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Loid Forger vs Arthur Morgan - Spies and Cowboys

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Sooo I'm no sure what the full arguments are for either side, just jumping into this match
From what I've seen Arthur's win con is using deadeye and something that can take Loid out. Loid on his end has an AP advantage by apparently 400x at least. I call into question Arthur's guns being able to do anything against a gap that wide though fire manip and explosives would likely work. Loid's win con is one shotting with practically anything, being able to come up with a plan far quicker and making disguises
 
Like how this was just flipped to try and turn it to dead eye never being addressed, anyways this is just moot.
Yet from what I've seen of your arguments you yourself haven't explained how Loid magically counters Dead-Eye. He's never dealt with anything remotely similar to Dead-Eye.
Also yall are reallh really overstimating regular wildlife stealth feats
Not really, wild life stealth are amongst some of the best. It's nature, much more brutal and requires much more adaptation than life as a human. Big Cats and other stealthy predators have gotten the drop on seasoned outdoorsman who've spent their life in the woods.


Honestly this just seems like you labeling shit as wank due to having no real counter argument. I could just as easily say your wanking Loid's stealth.
 
That's literally what he said and the bullet's don't lock on.
The bullets do get faster, maybe if you read the profile you'd see its accepted as such so keep talking shit anime man.

Speed Amplification and Perception Manipulation (Via Dead Eye, he can momentarily view enemies in slow motion while becoming faster himself. While in this state, he can pinpoint and lock onto vitals for precision hits)


Express rounds and explosive rounds are also going to shoot out with a much higher Velocity than normal rounds because that's HOW they literally work.


Bro doesn't have homing attack the dude is simply focusing where he wants to shoot hence this
Never said he has homing attacks, but they're similar. You can simply focus on a shot to make it follow your enemy buddy.
 
Also just realized, with Dead Eye the bullets won't become any faster, and Loid will still be Supersonic even after speed equalized? Wouldn't he just dodge the bullets with his IR?
I mean I don't really see how Arthur has any advantage or wincon left
Loid isn't dodging shotgun buck shot, explosive rounds or express rounds due to them traveling faster than average bullets while having AoE. Dealsean is inherently wrong when it comes to Dead-Eye not Amping his attack speed, it is literally accepted as such.
 
Not at all how this works, arthur morgan enhancing his perception doesn't suddenly negate Loid's analytical prediction you have literally 0 grounds to make that claim.
Loid's has never dealt with anything like Dead-Eye with his Analytical Prediction so that's a moot point. Arthur himself also has Analytical Prediction and has fought people with that ability before.
and even then as I said that's simply not how that works at all especially not when you consider the fact that when using deadeye he is still focusing on where he wants to shoot before he actually does so,
This is also wrong, Dead-Eye is an auto target abilities with higher levels.
worst even if he is already holding his gun out since he aims it wherever he's focusing before he shoots.
Read above.
Alls to say this is stuff loid can take full advantage of given the scans baken has provided and there's nothing really Arthur morgan can do here realistically.
Yeah no, I don't agree with you there in the slightest. Your argument works by saying Arthur doesn't have a speed amp or that he needs to aim, both of which Dead-Eye is accepted as a speed amp and auto targeting.

While in Dead Eye mode, moving the reticle over an enemy automatically places marks on that specific location. As soon as the fire button is pressed, all of the marked locations will automatically be fired at, even if the opponent has moved behind cover when the sequence started. It is therefore advised to target enemies close to cover first. If Dead Eye is exited without any marks placed, no shots will be fired.


Your really acting as if Loid has some type of Baki level Analytical Prediction.
 
Anyway, Analytical Prediction shouldn't be too much of an issue for Arthur to deal with considering he has a better version of Analytical Prediction than Loid does, which includes things such as setting out highlights the enemy location, slowing down his perception of time, gathering information to find weak spots and has retrocogniton as an added bonus via Eagle-Eye. In terms of how far they can predict, Arthur is capable of reaching near future sight via being able to tell what's gonna happen before action is taken.


There's also really not much stopping Arthur from copying Loid's movement as he copied Dead-Eye just from seeing it used once.



