KT's Adventure Time Revisions Part 12: Escape The Citadel Revision

[KingTempest]

Part 1, Part 2, Part 3, Part 3.5, Part 4, Part 5, Part 6, Part 6.5, Part 7, Part 7.5, Part 7.9, Part 8, Part 9, Part 10, Part 11.

Simple, the Citadel Guardians have no reason to have 5-A Striking Strength. Make it unknown as they've never shown to throw a punch.
On top of that, its durability needs to be revised. It needs its Crystal Durability there too, as their crystals can hold creatures and stop their attacks, which we see with the Lich where he needed to destroy their crystal.

Durability: Large Planet level (Can take hits from cosmic criminals who have been shown to destroy planets)

Just say

Durability: Large Planet level (Can take hits from the Alien Robot that destroyed planets. Their Crystals can hold the creatures they imprisoned, including the cosmic alien robot that sliced a planet apart)

On top of that, the Lich needs a revision from the same episode. His justification is slightly weak, as although he scales to the robots, its not really showing a great reason as to why.
He says he's beyond strength. He’s a cosmic entity who is portrayed to be one of the strongest characters ever. He shouldn’t scale below them.

That could be a better reason instead of the vague reasoning on his profile.

Agree: KT, Lephyr, Mitch, ByAsura (not solid)
Disagree: Damage, Duedate, DT, DDM, US
Neutral:

 

[Damage3245]

He says he's beyond strength.

This doesn't seem like a statement for the Lich's own AP tbh; from the context of the speech:

Fall.
You are alone, Child.
There is only darkness for you, and only death for your people. These ancients are just the beginning. I will command a great and terrible army and we will sail to a billion worlds. We will sail until every light has been extinguished.
You are strong, Child, but I am beyond strength.
I am the end, and I have come for you, Finn.

What he means is that Finn may be strong, but that isn't enough to beat the Lich. For many reasons potentially considering the Lich is immortal, the Lich always returns time and time again, and the Lich has magic at his disposal that means he doesn't even have to get into a fight to beat someone, etc. He isn't saying that his own raw power surpasses everyone else's power.


Aside from that though, I agree with removing the 5-A striking strength from the Guardians and clarifying their durability rating.

 

[KingTempest]

This doesn't seem like a statement for the Lich's own AP tbh; from the context of the speech:



What he means is that Finn may be strong, but that isn't enough to beat the Lich. For many reasons potentially considering the Lich is immortal, the Lich always returns time and time again, and the Lich has magic at his disposal that means he doesn't even have to get into a fight to beat someone, etc. He isn't saying that his own raw power surpasses everyone else's power.

It can support his current rating then, as Finn eventually becomes 5-A but that wouldn’t help him beat the Lich

Aside from that though, I agree with removing the 5-A striking strength from the Guardians and clarifying their durability rating.

Thanks

 

[Damage3245]

I'll tackle the main issue I have next which is the durability rating for the Citadel Guardians. Analyzing the two proposed justifications:

Can take hits from the Alien Robot that destroyed planets

So far as I'm aware we never see this on-screen. The cone-shaped alien robot is visible in the background briefly of the episode encased in crystal but it is never shown to be among the Lich's army or engaging the Guardians in combat.

Furthermore even if we did assume that it was freed and that it did fight the Guardians, we have no reason to believe that the Guardians could take hits from it. The Guardians were being killed off in the background in their fight with the assembled Lich-controlled criminals. We'd have know way of knowing if they could take a hit from this particular alien, or if some of the Guardian casualties could be attributed to it.

Also, the Guardians don't exactly how great durability feats anyway. One of them is seemingly knocked unconscious by a train driving into the back of its head.

Their Crystals can hold the creatures they imprisoned, including the cosmic alien robot that sliced a planet apart

The Guardian's crystals scaling to the calc is also sketchy. While trapped inside crystal, we have no way of knowing the alien robot can even fire its beam. There is too much not known about it. Like how the alien robot is seemingly comparable in size to a planet in the flashback for it, but is small enough to be easily contained on the Citadel when we see it in the present. Why is this the case? Does it still retain the same level of power? Can it even activate its attacks while encased in crystal?

