger than Hagoromo who should be equal to Naruto and Sasuke put together) both of whom are far stronger than Toneri on their own. Even if you don't want to use that long scaling chain, like I mentioned before Naruto and Sasuke's combined calc is 403.41 exatons. So just given how much she is superior to both of them, she should easily upscale from that into Low 5-B.

In addition, I think this should apply to Fused Momoshiki as well, because Sasuke implies that normal Momoshiki is possibly stronger than Kaguya, and Fused Momoshiki is obviously stronger than normal Momoshiki.

 

[DarlingAurora]

I agree.
Neutral on Momoshiki.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Do we backscale The Last Naruto's feats to Shippuden?

 

[Thelastmlg]

I think we do, wasn't war SPSM naruto strobger than the last naruto for some reason?

 

[OneBleachHurricane]

Do we backscale The Last Naruto's feats to Shippuden?

I don't know but Kaguya doesn't even upscale nor scale to Toneri, she's scales above Ghost Hagoromo, or currently going by the profiles Juubi Jinchuriki Hagoromo, who's 403 Exatons.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

I don't know but Kaguya doesn't even upscale nor scale to Toneri, she's scales above Ghost Hagoromo, or currently going by the profiles Juubi Jinchuriki Hagoromo, who's 403 Exatons.

If Kaguya upscales 403 exa from Hag and Low 5-B is 430 exa, I see nothing wrong with an upscale. I wanna say generally if they're within 15% of the next tier and upscaling we allow it. She did highkey dooky on Team 7 and Hag + Hamura only beat her with sealing.

 

[The_Alxhemist]

Iirc Toneri said something about him being close to Hamura after he absorbed some of Naruto's chakra.

The upscale looks fine to me

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

You're right, he called the power to move the moon (which gives him his 5-C rating) the power of Hamura.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

Rinne-Sharingan Juubidara is significantly stronger than Six Paths Sage Mode Naruto,

Gonna Need a Citation on that.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

Momoshiki is also a big no, not only was he humiliated by a weakened and fatigued Naruto but his strongest Golem form was Obliterated casually by the Low 5-B character that everyone is scaling to, this creates an Icestuous circular scaling chain that lets characters significantly upscale above characters who one-shot them in their most powerful forms.

​

 

[Teezar]

I agree.
Neutral on Momoshiki.

Good to have you back.
I agree with the OP.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

Why is it always the bloody aliens that everyone is trying to revise every other day? Why does nobody ever try to fix the rest of the verse, even though it's far more pressing and needed? I mean I know the answer, but sheeeeeeeesh! Y'all are having ME sound like Tempest ranting about the fandom, which is an accomplishment lol.

Kaguya's AP is upscaled from Toneri (~200 exatons) and from Naruto and Sasuke's Six Paths Chibaku Tensei (~400 exatons between them, ~200 each). The upper bound of Moon level is 430 exatons, very close to the 403.41 exaton calc.

Yeah, sure.

Kurama Sage Mode Naruto is obviously stronger than Toneri. Six Paths Sage Mode Naruto is stronger than Kurama Sage Mode Naruto.

Kurama Sage Mode Naruto was mostly fighting on par with Toneri, he wasn't far superior or anything. He only one-shot Toneri when using his absolute full power in that punch.
You could argue he would've been stronger had he not released Kurama to fight Hamura's Golem, but I don't think it would've made a massive difference. Regardless, he's more or less just >= Toneri.

The main thing though is that SPSM War Arc Naruto absolutely does NOT upscale himself from the Last.
Naruto in the War was not stronger than Hagoromo, that much is a fact. Less than half of Hagoromo's chakra is largely responsible for his power after all.
Since TCM Toneri is relative to Hamura, who's relative to Hagoromo, he would upscale Naruto from the War Arc. It should go like this;
Kaguya > Hagoromo ~ Hamura ~ Toneri ~ BSM Naruto (the Last) > War Arc Naruto (vaguely around 50% of Hagoromo's power)

Rinne-Sharingan Juubidara is significantly stronger than Six Paths Sage Mode Naruto

Yeah, big no. Naruto's SHADOW CLONES were matching Madara's limbo clones (who are identical to the original). You can argue Madara was casual and only trying to launch the IT, but that only warrants him simply scaling to Naruto, not significantly above him.

, and Kaguya is incomparably stronger than Rinne-Sharingan Juubidara.

