Legendary Pokémon Downgrade

[Peter1129]

So from what I see here.

Nobody seems to have a problem with removing Zygarde's extra key. Though I guess we should wait for a bit more input here.

People disagree with Magearna being downgraded since Zygarde decides to use his 100% form to weaken the beam rather than 50%. So Magearna should be updated to being stronger than 50% Zygarde but weaker than 100% Zygarde who managed to weaken the beam with a single attack.

Mega Mewtwo scales above Mega Rayquaza who is 420 Zettatons but is weaker than 50% Zygarde who is 717 Zettatons.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Why would Magearna be weaker? Perfect Zygarde only weakened her attack, he didnt stop it all on his lonesome.

That would show shes ever-slightly superior, which she currently is.

 

[Peter1129]

He didn't try to stop it himself and I assume he's stronger since he could weaken it to the point where the wild pokemon could completely cancel it out with just a single casual attack. Even before that the beam was held back by the wild pokemon for quite a long time.

But if you think Magearna should be stronger than 100% Zygarde than I guess that's fine. Since Magearna is still going to be 5-B either way. Though I'd rather wait for more input.

 

[Overlord775]

@Kukui

Because he countered her best attacks with a rather casual one

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

@Kukui
Because he countered her best attacks with a rather casual one

Using a single attack doesnt neccessarily mean its a casual one. Zygarde saw the need to go full on against Magearna by turning into Perfect Z, I doubt he would have casually blocked it. Especially since fodder mon were still needed afterward to stop it entirely. Zygarde wouldnt have had to "just weaken it" basically. If he could have stopped the whole thing on his own, he would have.

And why would Magearna be only 5-B now again?

 

[Peter1129]

Oh right if Magearna is stronger than 100% Zygarde it would be 5-B+ and not 5-B sorry my mistake.

Still I think we should see if anybody else thinks Magearna is stronger than or weaker than 100% Zygarde.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Oh right if Magearna is stronger than 100% Zygarde it would be 5-B+ and not 5-B sorry my mistake.
Still I think we should see if anybody else thinks Magearna is stronger than or weaker than 100% Zygarde.

No problem. Still, why 5-B+ again instead of 5-A?

 

[Peter1129]

Didn't you read the op? We are removing Zygarde's key after it absorbed Xerneas and Yveltal because that never happened. It only absorbed some power from their battle it didn't literally absorb both of them into itself.

 

[Overlord775]

@Kukui

Zygarde just weakened it enought so the other pokemons efforts were enought to stop it

if he needed to get serius to stop it, he would have fired with all his snake head cannons

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Theres such a thing as using a different kind of attack to use full power with instead of always needing to use a signature move. Zygarde wouldnt have needed to allow normal pokemon to finish the job if he could have just stopped the whole attack on his own.

@Peter

Oh that. Hmm...I guess that would be okay, but the problem is, Perfect Zygarde is supposed to be a form that exceeds the full powers of Yveltal and Xerneas. Even if 50% Zygarde didnt literally absorb them both into itself, shouldnt P.Z. be 5-A still for completely dwarfing the power of the 2?

 

[Peter1129]

Xerneas is just 717 Zettatons. Baseline 5-A starts at 2.7 Yottatons. So Complete Zygarde would need to be 3.76569037657x stronger than Xerneas to be 5-A. I'm pretty sure just being much stronger than both of them combined won't cut it.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Xerneas is just 717 Zettatons. Baseline 5-A starts at 2.7 Yottatons. So Complete Zygarde would need to be 3.76569037657x stronger than Xerneas to be 5-A.

Xerneas did the feat just by dying as the ToL right?

 

[Peter1129]

Isn't the Tree of Life 717 Zettatons for propeling the Earth to spin and move around the Sun? Dark Matter is a completely seperate entity whose influence overpowered the Tree of Life.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Isn't the Tree of Life 717 Zettatons for propeling the Earth to spin and move around the Sun? Dark Matter is a completely seperate entity whose influence overpowered the Tree of Life.

Yes but IIRC that happens when the Tree of Life (Xerneas) is dying.

I never finished Super Mystery Dungeon myself tho so I could be wrong on this part.

 

[Overlord775]

The Earth stopped rotating and was pummeling towards the sun because Xerneas was dying

so no

 

[Peter1129]

Well you should probably ask somebody else about that. I only read that Xerneas is 717 Zettatons I don't know how casual it was.

Edit: Well Overlord answered the question.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

The Earth stopped rotating and was pummeling towards the sun because Xerneas was dying
so no

That means Xerneas did the feat just by dying.

That should be pretty casual.

 

[HammerStrikes219]

I not sure dying = being pretty casual usually unless that means Xerneas wasn't use its full power while doing the feat in question and was drained too.

 

[Peter1129]

Didn't Overlord say the Earth stopped rotating because Xerneas was dying? So doesn't that mean Xerneas can't perform the 717 Zettatons feat since its dying. Or does it mean it's managing to perform the 717 Zettaton feat while dying?

