Lupin III: Statistic Update

[Detective_Blizzard]

Howdy yall, while the more cognitive stuff in the verse is looked over we are going to be focusing on the physical ballparks of the verse. Main goal with this one is simply to showcase the verse's current feats and some supporting evidence for higher end stuff. The new standards are for feats already accepted and calculations already accepted. Since this is mostly already accepted stuff, this CRT is mainly just to showcase examples to help understand where these changes are coming from.


Verse Standard

For starters, we have the standard stats of the verse to go over. Just by looking at the profiles most would think "Wow, the verse is pretty small all things considered" which is a very inaccurate description that was created largely due to how inconsistent the verse is and how many of it's feats were just ignored for countless reasons. However, now that the verse is composited and allows these feats back into the market we can now properly utilize them turning what was once 'Inconsistent' into 'Consistently high-end'.

For starters, the whole idea that the characters are weak because of the use of conventional weaponry or realism is just untrue. As an example I'll use something that was mentioned as a example of the verse staying realistic, Pycal the Magician. In his original episode he tanks this rocket which was supposed to be a guaranteed kill, however despite running away from him due to his invulnerability Lupin and Jigen just casually survive a similar, if not much larger explosion without any major or long lasting injury with them beating Pycal the next day. This is literally the second episode ever in the series, and this type of thing consistently happens where characters act as though something is lethal however the actual feats for it make it massively unimpressive. In fact the series was downgraded from 8-C because of that very logic since one of the few calculations we had prior to this had this same narrative structure of "Character says this explosive will kill people, casually survives it".

As for the new verse standard, it will be the currently accepted feat and calculation for 7-C. Explosions in the verse basically never kill in the franchise with even the most random civilians with no notable traits are capable of surviving lower yielding explosives with literally no damage done to him at all (For the record, this is also commonly seen as the more 'low end and realistic' side of the verse if you believe it). The truth of the matter is that the verse is filled with high end feats and traits if you know where to look. From powerful magic capable of generating natural disasters, various accounts of equipment capable of atomizing entire islands, obliterating massive mountain ranges, creating sound waves capable of effecting all of Italy, or literally just an island made up of gunpowder (only example which doesn't include cast members withstanding it lol), anyone can see that the verse has far higher heights than what the current profiles would ever suggest with the 7-C acting as a decent means for durability and AP on a physical level all around. All weaponry meanwhile will be placed on 6-C+ as while explosives are highly inconsistent at killing people, guns and various other lethal weapons have far easier times doing so as they are always considered one shots in the verse. Vastly superior weapons like the Zenigata Robo will be High 6-C, likely far higher as the feat for the weapons are already so close to High 6-C and at the Robo levels it would be massively superior than them. Similar logic should apply to any weaponry which has noticeably more power than Lupin's gun such as Jigen and Yael's anti-tank riles which should be "At least High 6-C" as those things can just ragdoll people through reinforced glass as opposed to the normal guns which would leave far less force.

God Tier Standard

This is simple and clean, the Zantetsuken is a weapon which only scales to itself with it's AP and Durability scaling to whatever it's strongest showcase is. Nothing except for Hawk has any arguments for not being an outlier due to how consistent it is, so those two are now placed inside the now accepted 5-A range as these powers are considered unstoppable to the rest of the verse and are either defeated by PIS, CIS, trickery, or by facing a Zantetsuken equivalent.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

For starters, the whole idea that the characters are weak because of the use of conventional weaponry or realism is just untrue. As an example I'll use something that was mentioned as a example of the verse staying realistic, Pycal the Magician. In his original episode he tanks this rocket which was supposed to be a guaranteed kill, however despite running away from him due to his invulnerability Lupin and Jigen just casually survive a similar, if not much larger explosion without any major or long lasting injury with them beating Pycal the next day. This is literally the second episode ever in the series, and this type of thing consistently happens where characters act as though something is lethal however the actual feats for it make it massively unimpressive. In fact the series was downgraded from 8-C because of that very logic since one of the few calculations we had prior to this had this same narrative structure of "Character says this explosive will kill people, casually survives it".