We know that Kaguya is incomparably stronger than Juubidara because Sasuke says her chakra is "far greater than Madara's", and that he "can't believe such a person existed". Remember that Sasuke has met Hagoromo before, so not only does this mean Kaguya is significantly stronger than Madara, but Hagoromo as well. Since Hagoromo gave both Naruto and Sasuke half of his power (and still had some left over), he should be roughly equal to both of them put together. Sasuke is a reliable source on this because he can both sense and literally see chakra.

Yeah, Kaguya is stronger than Hagoromo and Madara. No issues there. So I guess the scaling chain goes;
Kaguya > BSM Naruto >= Hagoromo ~ Hamura ~ Toneri > War Arc Naruto ~ Madara (roughly around 50% of Hagoromo's power)

Now, the scaling chain is this:

Toneri < Kurama Sage Mode Naruto < Six Paths Sage Mode Naruto < Rinne-Sharingan Juubidara < Hagoromo << Kaguya

No offense, but I like mine better.

So, to sum this up, Kaguya should be put at Low 5-B because she is 5 steps above Toneri on the scaling chain, and many of those steps are huge.

No, not at all. She's one unquantifiable step above him.

The difference between Toneri's calc and the top of 5-C is 2.17x. Just by basic implications in the series, and the long scaling chain that put her several huge steps above Toneri, I think it is very clear she is more than 2.17x more powerful than him.

Nope.

Especially since Kaguya is implied to be superior to Naruto and Sasuke combined (They were not able to defeat her normally and had to seal her with the help of Sakura and DMS Kakashi, and like I mentioned before she is strongly implied to be far stronger than Hagoromo who should be equal to Naruto and Sasuke put together) both of whom are far stronger than Toneri on their own.

Nope.

Even if you don't want to use that long scaling chain, like I mentioned before Naruto and Sasuke's combined calc is 403.41 exatons. So just given how much she is superior to both of them, she should easily upscale from that into Low 5-B.

Being significantly superior to two 5-Cs individually doesn't make you Low 5-B. You can easily achieve that by being 5-C+. Naruto and Sasuke are 200 exatons individually, give or take. Kaguya scales above Hagoromo's 400 exatons, but that's as far as it goes. No reason to upscale her.

In addition, I think this should apply to Fused Momoshiki as well, because Sasuke implies that normal Momoshiki is possibly stronger than Kaguya, and Fused Momoshiki is obviously stronger than normal Momoshiki.

Yeah, no. Absolutely not.
Momoshiki doesn't scale to Kaguya.

Sorry if I sounded rude, but we've been through this dance before, so to speak...

 

[Fastestthingalive50]

Agree with the upgrade.

 

[Damage3245]

I'm not really seeing any strong reason here for Kaguya to be getting an upscale rather than just freaking scaling to the characters she literally fights.

Why the Hell is everything always about upscaling now?

What happened to plain old good scaling?

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

I'm not really seeing any strong reason here for Kaguya to be getting an upscale rather than just freaking scaling to the characters she literally fights.

Why the Hell is everything always about upscaling now?

What happened to plain old good scaling?

There's been a weird obsession with getting the characters to Low 5-B in any way shape or form lately for whatever reason lol. I don't really get it...

 

[PrinceofPein]

What happened to plain old good scaling?

I left the window open, it left

 

[Lightning_XXI]

I agree with UchihaSlayer's points

Naruto God Tiers have the "potential" to surpass their current 5-C tier, which I guess invites people to look for ways of having some upgrades, and that’s absolutely fine, but upscaling is something that should be used more carefully

 

[Theendzero13]

Why would kaguya upscales from SPCT if the whole point of SPCT is being strong enough to seal her?

 

[theultimate5105]

Why would kaguya upscales from SPCT if the whole point of SPCT is being strong enough to seal her?

Its not just strong enough
It literally nulls her powers then splits body and the jubbi which then was split into nine seperate entities

 

[Theendzero13]

Its not just strong enough
It literally nulls her powers then splits body and the jubbi which then was split into nine seperate entities

Them it seals her via hax?

If that is the case you does not need upscale because she should scale above prime six paths chibaku tensei

 

[theultimate5105]

Them it seals her via hax?

If that is the case you does not need upscale because she should scale above prime six paths chibaku tensei

Yeah it only seals her via hax the AP part is of moving the seal into space
Or else Kaguya would just Dimensional travel out of it

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

Yeah it only seals her via hax the AP part is of moving the seal into space
Or else Kaguya would just Dimensional travel out of it

Or simply break out like Momoshiki and Kurama did.

