"Let's Talk About Magic"-Part 2: Magic P&A/Potency Revision & Explanation Page

[Eseseso]

"The language of the Mystic Arts is as old as civilization. The sorcerers of antiquity called the use of this language 'spells,' but if that word offends your modern sensibilities, you can call it a program; the source code that shapes reality. We harness energy drawn from other dimensions of the Multiverse to cast spells, to conjure shields and weapons, to make magic."

-Ancient One (Earth 199999) describing magic


After over 8.5 grueling months, I have finally finished the Marvel Magic revisions. In the sandbox below you will find a list of powers that all magic has regardless of type within Marvel, along with the powers each of the "mainstream" sorcerers should have based on their level of magic skill in-universe (and don't worry if something doesn't have a footnote, the imgur scan itself will have the source/reference of the issue itself).

Magic Explanation and P&A Page (Marvel Comics)

vsbattles.fandom.com

(Also, a huge thank you to @Ultima_Reality for helping me begin this entire thing by setting me on the right course in regards to researching the true nature of Marvel Magic, and to @omegabronic for helping out a ton with the footnotes)

As for which characters (that actually have profiles on the wiki) actually have which type/level of magic(s), here is my sandbox for that and for those who resist magic:

List of Marvel Comics Magic Users and their Magic Levels

vsbattles.fandom.com

(If I missed any in the users/resisters list, let me know).

In relation to the second sandbox, I plan on replacing the (in many cases lengthy and unorganized) P&A sections of the magic users with the descriptions in the given sandbox, with only magic powers belonging to that specific character remaining in their P&A sections.

Those who only resist the basic powers of magic (and for those who also resist unique magics like Hellfire or Chaos Magic), that will be listed in their resistance section.

One example of my revisions is with Doctor Doom:

Magic and Psionic Abilities section (asides from stuff unique to him):

Master of Sorcery at the High-Tier level, Spells from the Darkhold, Balatraan Magic, and likely Hellfire Manipulation

Resistances section (asides from stuff unique to him):

Resistance to Sorcery at the High-Tier level, the passive effects of the Darkhold, Chaos Magic, Hellfire & Demonic Magic, and Basic Chaos Magic




I hope this is a quick and relatively uncontroversial thread, even with the vast size of my revisions sandbox and its contents.

Staff Agreements: @Planck69, @Maverick_Zero_X, @Elizhaa, @DarkDragonMedeus, @Theglassman12, @Sir_Ovens

Staff Disagreements:

Neutral Staff:


Edit: Vote on additions to NEP for Magic:

Staff Agreements: @Planck69 (With adding Aspects 4 and 5 to NEP 2), @Sir_Ovens (With adding Aspects 4 and 5 to NEP 2), @AbaddonTheDisappointment (Same as Planck and Oven)

Staff Disagreements:

Neutral Staff: @Planck69 (On any NEP 3 for magic), @Sir_Ovens[/USER] (On any NEP 3 for magic), @AbaddonTheDisappointment (Same as Planck and Oven)

 

[Tomfer]

Peak.

For scans of MK's basic magic resistance, you can put that one comic of MK vs Doom I showed you on discord.

 

[Eseseso]

Peak.

For scans of MK's basic magic resistance, you can put that one comic of MK vs Doom I showed you on discord.

Did Doom use magic there? I just remember him using an electric beam from his armor to peel MK's armor.

 

[Tomfer]

Did Doom use magic there? I just remember him using an electric beam from his armor to peel MK's armor.

It's a generic beam of light. Yeah, it's a bit iffy than I remember tbh.

 

[Eseseso]

It's a generic beam of light. Yeah, it's a bit iffy than I remember tbh.

Ehhh, the beam that cut his armor came from Doom's own armor (his finger), and even then Doom seemed to be intentionally not going for the kill.

Plus, doesn't Moon Knight have his own magic/resistance to magic?

 

[RM97]

Looks good imo

 

[Tomfer]

Ehhh, the beam that cut his armor came from Doom's own armor (his finger), and even then Doom seemed to be intentionally not going for the kill.

Oh, yeah, Doom wasn't trying to kill him for plot reasons (MK had something he wanted or something like that). Also fair.