Out of the two Arthur is the only one who can heal himself. If Loid takes damage he's stuck with it, Arthur can heal himself with items.
 
I mean the AP gap is absolutely massive, of it really is 400x... But if everything Gin is saying about the Dead Eye stuff is reliable and can work with things that can harm Loid, while also letting Authur avoid attacks, then I'd say the Cowboy wins.
 
I mean the AP gap is absolutely massive, of it really is 400x... But if everything Gin is saying about the Dead Eye stuff is reliable and can work with things that can harm Loid, while also letting Authur avoid attacks, then I'd say the Cowboy wins.
That's just AP which Loid can't really capitalize on. Loid's durability still gets shot through with guns like the Volcanic Pistol, Express and Explosive rounds or TNT.


Speaking of which I'm pretty sure Arthur has the higher durability via being able to take a stick of dynamite point blank without dying. He can also just heal from any damage whereas the same cannot be said for Loid.
 
That's just AP which Loid can't really capitalize on. Loid's durability still gets shot through with guns like the Volcanic Pistol, Express and Explosive rounds or TNT.
Ah **** not me always thinking AP and durability end up correlating. But, why can't the AP be capitalized upon?
 
Ah **** not me always thinking AP and durability end up correlating. But, why can't the AP be capitalized upon?
He'd need to get in close, which is a terrible idea given Dead-Eye + Shotgun combo with explosive rounds. He'd need to charge Arthur meanwhile Arthur would use dead eye to make Loid seem frozen in time before pumping him with lead.
 
Loid isn't dodging shotgun buck shot, explosive rounds or express rounds due to them traveling faster than average bullets while having AoE. Dealsean is inherently wrong when it comes to Dead-Eye not Amping his attack speed, it is literally accepted as such.
So what u are basically saying is that Arthur starts every fight with Eagle Eye(to negate stealth advantage) and Dead Eye(perception and speed amp) active simultaneously and he always uses a shotgun or explosive rounds in the start of a fight and he can shoot the vital points of his opponent regardless of if the character is 20 meters away and out of his line of sight in the middle of NYC? Also he spams dynamites too?

And all this for a few seconds is enough to win against a character who has the AP and durability advantage, strength advantage, skill advantage, better marksman, better intelligence feats, a better strategist and tactician, arguably better stealth feats than anything Arthur has dealt with, senses and awareness that are enough to let him know he is being targeted and enough distance between them and speed to dodge projectiles from the above mentioned weapons?
I don't know about u but this feels like a huge stretch.
 
So what u are basically saying is that Arthur starts every fight with Eagle Eye(to negate stealth advantage) and Dead Eye(perception and speed amp) active simultaneously and he always uses a shotgun or explosive rounds in the start of a fight and he can shoot the vital points of his opponent regardless of if the character is 20 meters away and out of his line of sight in the middle of NYC? Also he spams dynamites too?
He'll do what he needs to, these are things he's done in the past before. Bombing the **** out of Odriscol camps, spamming Dead Eye and Eagle Eye. These are his most prominent abilities that he uses the most in character. Arthur can't see him? He uses Eagle Eye. Once he sees him he'll quickly activate Dead Eye as per usual. After learning it Arthur every much starts with it, even some missions it even happens automatically.


He's done this for much less, and if Loid's stealth is as impressive as people make it out to be then Arthur isn't gonna hesitate to use Eagle Eye first thing or blow the place up.
And all this for a few seconds is enough to win against a character who has the AP
The AP advantage is moot since Loid can't get to him before Arthur places multiple express or Explosive rounds in his eyes with dead eye.
and durability advantage.
durability is useless whenever Arthur has ammunition and weapons that can one shot him. He isn't surviving tnt, Explosive rounds, fire bombs, or being shot in his vitals such as the eyes which Dead-Eye automatically targets.
strength advantage
Went over this.
skill advantage, better marksman, better intelligence feats.
Loid only has the skill advantage in h2h which won't matter due to the aforementioned reasons. Also no, Loid is absolutely not a better marksman than Arthur. Loid isnt nearly as experienced with firearms as Arthur who's been using them since he was born, can copy abilities such as Dead Eye after only seeing them once and overall has been into vastly more fights than Loid. He's a spy first and foremost, not a combat specialist.


