Lookism Discussion Thread

[Powerscalingcat]

I mean you can also add conceptual manp, yk

But on a serious note, why is that still there? I thought it would be long gone since Ul Daniel's Fl is also removed.

Wait why did it get removed lol

What justifies whether or not a character has or does not have fear inducing?

 

[Sigmagoon14]

Wait why did it get removed lol

What justifies whether or not a character has or does not have fear inducing?

I don't really know that much in detail, but Ul Daniel's fear manipulation was more of fear instigating via social influence, since fear manipulation needs supernatural showcasing. The best example I can give is RQ's aura affecting its surroundings, even abiotic things like flickering lights, or Peter from KP,he just gazed at fodder and fodder hallucinated that he died like a thousand times.

 

[Viott]

Yeah this one, isn't this accepted?

Yes, I forgot about that.

 

[CatLover313]

Wait why did it get removed lol

What justifies whether or not a character has or does not have fear inducing?

There is a thread going on about Fear Hax, specifically fear-inducing abilities. Technically it hasn't been finished yet (more than likely will be accepted though) and I've seen some profiles switch their abilities already. Fear-Inducing abilities "is regularly just supernatural intimidation aka Social Influencing" and moreso based off the character's strength, looks, status, etc rather than actually being fear hax (which works regardless of strength typically). So more examples like this (i.e. UI Daniel's or Yu in Boxer) will be classified as Intimidation based off Social Influencing as they just scare/intimidate other's while other Fear Hax will be more "supernatural-ish" (I've seen stuff like if it effects the environment itself or can cause illusions, it counts as actual fear hax) and still be fine. This is also important as you can put "layers" on real Fear Hax but not on "Social Influencing". Did my best to explain this, not too heavily invested in Fear Hax stuff though and did my best to explain it seeing and reading how it's been changed.

 

[Pyro9278]

Normally, Fear Hax requires superhuman willpower. Fear induction via social influence is simply experiencing natural fear (more or less exaggerated in fiction) and requires only conventional or comparable willpower or effort to overcome.

In the case of Daniel UI, and generally throughout the verse, it's SI instead of Fear Hax. The curious thing is that Lookism's SI, although it doesn't have layers (which aren't allowed), due to things like mastery, might be able to overcome even those with superhuman willpower.

 

[Keshirou]

Somehow Im not getting notifications from this thread.

In the case of Daniel UI, and generally throughout the verse, it's SI instead of Fear Hax.

Agreed. Remember 4 crews meeting? Everyone (who fought UI Daniel) was scared of Daniel, even though he wasnt in UI. Basically social influencing.

 

[Pyro9278]

Since everyone thinks the Military Trio is H8C, I had a question about it. Wouldn't that upgrade the entire verse's current cap because of the CQC multiplier? Like 2.22 tons would become 6.66 tons, and even for speed, Rolex Goo's feat would also get 3x amp, right? Since Jincheol was still in his base and didn't use CQC at all?
Damn, 6.66 tons and 2,195.973 m/s upgrade?

Technically, yes, I actually already had that in mind, but something was giving me pause for some reason. Are we supposed to multiply Goo's feat by 3x directly and scale it to its base? If so, we know that Gun, Tom, and basically all the top tiers scale. However, it's also a bit confusing because then Goo would be surpassing Jincheol by a wide margin, unless we scale the CQC multiplier to its base.

Btw, this should only be a speed improvement. I don't think we can apply it to AP.

 

[Powerscalingcat]

We don’t know how long he’s training for, but it’s def not complete yet. He’d have his white workers jacket for completion, but mid-training is fair to assume. Though that just makes it even harder to compare tbh

I know this is old but I was rereading both series in preparation for making an upgraded version of my chainscale for vswiki (one that is in accordance to vswiki standards and is actually eligible and not a ginormous wall of text lmao)

So I wanted to have an 'uhm achually' moment

Jin Jang was shown in a flashback(?) during 3A as already being a workers 4A executive (he has a badge + the black workers suit)

We also see in the hostel epilogue that Eugene sends Yuseong to integrate K-House into the workers and they offer Jin Jang a golden workers badge (executive) however we don't see Jin Jang during 4A and then we have a follow up at the end of 4A where Samuel now the CEO of 4A starts training Jin Jang who is wearing the same outfit as in the hostel epilogue and all his prior apperances

In questism he isn't wearing a suit but rather his hostel epilogue (and prior) era outfit

So I think on a low end this is either post workers epilogue (so pre training) or mid training like you said)

Honestly? Given the narrative scaling of being the top dog of a high school and small gang leaders(Jin Jang level) / being able to wipe out a small gang on your own are all around A/A+ (at least in Gangbuk, Gian High, Potato high and whatever high-school that idol gangster was top dog of are all bums for some reason)

I think I lean more towards pre training Jin Jang or if it is mid training the stat increase wouldn't be all that large (from A -> A+)