These are big unknowns, and we don't have good reason to say that the crystal is durable enough to tank this attack.

Plus Jake & Finn were able to smash apart the crystal holding Martin with a ball and chain attack. It's possible being on fire made the entire crystal vulnerable to attack but the majority of the crystal was untouched by the fire. It sure doesn't seem like a Large Planet level crystal currently.

 

[KingTempest]

Please tell me now before I get surprised

Does this stop people from scaling to the calculation, or no

 

[Damage3245]

Please tell me now before I get surprised

Does this stop people from scaling to the calculation, or no

As far as I understand the current scaling from what I've looked through on the profiles today, I believe it would, yeah.

 

[KingTempest]

As far as I understand the current scaling from what I've looked through on the profiles today, I believe it would, yeah.

aight

Lich scales for being implied to be stronger than the creatures, and scaling to the cosmic entities
The cosmic entities scale for being cosmic entities and being stronger than a random citadel creature

 

[Damage3245]

aight

Lich scales for being implied to be stronger than the creatures, and scaling to the cosmic entities
The cosmic entities scale for being cosmic entities and being stronger than a random citadel creature

I somewhat get the reasoning at face value, but I'm going to need scans supporting these.

 

[KingTempest]

I somewhat get the reasoning at face value, but I'm going to need scans supporting these.

Scans can't really prove so. It's really just "watch the series".

 

[KingTempest]

Stated to be the second most powerful entity in all of the universe. Can scale from there

 

[Damage3245]

Well, that's a start.

Does Hunson have any reason to be aware of the existence of the Citadel, the aliens inside, or anything like that? I read through the Encyclopedia and there was no mention of them. (Probably because the Encyclopedia came out in 2013, a year before Season 6 started) Hunson isn't exactly omniscient.

At the very least we can use it to say that the Lich is more powerful than anyone in Ooo, though this excerpt doesn't give us any reason for us to scale his physical stats.

 

[KingTempest]

Well, that's a start.

Does Hunson have any reason to be aware of the existence of the Citadel, the aliens inside, or anything like that? I read through the Encyclopedia and there was no mention of them. (Probably because the Encyclopedia came out in 2013, a year before Season 6 started) Hunson isn't exactly omniscient.

Hunson existed before the creation of the universe. I highly doubt he wouldn't know of the prison for the goons of said place. Plus he's intelligent enough to know about threats to the galaxy and such.

At the very least we can use it to say that the Lich is more powerful than anyone in Ooo, though this excerpt doesn't give us any reason for us to scale his physical stats.

Universe ≠ just ooo

 

[KingTempest]

bump

 

[Damage3245]

Sorry I haven't been more active on this. Been ill since Tuesday.

 

[KingTempest]

Get well, no rush, and take your time

 

[Damage3245]

Personally I still don't think this statement from the Encyclopedia is strong enough evidence to solidly scale the Lich to High 5-A. "Powerful" doesn't necessarily have to refer to raw Attack Potency as we use for the profiles and it wouldn't extend to the Lich's physical statistics either. Not to mention we'd still have to be making assumptions of Hunson's knowledge.

Would you be open to scaling the Lich more directly to characters that he's fought and harmed like Finn and Jake?

 

[KingTempest]

Personally I still don't think this statement from the Encyclopedia is strong enough evidence to solidly scale the Lich to High 5-A. "Powerful" doesn't necessarily have to refer to raw Attack Potency as we use for the profiles and it wouldn't extend to the Lich's physical statistics either. Not to mention we'd still have to be making assumptions of Hunson's knowledge.

You're unintentionally downplaying the knowledge of a pre universe existing being and "the source of all evil" of his knowledge about existing evil? That's rough.