I'm gonna disagree with the trend of logic at work here. The missile is something they explicitly recognize as being something beyond their ability to survive- when the magician does, they agree it's pointless to fight back. They straight up flee from the guy, and the eventual explosion they survive is not on-screen; given it's implicitly their car exploding, it seems plausible they escaped the dead epicenter by a good amount off-screen, given there's a generous timespan between that and the car catching fire.

I expect consistency, this would seem to trend against the premise of the thread.

As for the new verse standard, it will be the currently accepted feat and calculation for 7-C. Explosions in the verse basically never kill in the franchise with even the most random civilians with no notable traits are capable of surviving lower yielding explosives with literally no damage done to him at all (For the record, this is also commonly seen as the more 'low end and realistic' side of the verse if you believe it).

Even if something is canon, there are still priorities in place. An arcade game machine graphics shouldn't be prioritized over the core media franchise explicitly saying "hey man we can't beat something that survives this rocket, it's not possible". Regarding the lesser explosive feat, I really doubt this is a supporting feat to 7-C (that bomb hardly looked nuclear), but I am curious to know if the guy who actually detonated the explosion survived, or just the guy on the other side of the door?

The truth of the matter is that the verse is filled with high end feats and traits if you know where to look. From powerful magic capable of generating natural disasters, various accounts of equipment capable of atomizing entire islands, obliterating massive mountain ranges, creating sound waves capable of effecting all of Italy, or literally just an island made up of gunpowder (only example which doesn't include cast members withstanding it lol), anyone can see that the verse has far higher heights than what the current profiles would ever suggest with the 7-C acting as a decent means for durability and AP on a physical level all around. All weaponry meanwhile will be placed on 6-C+ as while explosives are highly inconsistent at killing people, guns and various other lethal weapons have far easier times doing so as they are always considered one shots in the verse. Vastly superior weapons like the Zenigata Robo will be High 6-C, likely far higher as the feat for the weapons are already so close to High 6-C and at the Robo levels it would be massively superior than them. Similar logic should apply to any weaponry which has noticeably more power than Lupin's gun such as Jigen and Yael's anti-tank riles which should be "At least High 6-C" as those things can just ragdoll people through reinforced glass as opposed to the normal guns which would leave far less force.

Magic rituals are frequently not related to the physical capabilities of a character, nor can they often make use of environmental destruction in focused attacks. Regarding these... a few of these are not presented fairly. "atomizing entire islands" visibly takes a really long time to even atomize a helicopter and the guy inside, and the broader effects of it aren't atomizing at all, shit is just being ripped up. The obliteration of a mountain range has them inside a vehicle, they didn't tank anything (even ambiguously- it's ambiguous the vehicle survived, but they objectively weren't hit at all). The sound wave thing is so obviously just a matter of range and not AP- it doesn't destroy or kill anybody, and in fact it affects the cast in the exact same way as everyone else. The gunpowder island thing has no obvious correlation to AP or durability, nobody tanks anything in the clip provided.

As for the first feat. He shot the guy. The magic stopped. Lupin's gun did not disperse the storm. This is Environmental Destruction (and only 8-A environmental destruction at that, and only for the magic dude).

God Tier Standard

This is simple and clean, the Zantetsuken is a weapon which only scales to itself with it's AP and Durability scaling to whatever it's strongest showcase is. Nothing except for Hawk has any arguments for not being an outlier due to how consistent it is, so those two are now placed inside the now accepted 5-A range as these powers are considered unstoppable to the rest of the verse and are either defeated by PIS, CIS, trickery, or by facing a Zantetsuken equivalent.

As this is a god tier weapon, I'm more on the fence about this. There's two things to consider. First is that he did legitimately just do that. The second is that the moon then falls five feet into the ocean to create a small splash. This moon is about twenty meters in diameter, then.

 

[Detective_Blizzard]

I'm gonna disagree with the trend of logic at work here. The missile is something they explicitly recognize as being something beyond their ability to survive- when the magician does, they agree it's pointless to fight back. They straight up flee from the guy, and the eventual explosion they survive is not on-screen; given it's implicitly their car exploding, it seems plausible they escaped the dead epicenter by a good amount off-screen, given there's a generous timespan between that and the car catching fire.

Firstly, incorrect on a few accounts. In fact the same logic was used for another one of the few calculations we had which had higher results for the characters. However, this is legit a contradiction and a showcasing at how often these things contradict each other as they didn't escape the dead epicenter at all. This is just a thing that happens in the verse constantly.