Though you can just have a low end and high end(+1 tier compared to the low end)

Anyhow sorry for the ramble just wanted to get this out of my system and write my thoughts out lol

 

[Sigmagoon14]

Technically, yes, I actually already had that in mind, but something was giving me pause for some reason. Are we supposed to multiply Goo's feat by 3x directly and scale it to its base? If so, we know that Gun, Tom, and basically all the top tiers scale. However, it's also a bit confusing because then Goo would be surpassing Jincheol by a wide margin, unless we scale the CQC multiplier to its base

I think the safest option is we should scale that to 4 Moonlight Goo because 4 Moonlight Goo should be relative to Tom and 100% Patch Hansu, which directly leads to him being above S1 Jincheol. Also, if we don't scale the multiplier to Goo, Jincheol would be like the fastest dawg in the verse, since without the multiplier he was able to react to Goo.

So the safest scaling I see:
Goo in his base (or with random items)/Base Jincheol = 731 m/s
Goo 4 Moonlight/CQC Jincheol = 2,195.973 m/s
And Goo 50 Moonlight is just higher than 2,195.973 m/s, since after the 4th every step just makes him faster.

Btw, this should only be a speed improvement. I don't think we can apply it to AP.

Actually, I think we should scale AP too since that thread also includes AP in Multiplier. Because if SMK has H8C scaling, then he would scale above Tom by CQC multiplier.

 

[CatLover313]

Just saw the Church Feat was finally evaluated and accepted (viott's). Though it was added to the verse page, doesn't it need a CRT first though (for who it applies to)?

 

[Pyro9278]

Just saw the Church Feat was finally evaluated and accepted (viott's). Though it was added to the verse page, doesn't it need a CRT first though (for who it applies to)?

Yes. It should be, however, if a thread is opened it should only be with the CGM and not with other members since they are a bit... problematic.

I think the safest option is we should scale that to 4 Moonlight Goo because 4 Moonlight Goo should be relative to Tom and 100% Patch Hansu, which directly leads to him being above S1 Jincheol. Also, if we don't scale the multiplier to Goo, Jincheol would be like the fastest dawg in the verse, since without the multiplier he was able to react to Goo.

So the safest scaling I see:
Goo in his base (or with random items)/Base Jincheol = 731 m/s
Goo 4 Moonlight/CQC Jincheol = 2,195.973 m/s
And Goo 50 Moonlight is just higher than 2,195.973 m/s, since after the 4th every step just makes him faster.

Actually, I think we should scale AP too since that thread also includes AP in Multiplier. Because if SMK has H8C scaling, then he would scale above Tom by CQC multiplier.

I think I know how to structure it. I think we could have three keys for Goo:

Youth Goo (At least Subsonic+) | BoS Goo (At least Supersonic) | Current Goo (At least Hypersonic, higher)

I think this makes more sense since we overcomplicate things by assuming that MK Goo = Current Goo.

Now, regarding the AP scale. Due to the way CQC works, the military trio isn't actually H8C+ all the time; they only have it when using CQC. It should be at that level momentarily, and considering that the gap isn't large enough and is only momentary, I think it could be scaled like this.

 

[CatLover313]

Yes. It should be, however, if a thread is opened it should only be with the CGM and not with other members since they are a bit... problematic.

Can't wait for the thread to become 3 pages long in under 24 hours

 

[Powerscalingcat]

King should easily be High 8-C; I think he's the most blatant proof that he's comparable to Tom Lee. Comparable, not superior. Later on, characters like Jincheol, Hansu, and Manager Kim could scale to High 8-C, though at a lower scale.

I know you say comparable and on a lower scale etc

But there is QUITE a difference between High 8-C Tom (HFW) and the Tom that was beating King's ass
HFW Tom was:
-was in Ultimate King mode (which he stated he hadn't used in 3 years up until 1A, where he made his return as ultimate King, and in HFW stated that compared to Jinyoung he was still active meaning he probably regained a bit of his prime strenght post 1A to explain the comically large power up)
-bloodlusted
-using animal instinct
-AMP by Miss Kim being in danger (which would be an even bigger power up compared to the letter stuff)
-using a 4T unique skill (base full power < 2T unique skill < 3T unique skill < 4T unique skill)
-was breaking his body down to perform the feat meaning he was literally exceeding his limits

I really dislike x character is y tier and z character was able to somewhat fight against them even though they were heldback/debuffed therfore z character is also y tier especially since the story made it very clear that that Tom had gotten a power up (or in this case was less 'debuffed' compared to earlier in the story or both)

Because then is 3A Johan High 8-C for making a heldback Tom bleed through his nose? (Obv internal damage or damaging areas like the nose that can't be trained doesn't count etc etc but you get the point right?)