Arthur has been with Dutch's gang since he was a kid, and taught how to use firearms from a very early age. Scales to other prodigies such as John Marston who can also automatically learn an Advanced version of Dead-Eye by seeing it once much like Arthur. Arthur's gunslinging is so impressive the dude can automatically learn an ability that only the most skilled of marksman can obtain through years and years of hard training and Arthur can copy that just by seeing it once. Automatically learning how to master a bow despite never using one before, has mastered every fire arm in the game, can absolutely dog the military, police and much larger gangs with much larger funds for equipment. Able to kill several men using old fashioned mini guns using just a rifle and dead eye, can hunt down the most dangerous apex predators that are rare, which even hunters who've been at it their whole lives couldn't accomplish.
a better strategist and tactician, arguably better stealth feats than anything Arthur has dealt with.
Agreed there but Arthur has counters.

Edit: Disagree with Loid having astronomically better stealth than anything Arthur has ever dealt with. Dude learned first hand from Native American tribes how to silently kill opponents and infiltrate enemy basis. Shit in terms of strategy Arthur scales above the likes of Dutch so him being a better strategist is debate at best.
senses and awareness that are enough to let him know he is being targeted
Scans please because this is cap, Loid has never dealt with anything like Eagle Eye.
and enough distance between them and speed to dodge projectiles from the above mentioned weapons?
AoE. Loid is not avoiding blasts from TnT, Dead-Eye shots, Explosive rounds with AoE and Arthur can limit Loid's room to dodge via fire cocktails to drive him out. After that all it takes is one Dead-Eye in which Arthur will be viewing Loid as completely stagnant and fire multiple rounds where Loid can dodge, assuming Loid even has a way around Dead-Eye's auto target of the vitals such as the head, eyes, lungs all while Arthur's looking at him as if Loid were a snail.
I don't know about u but this feels like a huge stretch.
Ironic huh.
 
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He'll do what he needs to, these are things he's done in the past before. Bombing the **** out of Odriscol camps, spamming Dead Eye and Eagle Eye. These are his most prominent abilities that he uses the most in character. Arthur can't see him? He uses Eagle Eye. Once he sees him he'll quickly activate Dead Eye as per usual. After learning it Arthur every much starts with it, even some missions it even happens automatically.
senses and awareness that are enough to let him know he is being targeted and enough distance between them and speed to dodge projectiles from the above mentioned weapons?
Conveniently ignoring this and the time limit. I see. So he can't do anything without Dead Eye and gets annihilated once time runs out, ok cool.

Loid is absolutely not a better marksman than Arthur. Loid isnt nearly as experienced with firearms as Arthur who's been using them since he was born, sva
Arthur has better feats than when Loid was just playing around? Wow, never knew. Could u show me his feats?
 
Conveniently ignoring this and the time limit.
I didnt ignore it, matter of fact i literally asked you for evidence of Loid ever using stealth mastery on something like Eagle Eye. Both of which lasts 15 seconds, which Arthur can recharge via items.
I see. So he can't do anything without Dead Eye and gets annihilated once time runs out, ok cool.
Read above.
Arthur has better feats than when Loid was just playing around? Wow, never knew. Could u show me his feats?
First of all great job linking shit to YouTube videos that aren't available. Secondly yes, as I've went over above. Loid hasn't spent even a fraction of time that Arthur has actually fighting, copying abilities that only the most skilled can obtain with decades of experience after seeing them used once, said ability allows him to do something Loid cannot via sheer skill, scales to other prodigies, takes out the most skilled gunslinger in his verse, absolutely dogging the military and police on several occasions, fighting against armies of armed men on various occasions, etc.
 
Quite literally all of Arthur's gunslinging feats are vastly above the two gun feats in Loid's profile.
Literally how is this remotely near what Arthur has done? Shooting a bunch of nobodies at a close range making it easier for him to aim?



come get me when Loid can slow down his perception of time to a halt and automatically target vitals, acquired through decades of training then instantly copying that once.
COxgfjD.png



Frankie literally called Loid sloppy in this lmfao.
 