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

I not sure dying = being pretty casual usually unless that means Xerneas wasn't use its full power while doing the feat in question and was drained too.

Xerneas as the Tree of Life was at near death and as a result, the feat happened.

It wouldnt have been able to use any notable power to do the feat because it was at near death. Unless im looking at this the wrong way, that should be casual.

 

[HammerStrikes219]

Didn't Overlord say the Earth stopped rotating because Xerneas was dying? So doesn't that mean Xerneas can't perform the 717 Zettatons feat since its dying. Or does it mean it's managing to perform the 717 Zettaton feat while dying?

Yeah this is kinda confusing. If there is a video for this, I will like to see it.

 

[Overlord775]

Xerneas is what keeps the earth rotating and circulationg around the sun

he wasn't able to do that after being reduced to next to death

so both rotating and circulating stopped

 

[Peter1129]

So the it's the former and not the latter right?

 

[Overlord775]

Xerneas can't perform the 717 Zettatons feat since its dying.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

But the 717 feat isnt Xerneas keeping the earth rotating around the sun right? The feat is the planet being hurled into the sun as a result of Xerneas being at near death?

 

[Peter1129]

Alright so yeah that confirms it. 100% Zygarde can't be 5-A. So if Magearna does turn out to be stronger than 100% Zygarde it will just be 5-B+. Although I'm pretty sure even if it was casual 5-A Zygarde wouldn't be accepted since the gap between the feat and baseline 5-A is simply way too big.

 

[HammerStrikes219]

So the it's the former and not the latter right?

Apparently so, but here lies in the problem. If the Earth's rotation and circulation is tied to Xerneas, then the next question is whatever it is casual or not.

 

[Overlord775]

But the 717 feat isnt Xerneas keeping the earth rotating around the sun right? The feat is the planet being hurled into the sun as a result of Xerneas being at near death?

the feat is Xerneas keeping the earth rotating and orbitating around the sun

the planet being hurled into the sun is just the result of Xernas not being able to provide enought energy to keep the system going

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Xerneas can't perform the 717 Zettatons feat since its dying.

Read what I said last.

The feat is happening because Xerneas is dying. If Xerneas can make the feat happen while almost entirely drained of strength, then its normal level of power should be much beyond what it can do at near-death. Unless im looking at this the wrong way.<s/>

EDIT: Ignore this.

 

[DragonEmperor23]

the feat is Xerneas keeping the earth rotating and orbitating around the sun

the planet being hurled into the sun is just the result of Xernas not being able to provide enought energy to keep the system going

this makes sense

 

[HammerStrikes219]

Alright so yeah that confirms it. 100% Zygarde can't be 5-A. So if Magearna does turn out to be stronger than 100% Zygarde it will just be 5-B+. Although I'm pretty sure even if it was casual 5-A Zygarde wouldn't be accepted since the gap between the feat and baseline 5-A is simply way too big.

I think you are overestimating the gap.

The gap between 5B and 5A is indicated here: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Attack_Potency#Attack_Potency_Chart

5A starts out at 2.7 Yottatons of course. Now I not arguing if the 5A rating should stay or not, just to clarify the gap isn't that ridiculous big.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

the feat is Xerneas keeping the earth rotating and orbitating around the sun

the planet being hurled into the sun is just the result of Xernas not being able to provide enought energy to keep the system going

this makes sense

My bad, didnt see this before my last reply. Okay so the feat is Xerneas keeping the earth rotating around the sun, not propelling it into the sun.

Thing is...wouldnt this still be casual? The earth rotates around the sun....a lot to say the least....and the Tree of Life (Xerneas) does this constantly.

 

[Peter1129]

Even if 100% Zygarde is much stronger than the combined might of Xerneas and Yveltal the gap is still 1.88284518828x. That's still too big of a gap for the site to accept 100% Zygarde as a baseline 5-A.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

The problem is, the 717 feat is Xerneas keeping the earth rotating around the sun.

Which, in the PMD cosmology, has happened for like millions and millions of years. I misinterpreted the feat, my bad, but this still sounds kind of casual.

 

[Overlord775]

that's just stamina tho

 

[HammerStrikes219]

http://web.archive.org/web/20160505...es-round-pokemon-super-mystery-dungeon.33405/

Yeah this is all the feat Overlord and Peter are referring to.. Wait a minute what was the accepted end for this calc?

In fact this came from Narutoforum.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

that's just stamina tho

Im pretty sure putting in a constant flow of power to keep something as massive as earth propelling around the sun in a timeframe of, like, billions of years to say the least (since the earth has existed for that long and much longer) would be more than a stamina feat.

At least thats what im thinking.

 

[Peter1129]

I think low end is accepted since the user even said the high end is questionable.

 

[HammerStrikes219]

I think low end is accepted since the user even said the high end is questionable.

Not sure as their procedure also need approval from the other users regardng which end is accepted.

 

[Peter1129]

I mean the low end is what's currently used on Xerneas' profile so I'm pretty sure it's accepted since the high end is High 5-A and not 5-B.