I expect consistency, this would seem to trend against the premise of the thread.

The premise of the thread is the fact that the entire scaling of the current profiles are largely based on inconsistency, as they've mostly been made by ignoring most of the other feats of the verse and focusing primarily on lower end yields which leave only minor damages for the characters in most scenarios.

Even if something is canon, there are still priorities in place. An arcade game machine graphics shouldn't be prioritized over the core media franchise explicitly saying "hey man we can't beat something that survives this rocket, it's not possible". Regarding the lesser explosive feat, I really doubt this is a supporting feat to 7-C (that bomb hardly looked nuclear), but I am curious to know if the guy who actually detonated the explosion survived, or just the guy on the other side of the door?

Same primary material contradicts itself in the literal next scene (yes, those scenes were back to back). Also I made no mentions of things being nuclear, the supporting example was there to showcase that the current rating for the verse is a gross lowball as characters are just casually surviving these things even when the verse is at it's narrative weakest with the most 'realism'. The same core media franchise has far higher things with a lot of those lower yielding examples coming from the 1970s as opposed to the modern 2010-2020s where the higher feats are from. As for the explosion question, both of them survived as I showed here with neither of them showcasing any form of damage

Magic rituals are frequently not related to the physical capabilities of a character, nor can they often make use of environmental destruction in focused attacks.

It's not necessarily a magic ritual, as the character can just kinda control the weather casually. Additionally same character can use his magic for focused attacks and if I'm being frank has some more absurdist things in there in terms of conventional and unconventional (reality warping pocket dimension). The 7-C is already heavily downward from these feats, not scaling directly to them.

"atomizing entire islands" visibly takes a really long time to even atomize a helicopter and the guy inside, and the broader effects of it aren't atomizing at all, shit is just being ripped up.

There was a calculation for it that was in the mountain levels regardless, and that was just for Lupin being able to withstand it (granted, that was from it being a black hole). Even without all of that, the physicals are still not trying to say that he is island level, but town level which is already taking your counterpoints into mind. Additionally, that damage wasn't caused by the weapon being directly pointed at the island as that was simply the after effects of the surrounding areas not in it's path

The obliteration of a mountain range has them inside a vehicle, they didn't tank anything (even ambiguously- it's ambiguous the vehicle survived, but they objectively weren't hit at all).

The vehicle was a normal helicopter, the vehicle did survive it, and the actual explosion and radius was on a underground base which they were presumed still inside when the weapon was fired. In order to say they didn't get hit by that, you'd need to argue that they flew the helicopter outside the radius and then immediately flew back into the danger zone, through an active tornado, only for them to land on the other side of the crater. And once again, the actual preposed physical stats for the characters is still massively below any value this explosion would create.

Edit: If you want to argue the helicopter tanking the entire force of the attack for the main cast, you'd need to agree to the verse being buffed because with current standards that wouldn't make any sense

The sound wave thing is so obviously just a matter of range and not AP- it doesn't destroy or kill anybody, and in fact it affects the cast in the exact same way as everyone else.

Correct, that was more-so to showcase the more consistent manner of scale of the verse as the higher end stuff in both hax and destruction tends to be effecting entire nations. Also, it doesn't actually effect the cast the same as everyone else ironically enough. There are signs of struggle with Nyx specifically showcasing a resistance to it but there is so much context that it would derail everything else.

The gunpowder island thing has no obvious correlation to AP or durability, nobody tanks anything in the clip provided.

Also correct, that was more-so there for a joke, similar sense of scale, and a personal way to honor the original late voice actor of Zenigata as that was the last piece of animation he voiced on. If you want something a bit more solid then there's Oda Nobunaga who is a robot who is physically maintaining a large pocket dimension (While there's no full size to use, various angles of the scenes showcase that it's a decently large ninja complex with various buildings in the distance, which even at the lowest possible ends decimate any current scaling on the verse)

Alternatively there's this transmutation feat but with what I've seen on those (Mainly just Frieren lol) that 100% leads to a far higher value than anything else lol.

As for the first feat. He shot the guy. The magic stopped. Lupin's gun did not disperse the storm. This is Environmental Destruction (and only 8-A environmental destruction at that, and only for the magic dude).

