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Kirby’s High 6-A key

The_real_cal_howard

The_real_cal_howard

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VS Battles
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Why does this even exist?

Kirby’s not a shonen character separated into eras. He doesn’t “get exponentially stronger” through training, if he even does that (he doesn’t). The idea that Kirby just magically gets stronger like he’s Goku is pure headcanon and this key should be deleted. Honestly, Kirby shouldn’t have era keys to begin with but I’m not gonna deal with that.
Needless to say this applies to Dedede and MK as well.
 
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btw its less of a high 6-A key and more of a 5-A key since we've like 2 5-A calcs and one 5-C to 5-B calc accepted
 
I agree with this, Kirby is more so a Type II protagonist (Which is the Fluctuative/Situational protagonist) who while having some note worthy inconsistencies, is simply strong enough to deal with the tasks at hand. And while there's no "Variable tier lore" other than things like game mechanics or writers just trying to do their job and sometimes forgets how strong various threats were. But he's just the hero who's as strong as he needs to be and should scale from feats that have a balance between demonstration and consistency but is still much stronger than the lower-mid tier enemies. He doesn't quite reach the Type IV (Which is the dominant God Tier protagonist) given he still struggles with higher up foes but isn't overwhelmingly far behind reaching that point. But he's most certainty not the Type III (Being the progressive protagonist who's arc revolves around jumping tiers with each chapter progression).

But I agree with nuking his low end High 6-A key at least.
 
The_real_cal_howard said:
Yeah don’t worry, Efi’s not closing any of my threads. I’ve got more than enough pull to combat that if he does.
Click to expand...
well it wasn't my thread it was his, i don't want to paint him as this corrupt tyrant, but he did close it before we could finish discussing it because he deemed it irrelevant despite it being important.
 
additionally i think we do need to keep the jump between pre and post star allies kirbo. Thing is there is evidence for him being more powerful there. Firstly void termina with his 3-C feat, him creating 4 master crowns for one attack in his base form when RtDL Kirby had to use his full power to fight one guy with that crown. the fact that the jamba hearts can boost someone hard enough to fight multiple characters and then fusing it all into Void also adds to that.

Meta Knight also trains a lot and we do see progression as he managed to overpower Fecto Forgos' mind hax, something the untrained Dedede failed to do.

Bandana dee definitely needs keys since he constantly trains and went from getting 3-shotted/1-shot-eaten by kirby whilst fighting by waddling around miserably to a hero who fights universe/multiverse-endangering atrocities on the same level as MK and Kirby
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
I agree with this, Kirby is more so a Type II protagonist (Which is the Fluctuative/Situational protagonist) who while having some note worthy inconsistencies, is simply strong enough to deal with the tasks at hand. And while there's no "Variable tier lore" other than things like game mechanics or writers just trying to do their job and sometimes forgets how strong various threats were. But he's just the hero who's as strong as he needs to be and should scale from feats that have a balance between demonstration and consistency but is still much stronger than the lower-mid tier enemies. He doesn't quite reach the Type IV (Which is the dominant God Tier protagonist) given he still struggles with higher up foes but isn't overwhelmingly far behind reaching that point. But he's most certainty not the Type III (Being the progressive protagonist who's arc revolves around jumping tiers with each chapter progression).
Click to expand...
Since when there were protagonist types?
 
Well, one thing for sure is that they don't appear in TV Tropes.
In any case, I also agree on the High 6-A key being rather unecessary.
 
I also find it weird that King Dedede and Meta Knight lack High 6-A keys, seeing how they've existed around that time and have fought Kirby in the very beginning of the series... If we were to go off of that logic, anyway.
 
Meta Knight's existence kind of disproves 6-A kirby imo, Meta Knight was always as strong as he was, he does get stronger, but not by a billion magnitudes, and he even has past with cosmic threats as well, indicating that yes, he always was. And if Kirby could match Meta even in the early games, well, that means Kirby was always that strong too.

Also DDD sure as **** doesn't train or have any indication of substantial growth.
 
Kazuma_kuwabara said:
DDD trained after his first fight with God, I mean ,Kirbo, later? I don´t see it
Click to expand...
When was that? Either way, every instance before that, refer to what I said, it's definitely not the norm and unless that training just so happened between one of kirby's large jumps, it's inconsistent if not as large as profiles would imply.
 