Plus, doesn't Moon Knight have his own magic/resistance to magic?

Yeah, far better than that, like this one:

After the banishment of the first Necromancer, Moon Knight's mind and will become even stronger. This is also because his spirit harbors that of an ancient priest of Khonshu.[11] Strange claims that Moon Knight's willpower, even subconsciously, is so powerful that even he would not be able to break through to hypnotize him[12]

 

[Yuhady123]

You could add Yggdrasill on Sorcerer Supreme Level taking from Dr Strange called himself as God Of Magic after being bestowed by it.
(Maybe you could help me completing Ygdrasill sandbox after this)

 

[Setsuna_tenma]

disgaree with putting the other types of magic in the blog. Too little users to qualify having it in a blog

 

[Tomfer]

I think Hellfire should stay, there's far more users than the rest.

 

[Tomfer]

Also, I found a few Ghost Rider examples for the Hellfire.

Demonic Awareness (Can sense demons and sin), BFR (Can send Demons to any level of Hell. With soulless beings, it will only stun them for a brief time), Accelerated Development (Can grow exponetially), Power Nullification (Stripped away another Ghost Rider's powers), Summoning (Can summon any soul he rules in hell), Spiritual Possession (Can make other souls posses different bodies), Earth Manipulation (Can control metal)

• Damnation Stare: This ability evaluates the worthiness of individuals to continue existing in the mortal realm or determines if they should be immediately condemned to one of the levels of hell.

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

Seems simple enough

Such a Masterpiece deserves a special place in the dark dimension when Dormammu takes your soul to make you his right hand man.

I sense a format mistake in hellfire inner demon incorporeality

I saw that you made a slight list of who has magic resistance but will this apply to anyone in Marvel that has magic resistance? Or is there a special requirment? There are many pages of Marvel characters some of which have Magic resistance to some extent, and some have resistance to Hellfire which is also considered Magic. List all users who have resistance direcly or indirecly might be really hard.

 

[Excellence616]

Looks good. Nice work as always

 

[Hasty12345]

Looks good, but I'm confused as to how magic isn't plot manipulation given the description in the blog?

AND WHEN ARE WE GETTING A GOD OF STORIES LOKI PROFILE DAMN IT

Edit: ohhhhh nvm i found it, i'm just stupid

 

[Eseseso]

I think Hellfire should stay, there's far more users than the rest.

Same with Hell-Lord physiology/magic, we have like 8 Hell Lords.

Looks good, but I'm confused as to how magic isn't plot manipulation given the description in the blog?



Edit: ohhhhh nvm i found it, i'm just stupid

Nah I don't blame you, the "basic magic" section is huge.

 

[Setsuna_tenma]

Unconventional/Limited Resistance to Power Nullification: A gun made by Reed Richards that could nullify every type of scientific energy did absolutely nothing to the magic energy of a Doctor Doom who was wearing the magically powered Skin Armor

disagree with that. It just means the gun only works on scientific energy and not magic

 

[Eseseso]

disagree with that. It just means the gun only works on scientific energy and not magic

I get your issue, but I was intending to say that magic is immune to any power null that doesn't specifically work on magic as well, hence why it's "unconventional/limited".

Because as the power null sections in the "High-Tier Sorcerer" and "Sorcerer Supreme level" sorcerer show, skilled sorcerers can absolutely power null other sorcerers comparable to or below them in mystic skill/power.

 

[Eseseso]

Also, just want to give a TLDR on why magic is a Type 1 concept, in case the explanation in the sandbox is too lengthy for some:

Independent: Existed well before the current Marvel multiverse did, was apparently unaffected by the 7th multiverse's destruction in Secret Wars, existed before time itself did, and exists outside and opposite the concepts of logic itself.

Universal: A huge chunk of the Low 1-A Earth-616 is composed of magic, such as the High 1-B "mystic universe", the pan-dimensional Limbo, the Astral Plane, and the realm of Lord Chaos/Master Order which sustains much of Universal Eternity's substance. It's also one of the 6 core axes that forms the shape of Earth-616 itself. The 5 elements of magic are the 5 elements of "all-that is". Exists across all incarnations of the Low 1-A Earth-616 and across all of time.