Or 15/16 year old Goo/Gun who fought against a heldback Tom? (Arguably less held back than against Johan)

Especially since King even after pushing his limits using the super solider serum to temporarily overwhelm Tom was surprised and wondered if none of his attacks went through, we have seen in 1A against Taejin that Tom is also a 'holdsback man' and will constantly keep adjusting his punches slightly higher (mind you Taejin was able to stall him long enough for Goo to get a sword and have a full on conversation, should we also scale Taejin to High-8C for somewhat holding out against Tom who was already exerting himself quite a bit against Goo pre sword?)

My issue is that this can VERY quickly escalate into EVERYONE scaling to High-8C when the intial Gap gate feat happened, especially since how do we determine when Tom is and isn't using large building levels of power?

I think most of the MK cast can easily scale from small building+ to building level but even low large building is pushing it imo for whatever that's worth

 

[Sigmagoon14]

Now, regarding the AP scale. Due to the way CQC works, the military trio isn't actually H8C+ all the time; they only have it when using CQC. It should be at that level momentarily, and considering that the gap isn't large enough and is only momentary, I think it could be scaled like this.

Yeah, but there are instances where even while using CQC they got damaged. For example, during the interview, Manager Kim was using CQC yet Tom struck him so badly that his arm was barely usable despite taking hits from CQC.

Another one is Closer being able to damage Kim even when he used Whitenight Moonrise CQC.

And the biggest point is Hansu, who is strongest by a margin. He scales above Jincheol (Warmode) and SMK’s multiplier because in the fight against Woocheol, the other two could barely do any damage with CQC. They both needed Original CQC and Warmode Phase 2 to take the final stance, while Hansu only used his legendary beasts without Personality Patch. (That’s the main reason I think Hansu scales above both and may other portrayals) while 100% PP Hansu is equal to King who is below FP Tom.

So yeah, if we’re going H8C SMK, then I don’t think the multipliers of AP should be limited to just the Military dads because even while using CQC we have seen them taking damage.

 

[Powerscalingcat]

I think the safest option is we should scale that to 4 Moonlight Goo because 4 Moonlight Goo should be relative to Tom and 100% Patch Hansu, which directly leads to him being above S1 Jincheol. Also, if we don't scale the multiplier to Goo, Jincheol would be like the fastest dawg in the verse, since without the multiplier he was able to react to Goo.

So the safest scaling I see:
Goo in his base (or with random items)/Base Jincheol = 731 m/s
Goo 4 Moonlight/CQC Jincheol = 2,195.973 m/s
And Goo 50 Moonlight is just higher than 2,195.973 m/s, since after the 4th every step just makes him faster.

Actually, I think we should scale AP too since that thread also includes AP in Multiplier. Because if SMK has H8C scaling, then he would scale above Tom by CQC multiplier.

I feel like this chain scaling falls apart in Incheon because path Daniel has a calc speed feat of 700~ m/s (or slightly above mach 2)

If we say that 4 moonlight Goo scales to 2100m/s that's the same Goo that Pacheon blocked all the strikes off and called him weak meaning Pacheon would scale above the 2100m/s speed, same Pacheon that got perception blizted by a Daniel that is supposedly 3x slower than a fighter he deemed 'weak'

(We also have Incheon Goo implying he can use any weapon including a whip at sonic speeds with Pacheon directly stating Goo would need more than sound to beat him, this was strike 1 Goo, strike 2 Goo is the one that uses moonlight 1 to 4 which is when he becomes supersonic imo because Pacheon called him weak but was glazing Daniel as someone he could never defeat, it wasn't until moonlight sword 5 and up that Pacheon started to treat Goo the same way he treated Daniel and even then at first he was in denial lol)

You can argue that path Daniel also scales that speed or is even faster etc

Especially since MK in S2 (which is directly stated to be way stronger than his S1 self) using white knight CQC (which is stronger than normal CQC by a comical margin according to the series itself) was calc'd nearly 2x LESS than Goo's feat against Jincheol

 

[Pyro9278]

I'll reply later, I'm at university, but really the only difference between Tom MK and Tom HFW are the amplifiers, I don't understand the point of saying they are different keys.

 

[Sigmagoon14]

I feel like this chain scaling falls apart in Incheon because path Daniel has a calc speed feat of 700~ m/s (or slightly above mach 2)

If we say that 4 moonlight Goo scales to 2100m/s that's the same Goo that Pacheon blocked all the strikes off and called him weak meaning Pacheon would scale above the 2100m/s speed, same Pacheon that got perception blizted by a Daniel that is supposedly 3x slower than a fighter he deemed 'weak'

(We also have Incheon Goo implying he can use any weapon including a whip at sonic speeds with Pacheon directly stating Goo would need more than sound to beat him, this was strike 1 Goo, strike 2 Goo is the one that uses moonlight 1 to 4)

You can argue that path Daniel also scales that speed or is even faster etc

I don’t think we should call it falling apart, it’s more of powercliffing.