Also incorrect, however I can't exactly blame you for thinking that as you aren't the first to point out how it looks like that lol. He did not shoot the guy but instead the actual sky, the giant floating head is just an illusion he uses to taunt people, the real guy is just a 3'5" goblin man. The only things that happen in the feat is Lupin withstanding the incoming disaster and him dispersing it, the only factors Mamo plays into it is creating and controlling the storm in attempts to make Lupin give up/die (he's a character who doesn't like to kill, and prefers to scare his enemies into submission).

As this is a god tier weapon, I'm more on the fence about this. There's two things to consider. First is that he did legitimately just do that. The second is that the moon then falls five feet into the ocean to create a small splash. This moon is about twenty meters in diameter, then.

He did actually do it, and as for the moon size that's mainly just a stylistic thing if we want to say it's smaller. The verse can be pretty inconsistent when it comes to the size of things and just keeps it "vaguely big" (For example, the robot here is meant should realistically be far too large for the human next to it) however the moon itself is meant to be our real world moon and is typically treated as such. Also the scene doesn't create a small splash as it's simply just a water sound effect, if you look closely you can see that on all accounts the camera is still underwater and everything is flooded.

Plus there is a statement feat which depicts him as being capable of slicing the moon which unironically makes this more consistent than his other high-end feats as they typically only have one example of a given moment except this one has two. (Obviously due to this is just a character statement it's not the one being used alongside the fact that the moon is too small and the character never actually doing it themselves in the movie)

 

[Detective_Blizzard]

Oh yeah, I guess for a main TV feat that actually happened this decade this feat comes to mind. There's nothing suggesting that he dodged it (with him even being shown to fail to do so comedically) though I have no clue what results would come from that impact though. Additionally it's during a montage of Lupin repeatedly failing and suffering what can only be described as cosmic torture, had he succeeded in escaping events would've played differently there.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Firstly, incorrect on a few accounts. In fact the same logic was used for another one of the few calculations we had which had higher results for the characters. However, this is legit a contradiction and a showcasing at how often these things contradict each other as they didn't escape the dead epicenter at all. This is just a thing that happens in the verse constantly.

I don't see this as incorrect. That it is a contradiction is the point. The extended clip helps, but even a meter of distance from the epicenter (which is approximately what it looks like) divides the result significantly. Without a calculation, I would still see this being viably 8-C.

Same primary material contradicts itself in the literal next scene (yes, those scenes were back to back). Also I made no mentions of things being nuclear, the supporting example was there to showcase that the current rating for the verse is a gross lowball as characters are just casually surviving these things even when the verse is at it's narrative weakest with the most 'realism'. The same core media franchise has far higher things with a lot of those lower yielding examples coming from the 1970s as opposed to the modern 2010-2020s where the higher feats are from. As for the explosion question, both of them survived as I showed here with neither of them showcasing any form of damage

My mention of the word "nuclear" is in reference to the alleged 7-C potency of the feat, a potency on par with a nuclear bomb. You're asserting that it is this strength. The second scene shown looks more like a flashback? They're speaking in past tense in regards to it.

It's not necessarily a magic ritual, as the character can just kinda control the weather casually. Additionally same character can use his magic for focused attacks and if I'm being frank has some more absurdist things in there in terms of conventional and unconventional (reality warping pocket dimension). The 7-C is already heavily downward from these feats, not scaling directly to them.

I think mentioning magic was a mistake, it drew attention away from the crux of the issue, which is that situations like this are frequently environmental destruction. That said, if he is magic as the basis of the character, I don't understand the focus being put on the source rather than the effect? I'm getting confused as to the point of this facet of discussion.

Regardless. The other feats presented don't seem to be 7-C? You allege these are all above that tier, I don't understand how you came to that conclusion.

There was a calculation for it that was in the mountain levels regardless, and that was just for Lupin being able to withstand it (granted, that was from it being a black hole). Even without all of that, the physicals are still not trying to say that he is island level, but town level which is already taking your counterpoints into mind. Additionally, that damage wasn't caused by the weapon being directly pointed at the island as that was simply the after effects of the surrounding areas not in it's path

Could you link that calc? I don't see how, given the timeframe and the limited scope of the feat, it can possibly be Mountain level. Also, I suppose I should have asked previously, can I see Lupin surviving it? He seems distinctly affected by it, at least a little bit, in the provided video- he was being atomized, just at the snail's pace the item provided. So how did he survive?