Concept: Literally described as a "conceptual system", can replace the concepts of logic, is a prime factor in the composition of Gamma Radiation, which is a type 1 concept, as Gamma Radiation is a combination of science and magic, and allows one to alter the underlying fabric of Earth-616. It's also shown to be an abstract concept on its own, based on symbols and stories. The 5 elements of magic are the 5 elements of "all-that is". The very gods themselves, including those that are Type 1 Abstracts due to being "stories", are made of magic, with magic being one of the only things that can threaten and harm them.

 

[Setsuna_tenma]

I get your issue, but I was intending to say that magic is immune to any power null that doesn't specifically work on magic as well, hence why it's "unconventional/limited".

Because as the power null sections in the "High-Tier Sorcerer" and "Sorcerer Supreme level" sorcerer show, skilled sorcerers can absolutely power null other sorcerers comparable to or below them in mystic skill/power.

that is not powernull it is basic logic. Ofcourse non anti magic null will not work on magic does not mean it has resistance to powernull

 

[ProfectusInfinity]

Excellent work! Glad to see it turned out so well!

Introduction​

Looks great!

Magic as an Independent Universal Concept​

Looks great!

The Higher-Dimensional Potency of Magic​

Looks great!

• Basic/Innate​

Durability Negation/Resistance Negation: Magic has been repeatedly shown to bypass non-magical defenses, shields, and resistances, such as here[171], and it is hinted at by Doctor Doom that those without magic are unable to resist any magic attacks[97], something which he also states here[172]. Also, it is stated here[134] by Doctor Strange that magic attacks can negate magic shields that non-magic attacks cannot, something which is shown when a demon-possessed Wolverine is able to break Strange's mystic shield due to being bathed in demonic magic[173], and is also shown here[174]. Physical blows did nothing to Doctor Strange's magic shield, with the only thing capable of penetrating it being Scarlet Witch's hex blast due to its mystical qualities[175]. The magic of Scarlet Witch's shield let her easily penetrate the shields of an alien ship.[176]

Durability negation looks fine, though I'm iffy about whether this qualifies for resistance negation or not.

• Resistance Negation is the ability to remove an opponent's ability to resist certain effects, allowing the user to then affect them with those abilities. In extreme cases, this ability can even override apparent immunity. However, simply overwhelming something with Hax stronger than what they can resist normally wouldn't qualify.

• Lower-Level and Common Spells and Powers​

• Necromancy: Even adept sorcerers at Strange Academy are taught on how to bring normal people back to life[296], with the art of necromancy viewed as a relatively simple magic to learn.[297]

Just asking for clarification, how consistent is this? Because I know some comics treat resurrecting the dead as a casual ability for certain sorcerers, while others treat the action as a great undertaking that could upset the cosmic balance Mistress Death rules to an extent.

• High-Tier Spells and Powers​

• Further Probability Manipulation: Doctor Strange removed a bad luck hex from Spider-Man.[319]

This looks more like resistance to probability manipulation.

• Up to Low 1-A Power Absorption: Using magic, Doctor Doom absorbed the power of the Life Force, which he described as being far superior to the power of the Beyonder, and was both capable of creating the alternate reality of Earth-58163 (with each reality being Low 1-A in size) and weaving itself into all of existence and reality.

Wouldn't Doom's higher-end Absorption feats be performed through his Power Cosmic Siphon Harness, especially if Doom absorbing the Beyonder is directly referenced?

• Sorcerer Supreme Level​

Looks great!

List of Users who can use each level of Common Magic/Sorcery.​

Looks great too, though I wonder if you're gonna keep this section there now that you've created a separate blog for it.

Balatraan​

Looks great!

Faltine/Dark Dimension Magic and Physiology​

Looks great!

Chaos Magic/Hex Magic​

Looks great!

The Darkhold​

Looks great!

Hellfire and Demonic Magic​

Resistance Negation to Fire Manipulation: A hellfire blast from the Haazareth Three burned the Human Torch despite the latter resisting normal flames (such as his own) with ease.