I agree to nuking the High 6-A key although as someone said we got a 5-C to 5-B calc that was accepted and 2 other accepted 5-A calcs
 
We already have grows of power across the series and ability to grow in stats via positive energy written in blogs every Kirby supporter should be aware of, I will wait for direct acknowledgments for those reasons being each replied with "I don't care that exists".
Arceus0x said:
you're gonna have to fight eficiente over that. Last time i tried the thread got closed.
Click to expand...
You mean when you derailed a thread with that and I gave you the reasons needed to say no to it, then later closed my thread as its topics were done. Not the first time you say whatever on something I do, it's pretty annoying.
EMagoIorSouI said:
I also find it weird that King Dedede and Meta Knight lack High 6-A keys, seeing how they've existed around that time and have fought Kirby in the very beginning of the series... If we were to go off of that logic, anyway.
Click to expand...
They only lack that because it was too much work to make them separate their abilities.
Chariot190 said:
Meta Knight's existence kind of disproves 6-A kirby imo, Meta Knight was always as strong as he was, he does get stronger, but not by a billion magnitudes, and he even has past with cosmic threats as well, indicating that yes, he always was. And if Kirby could match Meta even in the early games, well, that means Kirby was always that strong too.
Click to expand...
First of all, let's not get technical on the degrees in which they grow stronger. MK had superhuman development to grow stronger since before it became a common power, it's always stated (In game, the Jap. site of the game, 20th encyclopedia book) that what happened in Meta Knightmare Ultra was to make him stronger, that training making him defeat the strongest warrior in the galaxy. Otherwise the guy is always obsessed with training and becoming stronger.
Chariot190 said:
Also DDD sure as **** doesn't train or have any indication of substantial growth.
Click to expand...
He's stated twice to have trained after his first with Kirby to be able to flight, but the real reason for this grows in power are not the characters training, but 1. the enemies being proven to be far more powerful than former final enemies fought before 2. some anti-feats and 3. In part also because Kirby's a character meant to be weird and mysterious, being able to do things that other characters can't do naturally, which is then shared on and normalized on fellow characters in a way that makes harder the need to make everything mysterious (source). As in, "why does he grow stronger? He's Kirby that's why", other characters mostly lack the odd abilities Kirby has (especially at the time of that interview, which gave an idea of how the series works anyway), but power wise they always had goofy scaling becoming the norm.
 
Eficiente said:
You mean when you derailed a thread with that and I gave you the reasons needed to say no to it, then later closed my thread as its topics were done. Not the first time you say whatever on something I do, it's pretty annoying.
Click to expand...
We were disagreeing with a part of the thread. You proposed the addition of the H6A key to the profile, We disliked its tiering and disagreed and tried to explain why. It's all 100% related it's just that you didn't wanna bother answering and called it "derailing" when derailing is specifically talking about an unrelated matter, which isn't true in this case as we were talking about why the h6a key should be 3-C
 
Arceus0x said:
We were disagreeing with a part of the thread. You proposed the addition of the H6A key to the profile, We disliked its tiering and disagreed and tried to explain why. It's all 100% related it's just that you didn't wanna bother answering and called it "derailing" when derailing is specifically talking about an unrelated matter, which isn't true in this case as we were talking about why the h6a key should be 3-C
Click to expand...
That's not how I remember it and I looked it up to be sure, I'm gonna quote myself from there "Please stop commenting here, if you guys want to keep going over this sub-topic then make a private conversation between whoever cares and aims for it and when you're done come back here with the points concise and well put together, as it should have been done since before anyway." but then you got agitated and said this and later this. So yes I closed the thread but because the way you were handling it was bad enough for that to be appropriate, to say the least.

Everything I could possibly argue here are the same "arguments [that] make no freaking sense neither grammatically nor logically" and with the evidence I had already listed despite your claim of my lack of scans, all I need to do is do the work I already did but word it in another way maybe and be me the one making the concise and well put together points for Kirby & co. not growing in power, then argue back to my own arguments to please you all. I foresaw from that that I will be correct and the manner deemed basic.

The new things said in the OP first, which I deemed unsubstantiated and maybe just to start a debate, but that may need to be explained as it simply developed into "I believe this and I'm right, right?". If the reasons of a thread are in its comments and yet to be made and not in the op then gives people.
The_real_cal_howard said:
Why does this even exist?
Click to expand...
Standard assumption when feats happen in a series+anti-feats+reasons for that being the case.
The_real_cal_howard said:
Kirby’s not a shonen character separated into eras.
Click to expand...
He doesn't need to be.
The_real_cal_howard said:
He doesn’t “get exponentially stronger” through training, if he even does that (he doesn’t).
Click to expand...
Not much, but he's from day 1 a warrior and often referred to as such regardless of living in a world of peace, he's a "veteran of battle" with "martial might" who earned being commonly called "Pink Demon" because of how he beats out consecutive enemies in fights where there is an argument to be made that "each enemy is more powerful than the last", said enemies being at some point even to him in power. He doesn't train much in times of peace, but many games aren't that and Kirby works out through them, please let that sink in. (Also he does train Copy Abilities for combat and DDD trained him to use the hammer ability like him).