The vehicle was a normal helicopter, the vehicle did survive it, and the actual explosion and radius was on a underground base which they were presumed still inside when the weapon was fired. In order to say they didn't get hit by that, you'd need to argue that they flew the helicopter outside the radius and then immediately flew back into the danger zone, through an active tornado, only for them to land on the other side of the crater. And once again, the actual preposed physical stats for the characters is still massively below any value this explosion would create.

Edit: If you want to argue the helicopter tanking the entire force of the attack for the main cast, you'd need to agree to the verse being buffed because with current standards that wouldn't make any sense

Okay, but they didn't survive it. And no, I don't need to argue that. I argue they were inside something. To offer a comparable case, this is equivalent to giving Indiana Jones 7-B durability for surviving a nuclear explosion by being within a fridge- a perhaps equally nonsensical feat, but still, Indiana Jones was not within the radius of this blast, because he was surrounded by cover.

I don't need to agree to that, as far as I can tell? Like. Outside the fact that we get a terrible view as to what the helicopter actually endured (barring the video showing something more concrete, but I imagine you would have presented that in the first place if that existed?), why would this constitute an upgrade to the cast.

Also correct, that was more-so there for a joke, similar sense of scale, and a personal way to honor the original late voice actor of Zenigata as that was the last piece of animation he voiced on. If you want something a bit more solid then there's Oda Nobunaga who is a robot who is physically maintaining a large pocket dimension (While there's no full size to use, various angles of the scenes showcase that it's a decently large ninja complex with various buildings in the distance, which even at the lowest possible ends decimate any current scaling on the verse)

Alternatively there's this transmutation feat but with what I've seen on those (Mainly just Frieren lol) that 100% leads to a far higher value than anything else lol.

Without further context (which, admittedly, might be there, the game is in Japanese, which I cannot read), this falls back in the territory of things we would often just consider Environmental Destruction. Even at that scale, it seems plausible we'd just get 8-B for that, judging purely from a sight-read.

Since when do we use transmutation (hax) as AP?

Also incorrect, however I can't exactly blame you for thinking that as you aren't the first to point out how it looks like that lol. He did not shoot the guy but instead the actual sky, the giant floating head is just an illusion he uses to taunt people, the real guy is just a 3'5" goblin man. The only things that happen in the feat is Lupin withstanding the incoming disaster and him dispersing it, the only factors Mamo plays into it is creating and controlling the storm in attempts to make Lupin give up/die (he's a character who doesn't like to kill, and prefers to scare his enemies into submission).

I dunno if I can agree with this interpretation. The clip provided shows him floating in the sky. I'm not saying he isn't projecting a larger illusion of himself, that tracks- but the assumptions here are either "he shot the dude floating, causing the storm to stop for having ceased its power source", or "he shot the sky and the clouds all dispersed instantly, with no rebuke from the guy generating them". I think Lupin just shot that dude.

He did actually do it, and as for the moon size that's mainly just a stylistic thing if we want to say it's smaller. The verse can be pretty inconsistent when it comes to the size of things and just keeps it "vaguely big" (For example, the robot here is meant should realistically be far too large for the human next to it) however the moon itself is meant to be our real world moon and is typically treated as such. Also the scene doesn't create a small splash as it's simply just a water sound effect, if you look closely you can see that on all accounts the camera is still underwater and everything is flooded.

Plus there is a statement feat which depicts him as being capable of slicing the moon which unironically makes this more consistent than his other high-end feats as they typically only have one example of a given moment except this one has two. (Obviously due to this is just a character statement it's not the one being used alongside the fact that the moon is too small and the character never actually doing it themselves in the movie)

By the same measure we could just call all of this a stylistic thing. The moon is visibly extremely small, so the feat isn't 5-A. Pretty much this. The robot size isn't contradicted in that scene. The splash is small in the context of a moon crashing into planet Earth.

That statement, again, features a catastrophically small moon. It's larger than the one in the arcade machine, though. It may even yield greater than 8-C, although I'm not sure how you'd get the size of it- we can only judge it apparently. As you say, it's dicey to use it, but I think it's about as dicey to use arcade machine things that, per your own stance, use "stylistic" choices to alter the context of the feats.