Yet from what I've seen of your arguments you yourself haven't explained how Loid magically counters Dead-Eye. He's never dealt with anything remotely similar to Dead-Eye
Loid doesn't leave behind traces like that and when he does, it's to set up a trap and Loid is more than capable of coming up with traps on the fly in a place like NYC plus Arthur has no way of getting around Loid's Enhanced Senses picking up on him. His Analytical Prediction can let him dodge a sniper that he can't even see and then when he can see someone's hand movements it's even easier for him to dodge and he can keep that up while being fired at from 3 different sources.

Not at all how this works, arthur morgan enhancing his perception doesn't suddenly negate Loid's analytical prediction you have literally 0 grounds to make that claim and even then as I said that's simply not how that works at all especially not when you consider the fact that when using deadeye he is still focusing on where he wants to shoot before he actually does so, worst even if he is already holding his gun out since he aims it wherever he's focusing before he shoots. Alls to say this is stuff loid can take full advantage of given the scans baken has provided and there's nothing really Arthur morgan can do here realistically.
This is also wrong, Dead-Eye is an auto target abilities with higher levels.
Read above.
So weird anyways here's a 10 minute video where you clearly see dude aims wherever he markss before he shoots which would let act with his Analytical Prediction, I know its hard not confusing regular gameplay with how it actually works but essentially arthur is just choosing where he's going to shoot, the bullets themselves aren't locked on, this man doesn't have homing attack.

The bullets do get faster, maybe if you read the profile you'd see its accepted as such so keep talking shit anime man.

Speed Amplification and Perception Manipulation (Via Dead Eye, he can momentarily view enemies in slow motion while becoming faster himself. While in this state, he can pinpoint and lock onto vitals for precision hits)
Nothing here says the bullets go faster and frankly that's a blatant lie💀 cope ans seethe sir
best. It's nature, much more brutal and requires much more adaptation than life as a human. Big Cats and other stealthy predators have gotten the drop on seasoned outdoorsman who've spent their life in the woods.
You clearly don't know real stealth feats then, that's quite literally all this is telling me... you must think Arthur morgan can out stealth batman or solid snake too then💀.

"Seasoned outdoorsmen" like be for real for a second..
Yeah, I don't see any good feats or scans for how potent Eagle Eye is, the best thing I see is on Youtube, we are able to see the basics of the ability (Aka the prints left by animals mentioned by SunDaGamer)

I need to see feats of Arthur being able to spot dudes on par with the Stealth skills of Twilight.
Twilight was able to perfectly disguise himself as a professor and blend in, disguise himself as a Foreign Minister, a convincing disguise of Edgar to the point the guy gave him the sacred files, a convincing disguise of the traitor Wheeler (Only got caught because they didn't have knowledge of the code, yet was still praised for his ability to disguise himself as Wheeler), disguise himself as someone part of the swat team (Mind you this was Loid rushing back to see if Anya was okay), changing his appearance to match a Woman in order to act as a practice date for Franky, Loid's week having him go through various disguises to enter meetings or disguising as a program director and so much more.
The fact that they start no line of sight, Loid will change into a disguise and Arthur has no way to detect where he is and no way in hell Loid will leave a trace behind, guy can sense something bad is gonna happen and he still won't know where it comes from, he might as well be similar to Elliot and Gretchen from Breaking Bad, not knowing that there will be an assassin to hunt them down while they live their lives (Obviously Walt was trolling)

Also I don't see an AP value in Arthur's profile so i assume baseline 9-B for Arthur (15 KJ) vs Loid's 6694 KJ, this is literally a one shot for Loid, all he needs is to stealth him and land one chop to the back and its toast.

Twilight was able to set up traps without the SSS even spotting it and is willing to use anything to his advantage such as in the first chapter, Twilight was able to set up a trap using the items in the room to take down a group of armed men and as stated above, Twilight won't leave a single track for Arthur to even catch unless he wants to in order to lure him into a trap/sneak attack, hell even Loid already has a knack for setting up traps as a kid
Anyways moot
 
Arthur can casually shoot the fuse off of sticks of tnt mid air before they can explode with Dead-Eye.


Arthur can have quick draw duels on top of moving trains without an issue.