The need of this having to refer to attack potency is unnecessary.
Orgalorg and the Lich scale relative to each other, and Orgalorg also scales due to being the strongest in the galaxy, and he fights purely physical. The Lich's hand alone was combatting Orgalorg level enemies in combat (Later key Finn and Fern).

We can see that the Lich being that strong via abilities only and not strength is contradicted when it's shown you can beat the Lich with nothing but martial arts and lasers like Billy.

Would you be open to scaling the Lich more directly to characters that he's fought and harmed like Finn and Jake?

Not at all because he absolutely bodies them. I don't agree with scaling cosmic beings to the fodder they've fought.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Tempest makes more sense to me here.

 

[Damage3245]

When is Orgalorg stated to be the strongest in the Galaxy?

 

[KingTempest]

 

[Damage3245]

It take it you mean the bit that says "Gunter's Black Qualities are the most exquisitely formidable in the Galaxy and include stealing change from blind blues harmonica players and hatching a floating pink kitten."

Call me pedantic but that's not a statement of power. The "Black Qualities" that Hunson then goes onto provide some examples of are acts of stealing change and hatching a kitten.

He's describing Gunter's evilness, not his overwhelming power.

 

[KingTempest]

"I met my match" it's a combination of both since he tried to soul rip him and he smacked em.

Also that shows more for his intelligence. He wasn't there when Orgalunter gave birth yet he knows about it

 

[Damage3245]

"I met my match" it's a combination of both since he tried to soul rip him and he smacked em.

The first seems like a case of Soul Manipulation Resistance, and as for just smacking him.... Seemingly not that impressive. Doesn't the fact that Season 2 Finn can harm Hunson Abadeer go against the notion of scaling Hunson Abadeer's durability to High 5-A?

I seriously can't think it'd be better to rely exclusively on arguably vague statements from the Encyclopedia rather than go off of the character's feats in the cartoon.

 

[KingTempest]

The first seems like a case of Soul Manipulation Resistance, and as for just smacking him.... Seemingly not that impressive. Doesn't the fact that Season 2 Finn can harm Hunson Abadeer go against the notion of scaling Hunson Abadeer's durability to High 5-A?

Inconsistency from Finn's end since
#1 Finn could barely scratch Marceline, who's weaker than him
#2 Abadeer is the source of energy for Finn's season 10 sword, and Season 10 Finn would violently splatter S1&2 Finn

I seriously can't think it'd be better to rely exclusively on arguably vague statements from the Encyclopedia rather than go off of the character's feats in the cartoon.

Finn doesn't scale to Abadeer

 

[Ayewale]

Hunson existed before the creation of the universe. I highly doubt he wouldn't know of the prison for the goons of said place.

The Citadel houses criminals for the entire multiverse, not just the universe Hunson Abadeer resides in. It straight up exists outside conventional fields of space (quoting the AT wiki). It's still feasible that he doesn't know of its' existence.

Stated to be the second most powerful entity in all of the universe. Can scale from there

Does power in this case refer to raw strength? I heavily doubt it because the Lich just...loses to Billy in a physical confrontation? The Lich's strength varies greatly depending on who he possesses too. This is probably referring to his magic, which has been shown to be strong enough to threaten cosmic entities on multiple occasions.

 

[KingTempest]

The Citadel houses criminals for the entire multiverse, not just the universe Hunson Abadeer resides in. It straight up exists outside conventional fields of space (quoting the AT wiki). It's still feasible that he doesn't know of its' existence.

Before there was time, before there was anything, there was nothing. And before there was nothing, there were monsters.

This is what the Lich said after he literally stretched to every universe in existence.
Abadeer is from that same place.
Abadeer existed prior to the multiverse. It still goes there.

Does power in this case refer to raw strength? I heavily doubt it because the Lich just...loses to Billy in a physical confrontation? The Lich's strength varies greatly depending on who he possesses too. This is probably referring to his magic, which has been shown to be strong enough to threaten cosmic entities on multiple occasions.

"Second most powerful evil entity". Billy not evil.

 

[Damage3245]

This is what the Lich said after he literally stretched to every universe in existence.
Abadeer is from that same place.
Abadeer existed prior to the multiverse. It still goes there.

