Let's ensure that characters know who they are fighting by SBA

[DontTalkDT]

It recently came up in a thread and I feel like this is some small important detail, that's easy enough to fix.

So currently the SBA states that "The fighters will have absolutely no prior knowledge of each other. " The problem with that is, that it basically prevents a proper fight from happening.
Taken literally it means that the fighters have no knowledge where the opponent is or how to differentiate it from any random human or animal around them.
The fighters would essentially have to go on a random murder spree killing everything around them and hope that they eventually kill the right one.
This isn't how we ever assumed fights to happen, but it is time to put what we assume in writing to avoid ambiguity.

So what I suggest to say in regards to prior knowledge is the following: "The characters know the direction their opponent(s) start in. Furthermore, they get knowledge of the character's appearance, equivalent to the knowledge they could have gained if they would have been allowed to briefly observe the form opponent(s) starting in using their senses of sight, hearing, smell, taste and touch. It's assumed that they only get the information necessary to identify the opponent(s), so abilities like Information Analysis can not be used based on this knowledge. Negative effects of the observation, such as those caused by Madness Manipulation Type 3, are assumed to not apply for this knowledge either."

Let me explain why I choose this formulation. The part about knowing the starting direction of the opponent is simply so that they don't start running of in random directions and ultimately end up never finding each other. It reduces the chance of that happening a lot.
The second sentence is supposed to specify the idea of "knowing who the opponent is". As I explained above we generally want to have the characters be able to distinguish between things that aren't the opponent and those that are. However, the opponent should be allowed to use disguises and shapeshifting and stuff to evade identification. So we can't simply say they know who the opponent is.
Similarly, we can't say they just get to briefly meet each other, since some characters are able to gain knowledge of a characters entire history and skills with a single look.
Ideally, I would like to say something like they get a photo, but some characters are blind and stuff, so that doesn't really work either.
Hence I compromised to saying that they get information of all 5 senses.
And the last sentence simply covers that prior knowledge can't be used as an attack before the battle.

What do you think, everyone?

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Edit: A good alternative proposal based on the discussion below could also be:
"The characters know the direction their opponent(s) start in. Furthermore, they get a description detailed enough to recognize the character in their starting form upon perceiving them. It's assumed that they only get the information necessary to identify the opponent(s), so none of their abilities may activate based on their description. Likewise, all negative effects of being given this knowledge don't apply until they get it again within the battle itself."

Which one do you prefer?

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Hmm what if a character has insanely good Information Analysis on sight. Would said character start with that knowledge?

 

[DontTalkDT]

Hmm what if a character has insanely good Information Analysis on sight. Would said character start with that knowledge?

I would say no. The point is for them to be able to identify their opponent, not to get an advantage before the battle starts.
I will add to my draft to reflect that.

 

[Schnee_One]

How does a character get knowledge of their appearance but Type 3 Madness won't affect them?

 

[DontTalkDT]

How does a character get knowledge of their appearance but Type 3 Madness won't affect them?

It could be powernull that can do that or that the information they get is abridged enough that madness doesn't happen.
In any case, they just do. There is no real need to think about how it is achieved. (Similar to the time specification we have in the SBA) Once the battle starts and they make an observation again it would of course work as normal.

 

[Ogbunabali]

Huh. I thought we already had a rule that the characters knew who they were fighting and their general location at the star of the match.

But instead of giving them the knowledge of appearance/sense, I think it's better to just give them the "you know it when you see it" type of rule and the starting location of the opponent. That way we avoid situation like Madness Manip and, like Earl mentioned, Analysis, etc.

 

[Schnee_One]

Ogb makes sense

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Yeah. And to all the “What if they get haxed on sight due to this”, my answer is “don’t think about it too hard.”

 

[Firephoenixearl]

To all the "get haxed on sight". Let's just say they use a picture or sth. They checked their insta or matched on tinder idk.

Fair on the "no info analysis though".

 

[DontTalkDT]

Huh. I thought we already had a rule that the characters knew who they were fighting and their general location at the star of the match.

It's usually assumed, but I don't think we ever really wrote it down. The ambiguous nature of it made some trouble in a recent vs-thread I was in, hence I decided we should put the details into text.

But instead of giving them the knowledge of appearance/sense, I think it's better to just give them the "you know it when you see it" type of rule

As I said the the OP, just saying they know when they see it would mean that shapeshifters can't fool the opponent by changing how they look.
There needs to be some limit for the recognition, hence the entire 5 senses thing.

 

[Elizhaa]

I am fine with the OP's additions.

 

[Bobsican]

To all the "get haxed on sight". Let's just say they use a picture or sth. They checked their insta or matched on tinder idk.

Fair on the "no info analysis though".

There's cases like cognitohazards on SCP Foundation where a picture would give the same haxy results anyways, but it's like how we assume that by SBA they simply teleport to Central Park and aren't confused at all, just a mechanic for the sake of the match-up.