At 3:38 he single handily mowed down a squad of agents holding his friend at knife point, head shotting all of them while making sure John wasn't hurt once.


Here's 10 minutes worth of shooting from Arthur. There's a lot more than just that in both Rdr1 and Rdr2, Arthur has the benefit of actual on screen feats and has much more feats in this regard than Loid.
 
Here's 10 minutes worth of shooting from Arthur. There's a lot more than just that in both Rdr1 and Rdr2, Arthur has the benefit of actual on screen feats and has much more feats in this regard than Loid
For one once again proving my point which is always fun to see🙈 he clearly aims and defines where he shoots which is an action loid can clearly use to his advantage with analytical predictions.

Also blatant lie for the second part consider the sheer volume of feats baken has sent. The other feats genuinely don't compare to anything else baken sent skillwise
 
Literally how is this remotely near what Arthur has done? Shooting a bunch of nobodies at a close range making it easier for him to aim?
U mean Arthur has better feats than Loid who can head shot multiple guys behind his back while engaging in CQC on his front? Where are those feats? All I am seeing is standard gunslinging in the front, with his enhanched perception from Dead eye.
First of all great job linking shit to YouTube videos that aren't available.
My bad it was region locked to Asia
 
So weird anyways here's a 10 minute video where you clearly see dude aims wherever he markss before he shoots which would let act with his Analytical Prediction, I know its hard not confusing regular gameplay with how it actually works but essentially arthur is just choosing where he's going to shoot, the bullets themselves aren't locked on, this man doesn't have homing attack.
And here's a 1 min video that shows all the abilities from each level of Dead-Eye, not just one.

Don't put words in my mouth, I never said he did. I said he has similar methods, big difference.
Nothing here says the bullets go faster and frankly that's a blatant lie💀 cope ans seethe sir
DaleSean I suggest you take a look at how difference caliber rounds actually work in real life. Express rounds are quite literally self fulfilling, they're faster and cause more damage than regular rounds. They're the upgraded version of High Velocity rounds, and Explosive rounds are the upgraded version of Express rounds.

You're a calculation team member so quite frankly it's speaking magnitudes that you couldn't understand that difference bullets have difference muscle Velocity. Ultimately i suggest you actually take your own advice there, "cope and seethe sir."
You clearly don't know real stealth feats then.
Unlike you i've literally been hunting before. Its what us canook's are good at mate, but yeah no since you're apparently agent 47 and know so much about stealth then you can tell me what good stealth is.
that's quite literally all this is telling me... you must think Arthur morgan can out stealth batman or solid snake too then💀.
I never said that. You seriously need to grow the hell up buddy, now your just blatantly strawmaning for the sake of it. As a staff member it makes you look very much too immature for any position here.
"Seasoned outdoorsmen" like be for real for a second..
Read above.
Anyways moot
10/10 argument. Strawmaning is all you got.
 
For one once again proving my point which is always fun to see🙈 he clearly aims and defines where he shoots which is an action loid can clearly use to his advantage with analytical predictions.
Nobody is proving your point you buttered crumpet.
Also blatant lie for the second part consider the sheer volume of feats baken has sent.
Hardly a lie, whenever you arent even explaining why Loid has better feats.
The other feats genuinely don't compare to anything else baken sent skillwise
Yeah bullshit. Show me Loid slowing down his perception of time and copying shit others need years to master after seeing it done once.
 
U mean Arthur has better feats than Loid who can head shot multiple guys behind his back while engaging in CQC on his front?
He kicked a few of them and then shot two nobodies behind him. That pales in comparison to dogging the military and police on several occasions, copying Dead-Eye immediately, out skilling the most skill gunglingers of the verse and is the best quick drawer in the video games. Arthur has much better and many more gun feats than Loid, you can look up the literal hours worth of actual feats he has in comparison to Loid's two, one of which is absolutely shit. Shooting two rando's isn't impressive especially whenever it was notes as sloppy.
Where are those feats? All I am seeing is standard gunslinging in the front, with his enhanched perception from Dead eye.
Quick drawing IS a skill feat. He's outskilling people who've been doing this for years undefeated.
My bad it was region locked to Asia
K.
 