I can be convinced of a couple things in this thread where loose ends remain and further evidence may sate me, but in general I find the Tier 6/5 feat entirely unacceptable. Tier 7 may still be salvageable, if there's any feats left out then I encourage you to go get them.

 

[Detective_Blizzard]

I don't see this as incorrect. That it is a contradiction is the point. The extended clip helps, but even a meter of distance from the epicenter (which is approximately what it looks like) divides the result significantly. Without a calculation, I would still see this being viably 8-C.

Fair on that I suppose, I can't prove math stuff as it's not my forte (though that's still higher than the current standards)

My mention of the word "nuclear" is in reference to the alleged 7-C potency of the feat, a potency on par with a nuclear bomb. You're asserting that it is this strength. The second scene shown looks more like a flashback? They're speaking in past tense in regards to it.

Oh, I see. The math on that is correct, based on what I've been told, which would put it on such a level. The second scene either a flashback or 'current events', basically its an end of movie reveal that the guy had survived the explosion and is going to look after his kid. The idea of the characters surviving nuclear attacks however isn't completely unfounded as Mystery of Mamo has Lupin and Zenigata be on an island that's being constantly bombarded by nuclear missiles from every nation in the world (long story) however that example lasts far too short for them to actual showcase any feat. Only thing there is "they somehow survived getting off the island on foot" which is supported in a Part 5 clip which shows the iconic scene reanimated.

I think mentioning magic was a mistake, it drew attention away from the crux of the issue, which is that situations like this are frequently environmental destruction. That said, if he is magic as the basis of the character, I don't understand the focus being put on the source rather than the effect? I'm getting confused as to the point of this facet of discussion.

Regardless. The other feats presented don't seem to be 7-C? You allege these are all above that tier, I don't understand how you came to that conclusion.

The lightning attack causes the weather in the background to rapidly move, the fire attacks are able to burst holes into the clouds, and the reality warping pocket dimension has the Roman Colosseum in it alongside countless other historic pieces of arts/hallmarks. I would assume feats of these caliber would yield similar results.

Could you link that calc? I don't see how, given the timeframe and the limited scope of the feat, it can possibly be Mountain level. Also, I suppose I should have asked previously, can I see Lupin surviving it? He seems distinctly affected by it, at least a little bit, in the provided video- he was being atomized, just at the snail's pace the item provided. So how did he survive?

Here's the feat, it was denied due to not showcasing enough similarities to black holes (with the ones that could be argued attempts to do so not being good enough). Apparently the pixel scaling is off for it so the results would be lower but the ballpark idea would largely be the same as the calculation is just the sheer force Lupin is barley withstanding as opposed to the actual thing. As for surviving the thing, here ya go, mainly didn't include it because imgur has a strict 1 minute cap and I didn't see much benefit to making one unless specifically asked (Characters don't resurrect in this franchise for the most part, with none of the main cast having a true death except Zenigata and that was just a very brief heart stop). As for how he survived, pure physicals. The only implication of him having assistance is a simple parachute to help him land, however him holding onto the damn thing and somewhat withstanding the atomization is all him. As for a timeframe idea, he presumably held onto the thing for about 30 seconds as the machine doesn't stop until then (had he let go mid-way the destruction would've been far more erratic).

Okay, but they didn't survive it. And no, I don't need to argue that. I argue they were inside something. To offer a comparable case, this is equivalent to giving Indiana Jones 7-B durability for surviving a nuclear explosion by being within a fridge- a perhaps equally nonsensical feat, but still, Indiana Jones was not within the radius of this blast, because he was surrounded by cover.

I don't need to agree to that, as far as I can tell? Like. Outside the fact that we get a terrible view as to what the helicopter actually endured (barring the video showing something more concrete, but I imagine you would have presented that in the first place if that existed?), why would this constitute an upgrade to the cast.

For the first part, fair I suppose

For the second part, it would be evidence for the equipment being improved as it would be an example of these things having a far higher rating than normal. It is a terrible shot and it is the best that I have, the only additional context is that it's also meant to be a black hole which just muddies it up in general. Hence why I have made no attempts to calculate it and just went for pure visual effect as any result would look ridiculous even if I could somehow have it make sense. As even without any of the added context, it supports the idea that the people making this stuff think it's possible these characters can just survive massive explosions consistently.

