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Let's talk about DOTA 2...

BleedingPeach

BleedingPeach

948
212
Ok... I make this thread so we can discuss the how outdated the verse is.

Since I don't know if the idea of making a thread in "General Discussions" is viable, I came here to ask you to read the profiles in the verse and the loooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooots of characters that are left. Also that Unknown tier we have it to not give explanations is something that bothers me. No, not the tier itself but the fact that if it's not known is because we don't talk about this verse.

Also I made this thread to see who cares about DOTA... let's see what I get
 
Yeah dota needs some more love, I've been trying to get back into the lore but keep getting sidetracked
 
The problem here is that with Underlords we can say that the lore has been expanded. Also, we can say that Pure Damage ignores durability since no matter how much HP, armor or HAX you have said damage doesn't care about your stats and simply hurt you no matter what; the other thing we need to get is that there's characters that have "calculations" and how we don't scale said characters to them. If you thing about it, magic users and casters would be Low 7-B, since a Multi-City Block (8-A) is a blatant lowballing.
 
You've looked into the card game yes? Would you be able to put all of the feats given by it into a blog or something? We can work from there
 
Didn't some dev on twitter or something remark on that each game played in is its own parallel timeline or the like? Feel like that'd affect some peeps tiering.
 
Womp wah.

I feel like large size for a lot of the guys in game would help out with ascribing unknown tiers.

Underlord is a freaking giant and shit and we know how that should scale up his proportional AP stats due being sort of a kaiju.
 
Hmm ya nvm. Also all the heroes do kinda scale back to Roshan too :/

Earthshaker's kinda the mid tier benchmark here to look for feats / statements to scale above.
 
Not necessarily, there are five or six 8-A/8-B+ feats currently used and a few more that need to be calced
 
Oh, which need calcing. Well Crystal Maiden's feat to start with, maybe Beastmaster's Primal Roar too
 
But 8-A is somehow a lowballing for most of magic users. Also, since most of the elementals would have a High 4-C, leaving Lina and CM in that place with their Arcana. The same could be said about Earthshaker's Arcana. The other who should also be High 4-C is Ancient Apparition in his first key since in his dialog he says to Enigma: "Elementals to Elemental" (Really Kaldr? Enigma an elemental?). You may ask how do I scale to that... Because they turn into elementals. That also should be scaled to Razor and the Elemental Brothers, since all of them are elementals.

But that doesn't end there... Since we have to discuss who we scale to Alchemist and their Low 7-B. For me, most of the common magic users should be scaled to that. Actually Tidehunter, Medusa or even Winter Wyvern are above the keen support.
 
Because when he accomplished that feat you gotta think that even the a magic user could actually beat the crap out of him... lore-wise. Let's not talk about how he is an in-game bothering.

The creeps,.. well... I would like to understand to. And Roshan's feat is sooooooooooooo outdated
 
Check out the lore for every character. When you have done that, then we can talk. Bring me your thoughts, because I'd we go by the fact that EVERY DOTA ROUND IS CANON, then everyone should be Low 2-C. But actually why should care about not scaling then to Alchemist? Since everyone beat the crap out of Weaver, then everyone is Low 2-C. That last thing is just BS.
 
Two things:

1. Get all the scans from Artifact and I'll go through the rest of the lore

2. Where was it said that every in-game match is canon?
 
lol its been ages since I touched Dota 2 and I am definitely not getting artifact any time soon..but sounds like things got real interesting with it.
 
Every game of #Dota2 is canon. Every possible variant of the final battle between light and dark is played out and made real. When either the Dire or Radiant lose they just... rewind the tape. Epic do-over. Change a variable and try again. #Dota2 is the knot at the end of time. #Dota2 is canon. Every possible variant of the final battle between light and dark is played out and made real. When either the Dire or Radiant lose they just... rewind the tape. Epic do-over. Change a variable and try again. #Dota2 is the knot at the end of time.