Not to mention another thing in his profile
The existence of this recontextualizes the series as 2 trees of all people could use it. Call me conservative for putting the ability Post-Star Allies, but something roughly like it could have always been going on as the series given the themes of the games (and powerscaling).

Kirbys from other canon universes also went from being one-shot by Kirby to stronger than Kirby and some heroes from needing team work to beat mundane bosses to being the new strongest warriors in the galaxy after beating the former one after 2 games, if still needing team work for that.
The_real_cal_howard said:
The idea that Kirby just magically gets stronger like he’s Goku is pure headcanon and this key should be deleted.
Click to expand...
I have been you disagreeing with this concept before but characters can be written stronger over decently large amounts of time with the reason being little more than anti-feats and hierarchies in the foes they beat, you don't need to be Goku, the guy went step by step from Wall to Universal, or a shonen character.
 
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DarkDragonMedeus said:
I agree with this, Kirby is more so a Type II protagonist (Which is the Fluctuative/Situational protagonist) who while having some note worthy inconsistencies, is simply strong enough to deal with the tasks at hand. And while there's no "Variable tier lore" other than things like game mechanics or writers just trying to do their job and sometimes forgets how strong various threats were. But he's just the hero who's as strong as he needs to be and should scale from feats that have a balance between demonstration and consistency but is still much stronger than the lower-mid tier enemies. He doesn't quite reach the Type IV (Which is the dominant God Tier protagonist) given he still struggles with higher up foes but isn't overwhelmingly far behind reaching that point. But he's most certainty not the Type III (Being the progressive protagonist who's arc revolves around jumping tiers with each chapter progression).

But I agree with nuking his low end High 6-A key at least.
Click to expand...
Where do all these "protagonist types" come from? Can you put those in a blog article, at least, so that people know exactly what you're talking about?
 
Malomtek said:
Where do all these "protagonist types" come from? Can you put those in a blog article, at least, so that people know exactly what you're talking about?
Click to expand...
I plan to eventually, and I explained it better in both staff DM's shared parts of it on Discord, but I did lay out some brief summaries on this post. But that's still derailing the thread.

Anyway, I'm waiting on someone like Cal Howard to collect his counter arguments as I'm not the best informed about Kirby.
 
Eficiente said:
That's not how I remember it and I looked it up to be sure, I'm gonna quote myself from there "Please stop commenting here, if you guys want to keep going over this sub-topic then make a private conversation between whoever cares and aims for it and when you're done come back here with the points concise and well put together, as it should have been done since before anyway." but then you got agitated and said this and later this. So yes I closed the thread but because the way you were handling it was bad enough for that to be appropriate, to say the least.

Everything I could possibly argue here are the same "arguments [that] make no freaking sense neither grammatically nor logically" and with the evidence I had already listed despite your claim of my lack of scans, all I need to do is do the work I already did but word it in another way maybe and be me the one making the concise and well put together points for Kirby & co. not growing in power, then argue back to my own arguments to please you all. I foresaw from that that I will be correct and the manner deemed basic.

The new things said in the OP first, which I deemed unsubstantiated and maybe just to start a debate, but that may need to be explained as it simply developed into "I believe this and I'm right, right?". If the reasons of a thread are in its comments and yet to be made and not in the op then gives people.

Standard assumption when feats happen in a series+anti-feats+reasons for that being the case.

He doesn't need to be.

Not much, but he's from day 1 a warrior and often referred to as such regardless of living in a world of peace, he's a "veteran of battle" with "martial might" who earned being commonly called "Pink Demon" because of how he beats out consecutive enemies in fights where there is an argument to be made that "each enemy is more powerful than the last", said enemies being at some point even to him in power. He doesn't train much in times of peace, but many games aren't that and Kirby works out through them, please let that sink in. (Also he does train Copy Abilities for combat and DDD trained him to use the hammer ability like him).

Not to mention another thing in his profile
The existence of this recontextualizes the series as 2 trees of all people could use it. Call me conservative for putting the ability Post-Star Allies, but something roughly like it could have always been going on as the series given the themes of the games (and powerscaling).

Kirbys from other canon universes also went from being one-shot by Kirby to stronger than Kirby and some heroes from needing team work to beat mundane bosses to being the new strongest warriors in the galaxy after beating the former one after 2 games, if still needing team work for that.

I have been you disagreeing with this concept before but characters can be written stronger over decently large amounts of time with the reason being little more than anti-feats and hierarchies in the foes they beat, you don't need to be Goku, the guy went step by step from Wall to Universal, or a shonen character.
Click to expand...
Maybe add accelerated development
 
Well, I had decided it would be best not to give that based on verses where main characters jump from tier to tier every so ofte while other characters keep up by somehow growing as strong as others off-screen unevenly. Not until the page may be better elaborated on that scenery.

MK should have it tho.
 