Yeah, I believe Pathaniel should easily be scalable because the other party are also top tiers who are holding back. It’s not like the Lineman feat where Lineman was hell tiers below Paecheon and Pathaniel. Another point is Paecheon has shown to be stronger than Tom, who is like Gun of Manager Kim manhwa during his season 1 run, and Pathaniel blitzing Paecheon already puts him above Tom, who easily scales to that multiplier because of chain scaling.
And just because the top tier performed a feat that scales lower compared to the other top tiers doesn’t mean he shouldn’t be able to scale to that bigger feat. It’s like saying TUI Gun shouldn’t be able to scale to Old Gap’s feat because he performed small building level feat at his FP, despite we have chain scaling why he should scale to Gap’s feat.

It’s the same with Pathaniel because just because he performed a Mach 2 feat against some random doesn’t mean it’s his limit, because by chain scaling he is above Hwarang Paecheon too, by Paecheon’s own statment.

 

[Powerscalingcat]

I'll reply later, I'm at university, but really the only difference between Tom MK and Tom HFW are the amplifiers, I don't understand the point of saying they are different keys.

Oh sorry if I bothered you during uni, feel free to reply whenever you are

Also sorry if I didn't convey my point clearly. I don't think they are different keys (since Tom isn't getting stronger rather less weaker than he used to be lol)

More so that the difference between the power he used against King and James in my eyes is too large for the MK cast to scale to large building(or heck even anyone pre HFW) even if by a tiny margin. I can see why people would think that, my issue is that imo even using narrative scaling like statements and portryal its still too unclear to concretely conclude that Tom was using large building levels of power against King. I already wrote out a list of all the different factors between how much more serious Tom was in HFW compared to MK so I won't go over them again as to keep this message short so I'll just try to summarize my issue

The difference in factors and narrative tone between the 2 fights in my eyes at least is too large for me to agree that Tom was using large building levels of power against king, as the way I interpreted it Tom had to both push his body past his limits AND use 4T unique skill to achieve that level of power.

Ik I am not a CGM or a thread admin etc so my opinion has no weight, I am just stating it because I deem it an important enough issue to raise and address, I hope it doesn't come off as too aggresive/argumentative on my end lol

 

[LegendariumOfLies]

Just saw the Church Feat was finally evaluated and accepted (viott's). Though it was added to the verse page, doesn't it need a CRT first though (for who it applies to)?

You can add things to a verse page but to apply them you need a CRT.

 

[Powerscalingcat]

I don’t think we should call it falling apart, it’s more of powercliffing.

Yeah, I believe Pathaniel should easily be scalable because the other party are also top tiers who are holding back. It’s not like the Lineman feat where Lineman was hell tiers below Paecheon and Pathaniel. Another point is Paecheon has shown to be stronger than Tom, who is like Gun of Manager Kim manhwa during his season 1 run, and Pathaniel blitzing Paecheon already puts him above Tom, who easily scales to that multiplier because of chain scaling.
And just because the top tier performed a feat that scales lower compared to the other top tiers doesn’t mean he shouldn’t be able to scale to that bigger feat. It’s like saying TUI Gun shouldn’t be able to scale to Old Gap’s feat because he performed small building level feat at his FP, despite we have chain scaling why he should scale to Gap’s feat.

It’s the same with Pathaniel because just because he performed a Mach 2 feat against some random doesn’t mean it’s his limit, because by chain scaling he is above Hwarang Paecheon too, by Paecheon’s own statment.

To summarize my 2 big issues with this:
We are using a feat performed in another verse(Goo's feat in MK) + a power system from another verse (CQC from MK, I know they are in the same shared verse dw) to massively upscale the top tiers of lookism WAY beyond the current highest calca for both speed AND AP (CQC military dads would scale ABOVE the current highest AP feat in the verse which might get divided in 2 since it was performed by 2 people meaning the CQC military dad trio could scale over 2x the current highest calc in the verse when their highest calc is barely small building level) the same applies for speed (CQC military dads would scale 3x above the highest calc speed feat in the verse)

And this without me getting into the insane amount of upscales this would give EVERY single top tier in the verse

I know sometimes narrative scaling can take precedent over calc scaling, but it USUALLY needs to be consistent with calc scaling, and in this case we are proposing to use the narrative scaling of a single fight (Jincheol vs Goo) and the way CQC works to MASSIVELY upscale pretty much every single verse (Lookism, questism, HTF)

You can argue its just power creep and power cliffing sure but we are essentially arguing that this old feat/calc performed by a pretty casual Goo over 3+ years ago (irl time) holds more narrative significance than the current feats and calcs we have (like the recently accepted 6 ton cathedral calc, which according to this chain scale CQC S1 Jincheol would scale ABOVE the clash of TWO top tier path users) same goes with speed (though I do agree with you that path Daniel's speed against Pacheon could be higher)