That still doesn't make Hunson omniscient. We don't even know if he knew of Orgalorg's existence before he arrived in Ooo and personally met Gunther.

The statements given by Hunson are not the highest and most objective form of scaling.

Inconsistency from Finn's end since
#1 Finn could barely scratch Marceline, who's weaker than him
#2 Abadeer is the source of energy for Finn's season 10 sword, and Season 10 Finn would violently splatter S1&2 Finn

Finn could still harm Marceline IIRC. Will look back at the episodes.

And Hunson being the source of energy doesn't seem relevant for his durability.


Let's drill down to the core issue;

What would you write as the AP, Striking Strength and Durability justifications of the Lich, Hunson Abadeer, and Orgalorg?

 

[KingTempest]

That still doesn't make Hunson omniscient. We don't even know if he knew of Orgalorg's existence before he arrived in Ooo and personally met Gunther.

The statements given by Hunson are not the highest and most objective form of scaling.

They're better than scaling beginning of series Finn to rulers of the universe

Finn could still harm Marceline IIRC. Will look back at the episodes.

Stronger versions of Finn were weaker than Human Marceline. Please don't try to scale

And Hunson being the source of energy doesn't seem relevant for his durability.

Seems very relevant when he's enhanced by that same energy

Let's drill down to the core issue;

What would you write as the AP, Striking Strength and Durability justifications of the Lich, Hunson Abadeer, and Orgalorg?

What is there as of right now.

Add that the Lich hand could hurt later series Finn who scales to Orgalorg

 

[Damage3245]

What is there as of right now.

Add that the Lich hand could hurt later series Finn who scales to Orgalorg

This reminds me that it'd probably be a good idea for the Lich to have two keys on his profile; one for his main Universe self and another for him from Farmworld, as the two do have different abilities but right now they're combined together into one version.

I'll putting together some notes on the scaling now.

The biggest issue is that a lot of characters currently have zero justifications for their Striking Strength.

 

[KingTempest]

This reminds me that it'd probably be a good idea for the Lich to have two keys on his profile; one for his main Universe self and another for him from Farmworld, as the two do have different abilities but right now they're combined together into one version.

They’re the same entity, just one is in Jake’s body, before you give main uni unknown stats and the other all the feats

The biggest issue is that a lot of characters currently have zero justifications for their Striking Strength.

Cause most of them fight physically

 

[Damage3245]

They’re the same entity, just one is in Jake’s body, before you give main uni unknown stats and the other all the feats

I wasn't going to suggest Unknown stats either way. Unknown ratings are the last resort possible for characters.

Cause most of them fight physically

Sure - but if any of them have any consistent physical anti-feats, shouldn't we be relying on more than a single statement for their ratings?

 

[KingTempest]

I wasn't going to suggest Unknown stats either way. Unknown ratings are the last resort possible for characters.

Lemme rephrase.
The Lich throughout the multiverse is the same creature with the same level of power. He in different keys wouldn’t vary in strength

Sure - but if any of them have any consistent physical anti-feats, shouldn't we be relying on more than a single statement for their ratings?

Weren’t you the one who coined the term consistent outliers?

Finn’s weaker than human Marceline much less Abadeer. Abadeer shouldn’t be held to pre determined power levels of weak characters

 

[Damage3245]

Lemme rephrase.
The Lich throughout the multiverse is the same creature with the same level of power. He in different keys wouldn’t vary in strength

I can see the Lich easily having the same levels of magical ability between different versions of himself, but I don't see why the Lich in Jake's body and with shapeshifting powers couldn't be physically stronger (or weaker) than a different version of the Lich who has a different body..

Weren’t you the one who coined the term consistent outliers?

I can't remember.

But then, how do we decide if something is a consistent outlier or a consistent valid piece of scaling?

Finn’s weaker than human Marceline much less Abadeer. Abadeer shouldn’t be held to pre determined power levels of weak characters

I'm not so sure about that.