This looks more like layered fire manipulation.

Weaknesses​

Looks great overall!

 

[Eseseso]

Excellent work! Glad to see it turned out so well!

Thanks, and thank you for your constant support!

Durability negation looks fine, though I'm iffy about whether this qualifies for resistance negation or not.

• Resistance Negation is the ability to remove an opponent's ability to resist certain effects, allowing the user to then affect them with those abilities. In extreme cases, this ability can even override apparent immunity. However, simply overwhelming something with Hax stronger than what they can resist normally wouldn't qualify.

I'll keep it for now since it's shown to bypass resistances (like with Doom's magic telepathy bypassing Susan Storm's resistance to telepathy because of its magic nature as Doom himself states), but I'll see what others say.

Just asking for clarification, how consistent is this? Because I know some comics treat resurrecting the dead as a casual ability for certain sorcerers, while others treat the action as a great undertaking that could upset the cosmic balance Mistress Death rules to an extent.

Marvel Comics has never been the icon of consistency, and you do have a point, especially as necromancy is viewed as the 4th but forbidden school of magic.

Seeing as neither of the low level necromancy feats are combat related (in contrast to other necromancy feats on the page), I'll just add that it's not combat-applicable for low-level sorcerers.

This looks more like resistance to probability manipulation.

Strange removed the bad probability hex from him, so it could just be probability manipulation negation.

Wouldn't Doom's higher-end Absorption feats be performed through his Power Cosmic Siphon Harness, especially if Doom absorbing the Beyonder is directly referenced?

Looking at the story, especially as Doom was using magic to help summon the life force, it seemed to me at the time that he used magic to absorb the Life Force, but you do have a point...

I'll have to think on this.

Looks great too, though I wonder if you're gonna keep this section there now that you've created a separate blog for it.

I will likely remove it eventually, but that was to give a general idea of who gets what level of sorcery.

This looks more like layered fire manipulation.

IIRC Fire Manip doesn't have layers because its potency is based on a numerical value (for example, if your max temperature resistance is 9000 degrees Celsius, a 10000 degree fire would burn you)

 

[Da3ggman]

In-Betweener​

• Immunity to All Magic at the Sorcerer Supreme level (Laughed off all of Doctor Strange's magic attacks, and was only defeated when Strange summoned Lord Chaos and Master Order to overpower him)

Wouldn't the In-Betweener also have Sorcerer Supreme level magic due to "possessing virtually unlimited ability to time, space, matter, and energy; and apparently the entire spectrum of psionic powers"?

(This is from All-New Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe A to Z: Update 1, btw)

 

[Eseseso]

Wouldn't the In-Betweener also have Sorcerer Supreme level magic due to "possessing virtually unlimited ability to time, space, matter, and energy; and apparently the entire spectrum of psionic powers"?

(This is from All-New Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe A to Z: Update 1, btw)

1. Psionic powers on their own don't mean magic, mainly just telepathy

2. Stuff from those handbooks for character P&A is secondary canon and usually needs to be supported by other stuff.

 

[Planck69]

Having gone over a lot of these before, the additions look good to me.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

This looks insanely well researched and comprehensive, good job.

 

[Eseseso]

This looks insanely well researched and comprehensive, good job.

Much appreciated, I started this back in mid-August and, asides from a bit of help from Ultima and Profectus, the research was mostly done on my own, including over 400 issues of the Doctor Strange series alone.

 

[Eseseso]

And btw, the stuff below some of the powers saying that "This is [XXX} in potency" is only if the Low 1-A potency isn't accepted. If it is, I'll remove that stuff.

Tbh I didn't expect Low 1-A potency for magic even though Ultima supported it for magic from the get-go, but as I read more about magic and its significance to the entire cosmology it made more sense to me.

 

[Da3ggman]

1. Psionic powers on their own don't mean magic, mainly just telepathy

Fair enough, though what about him having unlimited control over all energy? Surely that would grant him something.