The reason I brought up the speed of sound statment that Goo mentioned while using the bike chain whip is because a much more casual version of both Goo AND Pacheon perception blizted Jageyon before using the bike chain whip. Which would be weird if the whole cast by that point is already supersonic or even hypersonic (considering that per this chain scale Pacheon while not going all out would view hypersonic speeds as 'weak')

You can argue on how I am interpreting the statment, but the way I see it PTJ would and could have worded it way differently if he was trying to imply that Goo is hypersonic or above (to be clear not saying that Goo is capped at sonic speeds or anything, the statment is clearly meant to imply that unlike normal humans Goo can swing ANY weapon at sonic speeds WITHOUT using moonlight which is still insane, but the fact that the speed of sound is still a narrative comparison point that the author feels is important enough to have Goo make a cocky statment about it and have Pacheon make a statment of his own that Goo would need MORE than sound to beat him, to me clearly indicates that the author is trying to tell the audience that both Goo AND Pacheon are supersonic rather than hypersonic or higher)

TLDR: Narrative power cliffing is doing a LOT of work here because the proposed chain scaling would massively affect the verse in ways that are not supported by any other form of scaling (feats, calcs, statments etc)

 

[Viott]

You can argue on how I am interpreting the statment, but the way I see it PTJ would and could have worded it way differently if he was trying to imply that Goo is hypersonic or above (to be clear not saying that Goo is capped at sonic speeds or anything, the statment is clearly meant to imply that unlike normal humans Goo can swing ANY weapon at sonic speeds WITHOUT using moonlight which is still insane, but the fact that the speed of sound is still a narrative comparison point that the author feels is important enough to have Goo make a cocky statment about it and have Pacheon make a statment of his own that Goo would need MORE than sound to beat him, to me clearly indicates that the author is trying to tell the audience that both Goo AND Pacheon are supersonic rather than hypersonic or higher)

You're just making assumptions. Goo wasn't even being serious when moving at the speed of sound. And Pancheon could easily react to it. Therefore, it wouldn't be a problem for the character to have Hypersonic speed or higher. There's nothing indicating that they're at most Supersonic speed.

 

[Viott]

Just saw the Church Feat was finally evaluated and accepted (viott's). Though it was added to the verse page, doesn't it need a CRT first though (for who it applies to)?

I don't have time to open a CRT. Someone else can open it.

 

[CatLover313]

I don't have time to open a CRT. Someone else can open it.

Probs make one tomorrow. Just gotta get the scans.

 

[Viott]

Let’s not open a CRT for now.

 

[CatLover313]

Yeah… CGD will likely be made. I’ll have to clarify some stuff on there. Guess I can’t take the easy way out

 

[Sigmagoon14]

the current highest AP feat in the verse which might get divided in 2 since it was performed by 2 people meaning

Actually no, it would scale to both of them since both of them endured the clash with no damage.
(If I am right)

I know sometimes narrative scaling can take precedent over calc scaling, but it USUALLY needs to be consistent with calc scaling, and in this case we are proposing to use the narrative scaling of a single fight (Jincheol vs Goo) and the way CQC works to MASSIVELY upscale pretty much every single verse (Lookism, questism, HTF)

We had a High 8-C feat performed by Old Dust-eating Gap, and it wasn't even from a fight, so using a feat from a single fight where both characters are top tiers and holding back isn't really inconsistent or a bad option to not use entirely.

we have (like the recently accepted 6 ton cathedral calc, which according to this chain scale CQC S1 Jincheol would scale ABOVE the clash of TWO top tier path users

Why are you acting like this chain scaling is from Baek XX,SMK has the closest chain scaling to Lookism, and if Jincheol from S1 has multiplier scaling, meaning Old Tom would also get to scale to that multiplier, meaning eventually James and Kitae are going to scale to that multiplier. So I don't think Jincheol is going to be above current top tiers.

to me clearly indicates that the author is trying to tell the audience that both Goo AND Pacheon are supersonic rather than hypersonic or higher)

Big assumption on some random fact which has barely any ground, and Paecheon's reply can be interpreted as anything above SoS.
And Paecheon blitzing Jae is more of Paecheon trying to kill him, while against Goo he was giving chances so Goo would fight seriously. Also, if I remember correctly, wasn't Daniel able to perceive that Paecheon was behind Goo and so Daniel tried to warn him?

 

[Powerscalingcat]

You're just making assumptions. Goo wasn't even being serious when moving at the speed of sound. And Pancheon could easily react to it. Therefore, it wouldn't be a problem for the character to have Hypersonic speed or higher. There's nothing indicating that they're at most Supersonic speed.

Fair enough (both to what you and Sig said) however my point still stands that it is a MASSIVE upscale for literally the entire verse that isn't concretely supported by calcs, feats, statments etc

 

[Viott]

Fair enough (both to what you and Sig said) however my point still stands that it is a MASSIVE upscale for literally the entire verse that isn't concretely supported by calcs, feats, statments etc

Why?