Also this kind of things we got by Underlords. There's no writing yet but this counts as evidence. If we don't count some things as evidence, then we gotta admit that Chaos Knight isn't the strongest of the Fundamentals. Why? Just because Enigma said it in an in-game dialog, whether we like it or not, dialog is canon.
 
pretty sure the lore backs the ancients influence is being in play there and adjusts powerscaling and everything within the final battle in some respect due to helping out them with their power via empowerment or stat manip or something along with the revivals and stuff? Least the way I guess for it, its why bristleback has a voiceline where he can beat an elemental that he claims he thought would be stronger than what's established in lore and yet maybe some heroes in certain battles are weakened by the influence of the Foe stone? bristlebacks's normally not star level by his own feats or lorewise scaling to phoenix being a comparable elemental level being via title and such with having his feat of causing a supernova for a yellow sun? "I thought elementals were stronger than that." - bristleback killing phoenix

https://dota2.gamepedia.com/Archronicus

"The Ancients, both Radiant and Dire, provided many benefits: kinetic energy, mana, protection, even resurrection. But the emanations changed everything in their influence. Around the Radiant, the effects were bright and colorful, evoking lightness and charm. Around the Dire, a sinister radioactive glow, a visual seepage indicative of poison and decay. Neither force was neutral; they were both perfect complements and total contradictions that could never be at peace.
As each stone's cultural influence spread, it eventually came in conflict with the societies of its rival. Interference between the Ancients was cause for war, as the presence of one caused a corresponding fall-off in the energy of the other. Each stone could only be restored to full power with the destruction of its Foe-stone. And so the enthralled creatures rallied to protect their land by destroying the neighboring Ancient, and from far and wide the Heroes heard the call to battle and came to join, hardly realizing that in some sense both sides were the same"
-from a lore book quote.
there's enough pre war stuff known and combat events referenced about for powerscaling either way via statements and item descriptions and comic media to know what their static level without the ancients influence would be for the heroes. dunno how well that meshes with artifact since i dont play it but yeah.
 
BleedingPeach said:
Check this channel on YouTube, she gives nice analysis regarding characters
Click to expand...
So, is someone against the idea of Elemental Spirits, Monkey King, Razor or Earthshaker's Arcana being High 4-C? Also Maiden could be scaled to Winter Wyvern since she is at her power level. The idea of them being Low 7-B plausible since Maiden protects Icewrack, and Wyvern is comparable, if not superior, to Alchemist and Dragon Knight (Slyrack could defeat entire countries and when I get home I will post that proof)
 
Yulsaria has stated she could make blizzards and hailstorms which i think we have rl figures for calcs on that to base upon. Shes kind of a standalone in regards to we dont know how Slyrak faced her and if he took and endured focused attacks at all or just roasted her without her shielding hershielf or blizted her or how the fight went down at all since its entirely offscreen but it does help give claim to maybe Rubick post arcana standing for his stats if his arcana states he tapped into like the well of all magic energy or being revered and claims as tapping into great cosmic magical power or someshiz? Prolly other magic users with such claims like invoker with arcana description would scale to Yulsaria if they don't already scale above that.

I guess generally if you wanna do a prolly ok to compare to natural storms via some condensation method it'd be circa what alch gets like small city level?

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Cloud_Calculations#Common_Results

2.277E16 Joules

https://dota2.gamepedia.com/Yulsaria's_Mantle

"In an age now lost to time, the Frozen Witch Yulsaria ruled the whitelands, summoning blizzards and hail storms upon those who displeased her, while an army of ice golems roamed the lands to snuff out all warmth. In time, her southward expansion angered the Eldwurm Slyrak who, in his terrible rage, melted Yulsaria's armies with his endless flame before conquering the Frozen Witch herself. Now, centuries later, shifts in the ice have uncovered yet another shard of her empire: her frosty mantle."

"Most Magi believed the Puzzle of Perplex to be a mere curiosity. Yet generations of wizards had broken themselves trying to solve it. And even after the Grand Magus thought he finally grasped the crux of its secret, the epiphany of true meaning came only much later—that the knowledge at the heart of Perplex might allow him to alter the very foundations of magic itself. Now, no longer limited to masterful mimicry, Rubick toys with the boundaries of arcane artistry, reshaping the world of magic as he sees fit; always hungry for new preternatural mysteries to unravel and respool, and the undiscovered kingdoms of magic they too might reveal."