DaleSean I suggest you take a look at how difference caliber rounds actually work in real life. Express rounds are quite literally self fulfilling, they're faster and cause more damage than regular rounds. They're the upgraded version of High Velocity rounds, and Explosive rounds are the upgraded version of Express rounds.

You're a calculation team member so quite frankly it's speaking magnitudes that you couldn't understand that difference bullets have difference muscle Velocity. Ultimately i suggest you actually take your own advice there, "cope and seethe sir."
Buddy he ain't personally speeding those up and while you're trying to make a point as silly as it is if you want me to act like a CGM here then I can and frankly the speed ratings for the verse are in complete shambles and are filled with blatant lies which I was planning to revise anyways and dipshit if they're both supersonic then it makes Arthurs use of these munitions at any range null and void when if even at 2m range loid can move 1m before Arthur's fastest weapon can move 2. That's point blank range damn near so you're already cooked with this and the guns are void in this fight.


Don't put words in my mouth, I never said he did. I said he has similar methods, big difference.
Most certainly did
Unlike you i've literally been hunting before. Its what us canook's are good at mate, but yeah no since you're apparently agent 47 and know so much about stealth then you can tell me what good stealth is.
Great history lesson doesn't mean shit to stealth do good you develop an actual supernature ability to sense people 🤷
10/10 argument.
Thanks ;)
 
Buddy he ain't personally speeding those up.
I never said he was? Again reading comprehension clearly ain't ya thing. I said the bullets will travel faster, which is true.
and while you're trying to make a point as silly as it is if you want me to act like a CGM here then I can and frankly the speed ratings for the verse are in complete shambles and are filled with blatant lies which I was planning to revise anyways.
Cool, then do it. I don't care much for words.
and dipshit if they're both supersonic then it makes Arthurs use of these munitions at any range null and void when if even at 2m range loid can move 1m before Arthur's fastest weapon can move 2.
First of all, calm the **** down. Your out here calling people dipshits getting emotional for no damn reason. And no not really, the speed is equalized between them not attack speed.
That's point blank range damn near so you're already cooked with this and the guns are void in this fight.
Which makes shit worse for Loid given Arthur's AoE.
Most certainly did
Literally did not but whatever.
Great history lesson doesn't mean shit to stealth do good you develop an actual supernature ability to sense people 🤷
Loid's senses arent supernatural lmfao. He isnt Agent 47 dawg.
Bro uses so many emoji's got me thinking he's like 12.
 
Yeah nah I'm not doing this right now. Dude barged back into this thread acting condescending as all hell so he can have fun on the RVR thread because acting like that is definitely a violation.
 
dale's messages are getting shorter and shorter each time that means gin is winning this debate according to my calculations
Nah there's just not much to be said since anyone who cares to actually read what anyone has said before from the replies I bumled clearly see the man is spitting straight bs
Yeah bullshit. Show me Loid slowing down his perception of time and copying shit others need years to master after seeing it done once.
Geez I wonder how he got Accelerated development and photographic memory, or how he instantly learned sumo wrestling at the professional level.
And no not really, the speed is equalized between them not attack speed.
Guess what their attack speed is supersonic and they're both equalized to supersonic and I easily explained it to ya as a CGM don't fall behind now, this one is simple.
Which makes shit worse for Loid given Arthur's AoE
Eh Loid outstats and still the same speed problem persist at supersonic speeds they can both get away from standard shotgun shells at point blank range or dynamite before it blows
Loid's senses arent supernatural lmfao. He isnt Agent 47 dawg.
Baken literally has sent several scans of loid sensing others presence but okay👍
 
Your responses are far from the best though. Things need to be more civil, aight?
Nah I'll always have no qualms calling bs how I see it and frankly if this level of opposition and silly jabs is report worthy then half of the wiki would be under by now, I can tone it down a bit but review yourself and make your own decisions
 
Nah I'll always have no qualms calling bs how I see it and frankly if this level of opposition and silly jabs is report worthy then half of the wiki would be under by now, I can tone it down a bit but review yourself and make your own decisions
wtf i have never seen u act like this before

bro is showing his true colors
 
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