 

[Pyro9278]

Yeah, but there are instances where even while using CQC they got damaged. For example, during the interview, Manager Kim was using CQC yet Tom struck him so badly that his arm was barely usable despite taking hits from CQC.

Another one is Closer being able to damage Kim even when he used Whitenight Moonrise CQC.

And the biggest point is Hansu, who is strongest by a margin. He scales above Jincheol (Warmode) and SMK’s multiplier because in the fight against Woocheol, the other two could barely do any damage with CQC. They both needed Original CQC and Warmode Phase 2 to take the final stance, while Hansu only used his legendary beasts without Personality Patch. (That’s the main reason I think Hansu scales above both and may other portrayals) while 100% PP Hansu is equal to King who is below FP Tom.

So yeah, if we’re going H8C SMK, then I don’t think the multipliers of AP should be limited to just the Military dads because even while using CQC we have seen them taking damage.

The CQC isn't scaling up to durability, which is why Tom can still damage it like that.

Hansu showing better performance than Jincheol and SMK doesn't automatically make them superior. Isn't he even using an amplifier?

 

[Pyro9278]

Fair enough (both to what you and Sig said) however my point still stands that it is a MASSIVE upscale for literally the entire verse that isn't concretely supported by calcs, feats, statments etc

Since MK we've had supersonic speeds, like SMK cutting a bullet and Goo cutting a gun, which are feats that count at higher levels, while even higher levels would scale to hypersonic by applying a multiplier to that same feat. It's already established that the higher levels of the verse are supersonic; the fact that they're higher than that, like hypersonic, and that a smaller group of characters, like the god levels, simply doesn't change or affect the narrative, nor does it contradict much.

 

[Powerscalingcat]

Actually no, it would scale to both of them since both of them endured the clash with no damage.
(If I am right)

Fair enough

We had a High 8-C feat performed by Old Dust-eating Gap, and it wasn't even from a fight, so using a feat from a single fight where both characters are top tiers and holding back isn't really inconsistent or a bad option to not use entirely.

That same Gap was being used to compare both full power Tom AND James both of which are top tiers, if old Gap was some low tier fodder that everyone had narratively power crept sure but James literally had to use his path against a Tom he compared to that version of Gap, and so did Tom lol
Both James, Tom and by proxy the old Gap that performed the 2 ton feat should scale above the military dads which if anything supports my point as a version of Tom that is MUCH more powerful than the military dads was directly compared to a Gap that performed a feat 3x weaker than what the military dads would scale to using the CQC + scaling to Tom logic (Old Gap's gate feat is 2 tons, CQC military dads would be 6.66 tons, even though they scale below full power Tom who scales to that Old Gap or a tier above him) Tom and James at least have concrete narrative, statments and actual feats to back up them scaling to and now ABOVE old Gap

Why are you acting like this chain scaling is from Baek XX,SMK has the closest chain scaling to Lookism, and if Jincheol from S1 has multiplier scaling, meaning Old Tom would also get to scale to that multiplier, meaning eventually James and Kitae are going to scale to that multiplier. So I don't think Jincheol is going to be above current top tiers.

I get that the top tiers of lookism would also get upscaled I mentioned that in my previous post, and that's literally my issue with it lol

It would end up with the top tiers scaling massively above THEIR OWN FEATS AT FULL POWER

Obviously AP ≠ DC and PTJ doesn't take actual TNT values into account when he draws Kitae and James blowing up a cathedral, but WE do. And my point is that its not internally consistent with our own calcs, we have Kitae and James AT full power with their path scaling to 6 tons of tnt, the whole point of that exchange is to show us how strong they are when they use their paths, the "AP ≠ DC" argument goes out the window because the whole point of that feat is to show us how high their DC and thus AP is, the whole point of DC feats is to establish character AP so you can't just say that PTJ didn't accurately portray the scale of the AP because the whole point of that feat IS to establish the scale of their AP in the first place.


I know MK has the closest scaling to lookism but I'd argue that lookism itself has an even closer scaling to lookism than MK does lol.
So why is that we are deeming a chain scale from another series (which mind you is also based on an assumption of how CQC works and it's exact multiplier) MORE important than the ACTUAL feats performed by the top tiers that are going to get upscaled by this? I don't see any other reason other than the fact that it would just massively upscale the verse.

Big assumption on some random fact which has barely any ground, and Paecheon's reply can be interpreted as anything above SoS.
And Paecheon blitzing Jae is more of Paecheon trying to kill him, while against Goo he was giving chances so Goo would fight seriously. Also, if I remember correctly, wasn't Daniel able to perceive that Paecheon was behind Goo and so Daniel tried to warn him?