Speaking of that, I would like a clarification on if the place where SBA takes place holds a cosmology that is taken is a "neutral cosmology" (Aka, it's actually outside the cosmology of either participant) by default, or is simply between the two even in cases where this can easily get arbitrary out of cosmological semantics between them. This is important for characters that have stuff reliant on something that's in another universe (And beyond, this also includes range stuff) or based in some verse mechanic specifically related to being in another cosmology from the native one.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

This seems fairly legit.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Agreed.

 

[Daddybrawl]

I agree with not the OP, but the aforementioned ‘Know it when you see it’ statement. The OPs proposition sounds a bit.. iffy to me. What if you can’t observe the fighter with 5 senses? What does it mean by ‘true form’- if a Key’s a weakened form, such as SCP-682, are they going to see that form or his higher-dimensional form? It also just feels like too much text, and ‘true form’ sounds like you’re trying to get prior knowledge on characters that have their true form concealed, such as character who are Possessing a character which their key comes from, or are controlled by a Virus such as the thread that inspired this one (ngl it does feel like you’re trying to allow them to get prior knowledge that they have a virus, but I digress)

tl;dr I disagree with Op, agree with the proposition in the comments, because too much text and feels like prior knowledge

 

[DontTalkDT]

I agree with not the OP, but the aforementioned ‘Know it when you see it’ statement. The OPs proposition sounds a bit.. iffy to me. What if you can’t observe the fighter with 5 senses? What does it mean by ‘true form’- if a Key’s a weakened form, such as SCP-682, are they going to see that form or his higher-dimensional form? It also just feels like too much text, and ‘true form’ sounds like you’re trying to get prior knowledge on characters that have their true form concealed, such as character who are Possessing a character which their key comes from, or are controlled by a Virus such as the thread that inspired this one (ngl it does feel like you’re trying to allow them to get prior knowledge that they have a virus, but I digress)

tl;dr I disagree with Op, agree with the proposition in the comments, because too much text and feels like prior knowledge

I already explained why "know it when you see it" doesn't work. It means that shapeshifters can't use their abilities.
True form as in original form. I.e. for a shapeshifter it's the untransformed form. I guess I could change it to say "the form they start in" or something.
If you can't observe the fighter with 5 senses you would get the knowledge that the opponent is unobservable. That's the bare minimum you would need to know to not mistake them with anything else then.

 

[QuasiYuri]

I don't think "true form" would work well, since some dudes rely on their true form not being seen and all in fights.

However I do agree with sonething like "get a general sense of who they are fighting".

 

[Daddybrawl]

A: Not only is Shapeshifting pretty hard to use offensively in combat, but it’s not negated by this sort of thing. ‘Know it when you see it’ applies to when the fight starts, not while it’s going on. You can easily Shapeshift and crawl away or something after someone tries to beat you to death, if a character would even Shapeshift at all during combat.
B and C: Alright then. Those are pretty reasonable. I stand by my side that ‘see with all 5 senses’ or something is opening up loopholes+ it’s too much text, though.

 

[DontTalkDT]

I don't think "true form" would work well, since some dudes rely on their true form not being seen and all in fights.

However I do agree with sonething like "get a general sense of who they are fighting".

We kinda need to specify what "general sense" means, though. Is "form they start in" like I edited it now better?

A: Not only is Shapeshifting pretty hard to use offensively in combat, but it’s not negated by this sort of thing. ‘Know it when you see it’ applies to when the fight starts, not while it’s going on. You can easily Shapeshift and crawl away or something after someone tries to beat you to death, if a character would even Shapeshift at all during combat.
B and C: Alright then. Those are pretty reasonable. I stand by my side that ‘see with all 5 senses’ or something is opening up loopholes+ it’s too much text, though.

If you just said "know it when they see it" it would imply that whenever they see the shapeshifter they know who it is. The idea of "only at the start of the battle" doesn't work either, since the battle can start with so much distance between combatants that they never see each other before on of them decides to disguise themself.

 

[Daddybrawl]

...give me one example of a fight between characters that took place where neither could see eachother. Give me one example of a fight where a Shapeshifter would be able to not only change their appearance, but use it for combat purposes. Currently, it feels like you’re trying to purposely poke holes in it that no one would reasonably do.

 

[QuasiYuri]

Form they start in sounds like a good alternative yeah.

Also to respond to Daddybrawl for"fight when they can't see each others" or "use shapeshifting offensively":

Invisible Dragon vs Invivisible Dragon
Bonclay vs Sanji

 

[DontTalkDT]

...give me one example of a fight between characters that took place where neither could see eachother. Give me one example of a fight where a Shapeshifter would be able to not only change their appearance, but use it for combat purposes. Currently, it feels like you’re trying to purposely poke holes in it that no one would reasonably do.