I think Invoker has an elemental level arcana or statements or some joke.
 
Elder Titan should literally rank the highest in the entire lore tbh if he was able to shatter the primordial consciousness in at least one iteration before he damaged himself; although we don't know the full mechanics behind it and how it was done. Other Titans referenced in his backstory are kinda are weird that they just got hit by and infused with the earliest energies when the universe was made by Mr. Elder Titan we play as; its basically said via his echo stomp move that he created the universe with the force/energy of his stomp?
 
With that said, we can say that Rylai is 7-B, above Alchemist. Now... Since the nature control is something that is plausible regarding her "magic", we can say that Zeus, Lina, Death Prophet or even Invoker can control the elements like she does, then that would mean that Magic Users are something like her. Being 7-B
 
Now... What are the reasons for not scaling the DOTA Heroes, but the Champions (LoL) could be said that they scale? Besides Mephistus and me, no one seems to care about this verse. When I return from my trip (the Saturday, possibly) I would start making profiles with the Low 7-B in the tier. Since Rylai/Crystal Maiden is 7-B, that tier she would be. If someone doesn't like this idea... tell me yours. But "waiting for calcs" ISN'T AN OPTION. Or we start to talk about getting this verse fresh or delete this verse entirely
 
You still havnt given reasoning why they would all be Low 7-B though, and going by the dev quote they should all be 2-C
 
Mephistus said:
@weeklybattles

Im for scaling peeps who's clear above maiden in terms of magic energy usage, like the magic wand item talks about.

Death prophet idk Lina is her rival so shes likely similar in terms of magic power/affinity? Zeus is a cosmic god with his magic energies with his special arcana item so that should be above, he also has that cratering a city statement tho and the card pic.

The ancients powers being in play helping the heroes murks powerscaling ,say, techies to weaver.
Click to expand...
 
When I said that WE can scale the heroes between each other, I said... READ THE LORE, GODAMMIT.

If you think Phantom Asssassin scales to Axe (by Oracle's profile) then make her a goddamn profile. Else... stop reflexing her from referencing her power in Oracle's profile. That's BS.

If we are going to depend on how many calculations we have, delete the verse. But read the lore to discuss who we scale to whom. I repeat it: if the idea doesn't like you, propose to delete the verse. I said
 
@Smoopbo

Again i bring up we can't truly powerscale between the heroes during the battle of the ancients since the ancients lorewise had been very much so influencing and assisting and lending their plethora of powers to the heroes defending their respective ancient, which just makes it very weird when certain heroes aren't hinted to even be of that level in lore. The ancients themselves are above nigh everyone. There needs to be a better justification which involves scaling the heroes solely on their own feats in any case.

@Bleedingpeach

I agree, scaling should be consistent here. If calculations are a problem for the verse, I am more than willing to put in some work for the verse in regards to calcs and feats, it just seems like we need to create a faily optimal powerscaling chain with lore citations. Given that there are a huge amount of characters to work with, it would be best to start with the comics or settings outside of the battle of the ancients or item descriptions or character statements that are directly giving info for relevant combat stats like speed or somesuch. If we go by in game speed, which hardly seems solid and weird given the Ancients influecing the heroes with their power, a lot of the stuff heroes can react to and relatively outspeed are things like Queen of Pain's soundwave attack, amongst other sonic reaction speed feats that would be supersonic / hypersonic. It's fairly inconsistent to use this because this is further changed by every patch changing speed variables in game and falls under that each hero was getting affected by the Ancients various powers. Certain feats can get calculated, we should start citing new stuff for at least the god-tiers since they are in need of a revamp.
 
@Meph Would you be able to calc Rylai's freezing feats?

"Born in a temperate realm, raised with her fiery older sister Lina, Rylai the Crystal Maiden soon found that her innate elemental affinity to ice created trouble for all those around her. Wellsprings and mountain rivers froze in moments if she stopped to rest nearby; ripening crops were bitten by frost, and fruiting orchards turned to mazes of ice and came crashing down, spoiled."

"One afternoon, she awoke to speak a single word: "Snowdrop". And with that one word, she caused her surroundings to freeze, turning the steam into falling snow."

This would be a good starting point
 
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