Again fair enough

But I'd like to point that at least to me assuming that the military dads scale to large building level and 3x higher with CQC is just as much of a big assumption based on a fact that has any ground (as all of that hinges on assuming that Tom Lee used large building levels of power on King, when there is FAR more evidence to the contrary that I already listed out, like for eg the fact that Tom needed like 30 (figuratively not literally) buffs and amps and had to literally push his body past its limits to the point of it starting to break down in order to reach large buikding level) and that you can just as easily interpret the military dads to scale much lower in terms of AP

The speed thing I can't really argue with so I concede on that lol

 

[Sigmagoon14]

The CQC isn't scaling up to durability, which is why Tom can still damage it like that.

Hansu showing better performance than Jincheol and SMK doesn't automatically make them superior. Isn't he even using an amplifier?

Nope actually he didn't used any personality patch against Woocheol while Jincheol had to use War Mode phase 2 and SMK had to use Original CQC and also if I remember correctly Woocheol was able to take hits from Jincheol and SMK when they used their normal CQC with little no damage, so there goes another point

 

[Pyro9278]

I know you say comparable and on a lower scale etc

But there is QUITE a difference between High 8-C Tom (HFW) and the Tom that was beating King's ass
HFW Tom was:
-was in Ultimate King mode (which he stated he hadn't used in 3 years up until 1A, where he made his return as ultimate King, and in HFW stated that compared to Jinyoung he was still active meaning he probably regained a bit of his prime strenght post 1A to explain the comically large power up)
-bloodlusted
-using animal instinct
-AMP by Miss Kim being in danger (which would be an even bigger power up compared to the letter stuff)
-using a 4T unique skill (base full power < 2T unique skill < 3T unique skill < 4T unique skill)
-was breaking his body down to perform the feat meaning he was literally exceeding his limits

Okay, I'll repeat it ONE more time: Amplifiers do NOT negate the High 8-C level. Just because Tom Lee is amplified in HFW doesn't mean that in MK it wasn't High 8-C when it is in its normal form.

I really dislike x character is y tier and z character was able to somewhat fight against them even though they were heldback/debuffed therfore z character is also y tier especially since the story made it very clear that that Tom had gotten a power up (or in this case was less 'debuffed' compared to earlier in the story or both)

Because then is 3A Johan High 8-C for making a heldback Tom bleed through his nose? (Obv internal damage or damaging areas like the nose that can't be trained doesn't count etc etc but you get the point right?)

That's one of the worst examples you could have used, and you know it yourself. Obviously, we're not scaling the entire universe to High 8-C; the last time that happened, even Hudson was High 8-C. Here, we already know what we're doing because we're creating a scale with SEPARATED levels.

The military trio, King, and anyone above them are simply the equivalent of high levels in the PTJ universe, while above them would be the characters we already know: Kitae, James, Gapryong, Shingen, etc. They all constitute god-level characters.

 

[Pyro9278]

Nope actually he didn't used any personality patch against Woocheol whole Jincheol had to use War Mode phase 2 and SMK had to use Original CQC and also if I remember correctly was able to take hits from Jincheol and SMK when they used their normal CQC with little no damage, so there goes another point

Well, I can consider Hansu scaling to the normal CQC multiplier if we at least make SMK and Jincheol scale higher to show that the gap isn't that big. If I had to estimate, I'd say at least 2x.

 

[Powerscalingcat]

Since MK we've had supersonic speeds, like SMK cutting a bullet and Goo cutting a gun, which are feats that count at higher levels, while even higher levels would scale to hypersonic by applying a multiplier to that same feat. It's already established that the higher levels of the verse are supersonic; the fact that they're higher than that, like hypersonic, and that a smaller group of characters, like the god levels, simply doesn't change or affect the narrative, nor does it contradict much.

In my reply to sig I conceded on the speed thing I can't really argue against that since if their base speed is x and they have a move that mutliplies their speed by 3 and a character scales above them they are obv gonna have a speed of 3x or above lol

However the same is not true for AP, the military dads with CQC would scale to 3x above old Gap even though old Gap was compared to Tom who is massively stronger than them?

Again I KNOW how multipliers work but uh, I'd like to point out that there is a reason why CQC having a 100x multiplier was rejected even though it was stated TWICE, its because it would make the scaling inconsistent as character would scale way higher than they are portrayed

If its fine to multiply all the top tiers AP by 3x because otherwise the military dads would scale higher than them with CQC then atp why not just accept the 100x multiplier since all the top tiers would scale higher anyway? If I remember correctly one of the reasons the 100x multiplier got (rightfully) rejected is because it would have made MK scale to large building level which, hilariously is what we are arguing on rn lol

I'd like point out that this is the EXACT type of reasoning that lead to everyone and their mom to scale to large building level a while back before it got removed, because everyone and their mom got chain scaled to Gap because 'old Gap was holding back anyway'

 

[Pyro9278]

Again fair enough

But I'd like to point that at least to me assuming that the military dads scale to large building level and 3x higher with CQC is just as much of a big assumption based on a fact that has any ground (as all of that hinges on assuming that Tom Lee used large building levels of power on King, when there is FAR more evidence to the contrary that I already listed out, like for eg the fact that Tom needed like 30 (figuratively not literally) buffs and amps and had to literally push his body past its limits to the point of it starting to break down in order to reach large buikding level) and that you can just as easily interpret the military dads to scale much lower in terms of AP

I think you're confusing things. Because before you were saying that Tom Lee was holding back, and now you're saying that Tom Lee was using his FP and even beyond his limit to catch up to someone at High 8-C, when that person is currently even higher than Gapryong Kim's High 8-C.