 

[EmilioRory10]

Well at least the post isn't about upscaling her from Isshiki

 

[KingTempest]

Y'all are having ME sound like Tempest ranting about the fandom, which is an accomplishment lol.

Get mad
Now you know how I feel

 

[ObberGobb]

I'm not really seeing any strong reason here for Kaguya to be getting an upscale rather than just freaking scaling to the characters she literally fights.

Why the Hell is everything always about upscaling now?

What happened to plain old good scaling?

Because she clearly doesn't just normally scale. Sasuke is shocked that its even possible for someone as powerful as her to even exist, which wouldn't make any sense if she was only a few percent stronger than Hagoromo.

 

[ObberGobb]

Why is it always the bloody aliens that everyone is trying to revise every other day? Why does nobody ever try to fix the rest of the verse, even though it's far more pressing and needed? I mean I know the answer, but sheeeeeeeesh! Y'all are having ME sound like Tempest ranting about the fandom, which is an accomplishment lol.

Yeah, sure.

Kurama Sage Mode Naruto was mostly fighting on par with Toneri, he wasn't far superior or anything. He only one-shot Toneri when using his absolute full power in that punch.
You could argue he would've been stronger had he not released Kurama to fight Hamura's Golem, but I don't think it would've made a massive difference. Regardless, he's more or less just >= Toneri.

The main thing though is that SPSM War Arc Naruto absolutely does NOT upscale himself from the Last.
Naruto in the War was not stronger than Hagoromo, that much is a fact. Less than half of Hagoromo's chakra is largely responsible for his power after all.
Since TCM Toneri is relative to Hamura, who's relative to Hagoromo, he would upscale Naruto from the War Arc. It should go like this;
Kaguya > Hagoromo ~ Hamura ~ Toneri ~ BSM Naruto (the Last) > War Arc Naruto (vaguely around 50% of Hagoromo's power)

Yeah, big no. Naruto's SHADOW CLONES were matching Madara's limbo clones (who are identical to the original). You can argue Madara was casual and only trying to launch the IT, but that only warrants him simply scaling to Naruto, not significantly above him.

Yeah, Kaguya is stronger than Hagoromo and Madara. No issues there. So I guess the scaling chain goes;
Kaguya > BSM Naruto >= Hagoromo ~ Hamura ~ Toneri > War Arc Naruto ~ Madara (roughly around 50% of Hagoromo's power)

No offense, but I like mine better.

No, not at all. She's one unquantifiable step above him.

Nope.

Nope.

Being significantly superior to two 5-Cs individually doesn't make you Low 5-B. You can easily achieve that by being 5-C+. Naruto and Sasuke are 200 exatons individually, give or take. Kaguya scales above Hagoromo's 400 exatons, but that's as far as it goes. No reason to upscale her.

Yeah, no. Absolutely not.
Momoshiki doesn't scale to Kaguya.

Sorry if I sounded rude, but we've been through this dance before, so to speak...

I disagree about your scaling chain.
1. Toneri never met Hamura so he isn't exactly a reliable source. Its the same as people claiming Juubito is comparable to Hagoromo when clearly that isn't the case.
2. Even if we took Toneri at his word, Hamura scales near base Hagoromo. Hagoromo got significantly stronger when he became Ten Tails Jinchuriki, and its this far stronger Hagoromo who gave Naruto and Sasuke their chakra.
3. Hagoromo is 400 exatons, and Sasuke made it clear that Kaguya is incomparably stronger than him. That should be enough to account for the 7% difference that would push Kaguya into the lower bounds of Low 5-B.

I'm fine about Momoshiki. I disagree but I don't really care about him that much.

 

[Nierre]

Sasuke made it clear that Kaguya is incomparably stronger than him. That should be enough to account for the 7% difference that would push Kaguya into the lower bounds of Low 5-B.

That's... still a pretty big leap, no?

Upscaling is usually lower in percentages but 7%..?

 

[ObberGobb]

I don't really think so. If he had just said that she was the strongest he had ever seen I don't think it would be enough, but being shocked at her existence to me implies a big enough jump. Of course, Kaguya would be pretty low in the tier, but she would be in the tier nonetheless.

 

[Damage3245]

I don't see anything conclusive that would put Kaguya in that tier.

 

[Nierre]

Meh..

I'm neutral

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

I disagree about your scaling chain.
1. Toneri never met Hamura so he isn't exactly a reliable source. Its the same as people claiming Juubito is comparable to Hagoromo when clearly that isn't the case.