If you want further examples than what YuriAkuto said, it isn't hard to come up with examples.
I know Vandalieu is prone to fool people with his appearance.
A concrete one could, for instance, be Mystique (X-Men Film Series) vs Usagi Saionji. Usagi has 2.9km range, but due to the trees can't instantly spot the opponent. Mystique could win this fight, but the requirement for that is that she transforms into a form Usagi doesn't recognize on sight before she does manage to find a position to see her in.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Anything left that should get changed? Otherwise, I will apply the change after I slept.

 

[Ogbunabali]

As I said the the OP, just saying they know when they see it would mean that shapeshifters can't fool the opponent by changing how they look.
There needs to be some limit for the recognition, hence the entire 5 senses thing.

Why would shapeshifters be affected by this? Obviously a shapeshifter/illusions wouldn't fall under this and just the form that appeared when the fight started. I didn't think I needed to spell that out.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Why would shapeshifters be affected by this? Obviously a shapeshifter/illusions wouldn't fall under this and just the form that appeared when the fight started. I didn't think I needed to spell that out.

You don't need to. The formulation to be put on the page, on the other hand, does need to spell out that changing one's appearance can evade detection.
At that point, it is easier to say that they start out knowing the general information of what to search for, rather than specifying exactly which degree of disguise prevents the recognition effect from triggering. Some people might also be better at seeing through disguises than others, so... yeah it just gets complicated that way.

 

[Ogbunabali]

I disagree. I think it's a lot better to just a couple of additional words to clarify that you're talking about the form the characters enters in, instead of trying to justify with multiple points why knowing everything about a person but somehow ignoring how Batman who can read an entire history of a person by looking at him would just ignore the fact that he can do that. Or why someone wouldn't go mad by looking at an eldritch monstrosity. Or why Hannibal wouldn't utilize his most valuable asset, his sense of smell, to track other from kilometers. And so on and so forth.

That's much more of a headache.

 

[Daddybrawl]

I feel like it’s easier to say ‘they know who they’re fighting, but don’t have prior knowledge.’ Help isn’t even allowed, by SBA standards the battlefield shouldn’t have anyone else in it unless the OP states it.

 

[AKM sama]

The part about knowing the starting position of the opponent is simply so that they don't start running of in random directions and ultimately end up never finding each other. It reduces the chance of that happening a lot.

This kinda disadvantages the character who has enhanced senses and extrasensory perception, because this rule is basically taking these abiltities out of the game and giving an advantage to the other character.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I think another detail is the character with the superior range is usually the one who notices first seems reasonable. And honestly SBA should be case by case.

 

[DontTalkDT]

This kinda disadvantages the character who has enhanced senses and extrasensory perception, because this rule is basically taking these abiltities out of the game and giving an advantage to the other character.

What alternative do you suggest? I guess one could say they only get the direction the opponent starts in, without knowing the distance?

And honestly SBA should be case by case.

The point of SBA is that it's what is assumed if the thread maker doesn't specify. It being case-by-case doesn't work. Best one can do is say that "If extreme advantages are generated via this to one side, a balanced alternative should be discussed in the thread" preceded by some standard rule.

I think another detail is the character with the superior range is usually the one who notices first seems reasonable.

How much of a time gap does "first" imply, though?

 

[Tllmbrg]

This kinda disadvantages the character who has enhanced senses and extrasensory perception, because this rule is basically taking these abiltities out of the game and giving an advantage to the other character.

I mean they could still use it later in the fight if they fight an opponent that relies on stealth
Or so they can keep tabs on a dude when they're going to long range

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Can't we fix this just by saying "there are no other people around"?

Don't need to know what they look like if there are no civilians around.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Can't we fix this just by saying "there are no other people around"?

Don't need to know what they look like if there are no civilians around.

Well, for a start not all characters look like humans. There are also some that look like animals or plants for instance.

And people, animals and plants should be around for people with the ability to manipulate those to control. That's part of the intention behind choosing Central Park, that most of the common stuff you would have around to control happens to be available.

And of course, the ability to blend into a crowd is relevant for assassins. If you're the only human around disguising yourself would do nothing.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

My issue with having people around is for people that have a lot of abilities that can cause area damage, but would usually avoid hurting civilians.

 

[DontTalkDT]

My issue with having people around is for people that have a lot of abilities that can cause area damage, but would usually avoid hurting civilians.

We had a thread about that before, which got side-tracked I think. The simple solution to that would be that we deactivate morals towards bystanders as apart of the state of mind.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Hmm, fair enough. I have no issues with there being people around then.

As for how do we have people know. How about they're described physically in absolute detail before the match?

 

[DontTalkDT]

As for how do we have people know. How about they're described physically in absolute detail before the match?

Hmmm... I guess that could be a decent option as well.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

We also tell them the opponent's exact position ofc.

This does not make people with ESP useless because the opponent can obviously move from that spot.

 

[AKM sama]

I guess one could say they only get the direction the opponent starts in, without knowing the distance?

I guess that works.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I’ll say it again

don’t think about it too hard

Y’all are thinking about it too hard