The military trio doesn't make much sense either, given that they keep climbing to 9-A and can make a High 8-C struggle so much, lmao. If PTJ was portraying the gap between them as too great, we would have seen King get one-shotted, or, being generous, Tom himself would have finished the fight in their first encounter. However, that's not what we saw. Instead, we had a constant exchange of blows between Tom (one of whom even became enraged) and King. Did King show inferiority to Tom? Yes, but does that mean he can't scale? No.

 

[Pyro9278]

In my reply to sig I conceded on the speed thing I can't really argue against that since if their base speed is x and they have a move that mutliplies their speed by 3 and a character scales above them they are obv gonna have a speed of 3x or above lol

However the same is not true for AP, the military dads with CQC would scale to 3x above old Gap even though old Gap was compared to Tom who is massively stronger than them?

Again I KNOW how multipliers work but uh, I'd like to point out that there is a reason why CQC having a 100x multiplier was rejected even though it was stated TWICE, its because it would make the scaling inconsistent as character would scale way higher than they are portrayed

If its fine to multiply all the top tiers AP by 3x because otherwise the military dads would scale higher than them with CQC then atp why not just accept the 100x multiplier since all the top tiers would scale higher anyway? If I remember correctly one of the reasons the 100x multiplier got (rightfully) rejected is because it would have made MK scale to large building level which, hilariously is what we are arguing on rn lol

I'd like point out that this is the EXACT type of reasoning that lead to everyone and their mom to scale to large building level a while back before it got removed, because everyone and their mom got chain scaled to Gap because 'old Gap was holding back anyway'

And... what makes you think Gapryong will remain inferior in values to the military trio? I think you're forgetting something, Pwcat.

 

[Sigmagoon14]

That same Gap was being used to compare both full power Tom AND James both of which are top tiers

The same Gap scales below Seongji Brochacho
But anyways, I'm still 50/50 on SMK manhwa being High 8-C because I already had a debate with Azontr where my point still stands, but when I re-read the interview arc, Kim was able to manage to damage Tom after heart stopper, not like Johan or King, but made Tom cough blood with gut punches.

But yeah, I think we should wait for CRT whenever that happens.

 

[Powerscalingcat]

Why?

Characters like James and Kitae would end up scaling massively above their own AP feats, when the whole point of the most recent feat was to establish exactly that lol

I also disagree because that exact type of loose narrative scaling to top tiers is what resulted in Mandeok and everyone and their mom scaling to Gap's gate feat in Busan cuz 'Gap was holding back anyway' 'AP ≠ DC' and so on

'Ap ≠ DC' only works in short A = B or A >< B like Gun vs Johan for example, where although Gun has never performed a 1 gigajoule feat himself he should scale to it because Johan performed a 1 gigajoule feat while fighting him and Gun can tank his attacks and damage Johan

In this case its the military dads vaguely scale to Tom who was exerting himself to an unknown degree and they should scale to 3x that with FP Tom scaling above them who scales to old Gap, both of which scale to James who scales to Kitae who scales to small UI Daniel who scales big UI Daniel who scales to TUI Gun who scales to Goo who scales to Pacheon who scales to-

Do you see what I mean when I say this is a slipper slope

If we can scale Tom's large building AP to the military dads because he vaguely exerted himself against King who they scale to, and Tom scales to a BUNCH of top tiers (Goo, James, Gun, Kitae) all of them scale to other top tiers (Pacheon, Gap, Shingen, Jinyoung, both Daniels) who scale to others and so on, if a character vaguely exerting themselves is enough to scale to the same tier of power as them, then you can easily apply that to the character who scale to said character and the character who scale to the characters who scale to that character and so on until the whole damm verse scales to it cuz 'x character was holding back anyways'

We already had a period where everyone and their mom scaled to Gap's gate feat, I don't want another chain scale of doom and despair where everyone scales to 18 tons lol

 

[Sigmagoon14]

Well, I can consider Hansu scaling to the normal CQC multiplier if we at least make SMK and Jincheol scale higher to show that the gap isn't that big. If I had to estimate, I'd say at least 2x.

Actually no, Hansu is easily scaling to the 3x multiplier because that 3x multiplier was for normal CQC, not for unique. The unique one's multiplier got rejected, so yeah, I think the 3x is also usable.

So yeah 6.66 tons Tom and Hansu are real🗣