Is this what you're proposing the scaling be for the characters more or less?

EDIT: I've forgotten two of Marceline's keys from the diagram, but I think that's all.

 

[KingTempest]

I can see the Lich easily having the same levels of magical ability between different versions of himself, but I don't see why the Lich in Jake's body and with shapeshifting powers couldn't be physically stronger (or weaker) than a different version of the Lich who has a different body..

Lich is just possessing and overtaking the body of his victims, which is what he did. Him shadowing a skeleton and a random dog doesn’t mean much, unless he takes a supernatural body like death or something

I can't remember.

But then, how do we decide if something is a consistent outlier or a consistent valid piece of scaling?

Narrative.
Finn is hilariously weaker than the Lich, so he won’t scale for outlier feats like when he pulled his face out his body, when Bonnie said the only think that could beat him is that gauntlet.

Fleshed out scaling.
A strengthened Finn is far weaker than human Marceline, who is weaker than vampire queen Marceline, who is weaker than Abadeer. Scaling early Finn to Abadeer is insanity.

Common sense.
Dudes who struggle with random creatures who terrorize tiny kingdoms cannot scale to the cosmic entities of the universe who rule solar systems.

I'm not so sure about that.

Is this what you're proposing the scaling be for the characters more or less?

This seems like a trick question. That’s just what it is rn.

 

[Damage3245]

This seems like a trick question. That’s just what it is rn.

It's not a trick question, I want to make sure that we're on the same page.

It's different from the current profiles only in that the Citadel Guardians have been removed from the equation.

The entire scaling chain depends on the Evil Cosmic Robot's Attack Potency being considered equal/comparable to Orgalorg's Striking Strength/Durability via this scan from the Encyclopedia.

@Ultima_Reality @Sir_Ovens @DemonGodMitchAubin @DarkDragonMedeus @UchihaSlayer96 @Elizhaa @LordGriffin1000

Does the above scan look sufficient for scaling Orgalorg (Gunter) to the calc?

My issues with it currently is that the character who the statement is sourced to (Hunson Abadeer) hasn't shown any awareness of the existence of the character who made it, the statement itself doesn't appear to be for raw power in the first place, and none of the characters in the existing top tier scaling chain have any 5-A feats themselves or seemingly anything close to it. The Evil Cosmic Robot, to me, appears to be a character unrelated to the main cast's powerscaling and we'd be better off scaling the characters more directly from their own feats and scaling instead of this one-time display of 5-A AP from a character that nobody interacts with.

 

[KingTempest]

The Evil Cosmic Robot, to me, appears to be a character unrelated to the main cast's powerscaling and we'd be better off scaling the characters more directly from their own feats and scaling instead of this one-time display of 5-A AP from a character that nobody interacts with.

That the citadel guardians interact with*

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

Hunson Abadeer is a cosmic entity who has existed since forever

I feel he would know…

 

[KingTempest]

Hunson Abadeer is a cosmic entity who has existed since forever

I feel he would know…

THANK YOU

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

Also Orgalorg is a monster that also predates all of existence. Like he literally existed before nothingness… He’s definitely above the Citadel Guardians who can’t even contain the Lich

Also those Citadel Guardians can just null the random pyramid robot with them crystals, the same ones the Lich can destroy with ease… I don’t see the problem here. Orgalorg is literally called the World Breaker

And technically the Lich’s hand scales above New Death, who can obliterate entire Dead Worlds, which at bare minimum, are definitely planet sized

 

[KingTempest]

Also Orgalorg is a monster that also predates all of existence. Like he literally existed before nothingness… He’s definitely above the Citadel Guardians who can’t even contain the Lich

Also those Citadel Guardians can just null the random pyramid robot with them crystals, the same ones the Lich can destroy with ease… I don’t see the problem here. Orgalorg is literally called the World Breaker

And technically the Lich’s hand scales above New Death, who can obliterate entire Dead Worlds, which at bare minimum, are definitely planet sized

Oh my g- THANK YOU