Except these are entirely different cases. Toneri specifically mentions the power to move the moon (which is what's responsible for the 200 exatons calc in case you didn't know) is that of Hamura's. That's way more specific than Obito's vague statement that could very well be referring to him having the same abilities as Hagoromo, which was already alluded to in the manga.

And btw, without Hamura as the link between the Last and Part II, the Part II God tiers have absolutely no business scaling to Toneri's calc in any way. So assuming I'm wrong about this, it wouldn't actually result in an upgrade, but a massive downgrade lol. (Or at least full reliance on the SPCT calc for Part II God tiers)

2. Even if we took Toneri at his word, Hamura scales near base Hagoromo. Hagoromo got significantly stronger when he became Ten Tails Jinchuriki, and its this far stronger Hagoromo who gave Naruto and Sasuke their chakra.

The hell? No lol. Juubi Jinchūriki Hagoromo is NOT the one who gave Naruto and Sasuke their power given the fact that he's not the Jinchūriki of the Ten-Tails anymore.......

3. Hagoromo is 400 exatons, and Sasuke made it clear that Kaguya is incomparably stronger than him.

No, Sasuke only said that she's far above Madara, not Hagoromo.

That should be enough to account for the 7% difference that would push Kaguya into the lower bounds of Low 5-B.

No, this is actually not how it works. 7% is too big of a gap for upscaling.

I'm fine about Momoshiki. I disagree but I don't really care about him that much.

Nobody cares about that fodder

 

[Lightning_XXI]

That's... still a pretty big leap, no?

Upscaling is usually lower in percentages but 7%..?

I don't support the upscaling, at all but, with that said, there are currently accepted bigger jumps in power, I'll give you one example

OPM's Orochi scales to 330 Exatons

OPM's Psykos scales higher than him

OPM's Tatsumaki scales higher than her and already receives a Likely Low 5-B rating, as you can see, the jump is way bigger

Another (bigger) example inside the OPM verse is Lord Boros

His released form scales higher than Orochi's 330 Exaton calc

His Meteoric Burst scales higher than his released form, and that's already enough to upscale him to Likely Low 5-B aswell

Again, I don't support upscaling, but if we take these examples as accurate, then yes, I do see Kaguya having enough material to a Likely Low 5-B but only by "playing the current accepted upscaling game"

 

[Nierre]

"playing the current accepted upscaling game"

That's the issue.

 

[KingTempest]

I don't support the upscaling, at all but, with that said, there are currently accepted bigger jumps in power, I'll give you one example

OPM's Orochi scales to 330 Exatons

OPM's Psykos scales higher than him

OPM's Tatsumaki scales higher than her and already receives a Likely Low 5-B rating, as you can see, the jump is way bigger

Another (bigger) example inside the OPM verse is Lord Boros

His released form scales higher than Orochi's 330 Exaton calc

His Meteoric Burst scales higher than his released form, and that's already enough to upscale him to Likely Low 5-B aswell

Again, I don't support upscaling, but if we take these examples as accurate, then yes, I do see Kaguya having enough material to a Likely Low 5-B but only by "playing the current accepted upscaling game"

Nah, because the argument for those were ridiculous.

Saying "they got it so this should get it" is basically saying "downgrade these guys".

They're the exception, not the rule

 

[Lightning_XXI]

That's the issue.

Yes, that's my point

Nah, because the argument for those were ridiculous.

Saying "they got it so this should get it" is basically saying "downgrade these guys".

They're the exception, not the rule

That wasn't my point

 

[KingTempest]

That wasn't my point

You're saying
"I don't agree with upscaling, but via the 'upscaling game' and the fact that these people could upscale off of this difference, then she could too".


I don't even see reason to upscale

 

[Nierre]

You're going to need far more evidence to upscale other than Sasuke stating that Kaguya was "incomparably stronger" than he was. All this proves is that she's unquantifiably higher than what she's currently rated, which we already know.

 

[Lightning_XXI]

You're saying
"I don't agree with upscaling, but via the 'upscaling game' and the fact that these people could upscale off of this difference, then she could too".


I don't even see reason to upscale

That was the example, the point is that we should take a second look at how upscaling will work, because there is a clear difference in its applications in the wiki, OPM was just one of many

 

[Damage3245]

Again, I don't support upscaling, but if we take these examples as accurate, then yes, I do see Kaguya having enough material to a Likely Low 5-B but only by "playing the current accepted upscaling game"

Sounds like these existing cases should be looked at more strictly to me.

 

[PrinceofPein]

Someone should make a CRT to make upscaling more strict and accurate as there should be standards met before upscaling can happen