Ngl after Eficiente's reasoning above I'm in favor of keeping the extra key, especially with the incoming 5-A feats that are gonna bump up pre Canvas Curse Kirby.
 
I hope that includes knowing the hierarchy in Dark Matter beings and how Kirby did not scale to Nova by the time of Super Star.

@The_real_cal_howard Are you still interested in this thread?
 
Yeah but uh…idk, interest isn’t what it used to be. Like I’m still not convinced but it’s not really…worth it, ya know?
 
I understand that. Well, if you know that at least the possibility exists that Kirby has been growing in power over time, then that's something. I guess this thread shouldn't have anyone bump'ing while it remains open.
 
As I said before, the High 6-A isn't going to even last much longer due to a 5-C feat and 2 5-A calcs.
 
I don't blame you Cal, and I heard you got counter arguments. But take as long as you need, I have faith in you.

Although Eficiente does bring up some good points such as the "Positive Energy" thing.
 
So if I understand we are assuming a several thousand times power increase because a statement referring to an event currently accepted to be referring to them from near a thousand years in the future that has little evidence suggesting a major change in strength.
 
Eficiente said:
Not to mention another thing in his profile
The existence of this recontextualizes the series as 2 trees of all people could use it. Call me conservative for putting the ability Post-Star Allies, but something roughly like it could have always been going on as the series given the themes of the games (and powerscaling).
Click to expand...
Eficiente said:
Not much, but he's from day 1 a warrior and often referred to as such regardless of living in a world of peace, he's a "veteran of battle" with "martial might" who earned being commonly called "Pink Demon" because of how he beats out consecutive enemies in fights where there is an argument to be made that "each enemy is more powerful than the last", said enemies being at some point even to him in power. He doesn't train much in times of peace, but many games aren't that and Kirby works out through them, please let that sink in. (Also he does train Copy Abilities for combat and DDD trained him to use the hammer ability like him).
Click to expand...
None of that proves major growth the "each enemy is more powerful than the last" which cup Kirby in two cups Kirby beat all but one already the other he already beat everyone and that could be the waddle Dee exaggerating.
 
Well, that's just a comment that states it, it is already somewhat intuitive on its own as in arenas you first fight random boss while the last ones are in a set orden while respecting the placements of power they had in their other appearances.

As I implied before, other reasons can be found in the blogs we link;
  • Kirby in Super Star had no reason to scale to Nova, this being very unlikely: 1. Kirby needed to go and do a somewhat long task to wish Nova something he isn't trying himself, with the sun and moon being sentient beings who can be talked to and modern Kirby being able to put them in their place if he wanted to. This implies Kirby lacked the power to stop the sun and moon from fighting, hence he needed Nova, who had the power. 2. Marx was going to use Nova's power to rule Popstar, which is granted in an unknown way that never came to be. 3. Kirby way to stop Nova has him using a Final Weapon, take advantage of Nova fighting the sun & moon at once, and aim to attack its nucleus to make it stop functioning. This caused Nova basically brain damage from within its body. Notably, much later in Kirby's career he had no issue fighting a Nova-like machine 1v1 in a regular battle, with Kirby's attacks sending it back as if punched in the face every so often, the power from this coming from Kirby's own rather than the equipment he had and the "Nova" acknowledging that it was being overpowered. 4. By the time of Super Star Ultra, Marx having Nova's power was portrayed as the epic final battle Kirby had to face, despite how, should Kirby ALWAYS be as strong, this would only be "1 guy he already defeated+having the power of another being he already beat/scales to". Granted, being thematically underwhelming amounts to little or nothing.
  • The first time Kirby faced a lone Dark Matter it took him notable effort. Later on, he faced off against Dark Matter beings who do what their species is supposed to, defeating even their leader in a way that blows them all up. The leader of Dark Matter is intuitively stronger than some random Dark Matter who does its own life. Later on, Kirby defeated yet another leader of Dark Matter, which blew up a planet made of continent-sized Dark Matter beings, which is of course above all other Dark Matter shown before. Earlier that game Kirby was beating up Dark Matter beings as mid-bosses whereas the first one he faced was a final boss.
  • Using not even the full power of the Master Crown, which has the likely 2-C feat, Magolor was going to conquer the universe in unclear ways. Having more power than everyone comparable to an earlier Kirby is easily presumable. Magolor is able to one-shot Landia, which was the fake final boss Kirby co. faced before, and Magolor is able to use a shield Kirby & co. cannot get passed with their attacks. Then, in Magolor's second, more powerful form, he can attack Kirby & co. with Super Abilities, even tho Kirby just used Super Abilities to destroy his shield in his last form. And of course no one is a stone wall.
  • One of the late bosses in Return to Dream Land returns in Planet Robobot as a mini-boss with another name, yet vague implications of being related.
 
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