2. Stuff from those handbooks for character P&A is secondary canon and usually needs to be supported by other stuff.

It's not totally unfounded for him to have some capacity of magical ability, since in Doctor Strange: Master of the Mystic Arts, The Creators used his power in order to conjure the magical Wheel of Change. To quote,

"With the balancing of power of the magus thus eliminated, I set out I search of new prospects- ultimately finding them in a conclave of sorcerers from all times who fancied themselves Creators. With my power backing them, The Creators were able to conjure the Wheel of Change."

Oh btw, in case it wasn't obvious before, I agree with everything else; this is just my psychosis kicking in after reading every comic with he In-Betweener (He's such a ******* bum lmaoooo)

 

[Eseseso]

Fair enough, though what about him having unlimited control over all energy? Surely that would grant him something.

It's not totally unfounded for him to have some capacity of magical ability, since in Doctor Strange: Master of the Mystic Arts, The Creators used his power in order to conjure the magical Wheel of Change. To quote,

"With the balancing of power of the magus thus eliminated, I set out I search of new prospects- ultimately finding them in a conclave of sorcerers from all times who fancied themselves Creators. With my power backing them, The Creators were able to conjure the Wheel of Change."

Oh btw, in case it wasn't obvious before, I agree with everything else; this is just my psychosis kicking in after reading every comic with he In-Betweener (He's such a ******* bum lmaoooo)

In that case I'd say he's definitely at least high tier since he amped the magic of multiple sorcerers, including the skilled magician Stygoro.

 

[Eseseso]

Oh btw, in case it wasn't obvious before, I agree with everything else; this is just my psychosis kicking in after reading every comic with he In-Betweener (He's such a ******* bum lmaoooo)

Tbf, he was utterly stomping Doctor Strange for most of their fight and Strange couldn't even hurt him with his own power, it was just that once Strange called upon Chaos and Order, In-Betweener was like "Wait, time out. GG bro, I was joking" and got stomped.

 

[KLOL506]

@Sir_Ovens @Qawsedf234 @ByAsura @Ultima_Reality @Maverick_Zero_X @DarkDragonMedeus @Elizhaa @Theglassman12 @KingTempest @DemonGodMitchAubin @Emirp sumitpo @LordTracer

 

[Da3ggman]

Tbf, he was utterly stomping Doctor Strange for most of their fight and Strange couldn't even hurt him with his own power, it was just that once Strange called upon Chaos and Order, In-Betweener was like "Wait, time out. GG bro, I was joking" and got stomped.

Nah, that loss is understandable.

It’s him getting shit on by Galactus, base Thanos, and a bunch of black gremlins that I’ve got an issue with.

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

The additions look fine. Nice work with the research.

 

[Elizhaa]

The proposals look fine.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Looks alright.

 

[G33kedzinx]

Ya keep outdoing yourself huh. The blogs looks fine and I’m in agreement with all that’s being suggested but shouldn’t Wiccan also be on the list and have practically all types of magic and resistances? At least in his demiurge form.

 

[Eseseso]

Ya keep outdoing yourself huh. The blogs looks fine and I’m in agreement with all that’s being suggested but shouldn’t Wiccan also be on the list and have practically all types of magic and resistances? At least in his demiurge form.

Yeah he should.

His base will have basic magic at minimum, probably also low-tier.

Demiurge gets all the magic. Literally.

 

[Theglassman12]

Does the abilities that aren't spelled out for us being High 1-B to Low 1-A just 4-D by default or what?

 

[Eseseso]

Does the abilities that aren't spelled out for us being High 1-B to Low 1-A just 4-D by default or what?

They're being proposed as Low 1-A, but in case they were only accepted as 4-D or something else I put those there.

I listed 4D stuff and other stuff that isn't quite Low 1-A in its own section just to show all the evidence behind the higher-dimensional potency of magic.

If Low 1-A potency is accepted (which seems like it is, plus Ultima supported it way back when I was getting started on this thing) then I'll remove them.

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

I saw that you made a slight list of who has magic resistance but will this apply to anyone in Marvel that has magic resistance? Or is there a special requirment? There are many pages of Marvel characters some of which have Magic resistance to some extent, and some have resistance to Hellfire which is also considered Magic. List all users who have resistance direcly or indirecly might be really hard.

So... how is it gonna work?