Without further context (which, admittedly, might be there, the game is in Japanese, which I cannot read), this falls back in the territory of things we would often just consider Environmental Destruction. Even at that scale, it seems plausible we'd just get 8-B for that, judging purely from a sight-read.

I could believe 8-B for that specific feat however that'd be supporting evidence that the verse has much higher standards than what's currently accepted and would turn the conversation from "A bunch of 9-A to 7-C" to "8-B/A to 7-C" which is a lot more reasonable. As for context, there definitely is lol as the that's part of a much bigger story mode. Basically it's a robot of Oda Nobunaga built to protect his treasure, which is so vast it's able to build an building of gold large enough to rival Arlong Park, which is contained inside of a pocket dimension that is maintained by it which can only be accessed by "Pandora's Egg" (Forgot if that's the actual name, I just remember the Pandora part as it brings death and ruin + it's a literal egg). From my knowledge that'd be actual power and not environmental damage as a character actively keeping a pocket dimension up would be a sign of their own power. Couldn't find any evidence that Oda Nobunaga had any exterior power sources for him to siphon energy on (some evidence for him giving energy away though, as his minions are also destroyed when he is indicating they are tied to him as a power source)

Since when do we use transmutation (hax) as AP?

Might have tricked myself on a few things for that, apologies. Been a hot minute since I've looked at some things and misremembered some feats (This Lupin stuff is frying my brain I swear!)

I dunno if I can agree with this interpretation. The clip provided shows him floating in the sky. I'm not saying he isn't projecting a larger illusion of himself, that tracks- but the assumptions here are either "he shot the dude floating, causing the storm to stop for having ceased its power source", or "he shot the sky and the clouds all dispersed instantly, with no rebuke from the guy generating them". I think Lupin just shot that dude.

Debatable on his floating in the sky, as that is not 1 for 1 (the scenes aren't back to back, it's just an example of him amping up the weather stuff) and it could just be a perspective thing as we never actually see his feet there and he spends a good portion of the game on high buildings anyway. But I have an additional counter point towards the idea he actually shot Mamo, and the machine itself. Whenever Mamo takes damage or dies (which happens a lot as he doesn't care about it and have a lot of backups) the machine ALWAYS plays the same animation where a bullet hole shows up with the eyes on the top turning Exotropia. Means of death can differ however that is a constant thing due to the machine and Mamo being mentally linked (this dude is a very weird amalgamation of high-end technology, magic, psychic, among many other traits). Since the machine doesn't do that there should be no reason to believe a Mamo clone died there. (You can kinda see it in the original cloud feat as one of the hands is still active, though if you are pressed on that I should be able to find an example showing the machine full view. It's just annoying since I have to go through a bunch of videos to find a singular example that could be anywhere or nowhere)

Also, if he shot the guy, wouldn't floating we'd see his body in the sky as he's dying?

By the same measure we could just call all of this a stylistic thing. The moon is visibly extremely small, so the feat isn't 5-A. Pretty much this. The robot size isn't contradicted in that scene. The splash is small in the context of a moon crashing into planet Earth.

As for the robot size, it definitely is contradicted as even with that game specifically the head is like 1.5 stories high (the background are buildings, it's flying down a street at high speeds). As for the moon splash, I have no context for how it's meant to look. The full splash isn't even seen as while the initial impact is low it's immediately followed by a 2nd bigger one that covers the entire screen which has no visible end. The verse is very hard to gauge at times since it sometimes just ignores physics for things while other times choosing to just incorporate real world quantum physics to other things (still have a migraine on that shit). What would I need to find to support it, as in most examples the verse is meant to be the exact same as our own with the main differences being either advanced technology or mythologies actually existing. Things like the cosmos are largely untouched from real world standards with the only exception I can think of being 2 examples which either imply or outright state that alien life exist somewhere.

Like would having comparing shots between the earth, moon, and the sun be considered viable? This verse is so many ways into unorthodox that I wouldn't be surprised at this point if Mamo's gigantic brain which tanked a nuke is viable evidence for the moon being the moon. (Though looking at it, wouldn't be surprised if that shit inflated the numbers higher). I just went with the normal moon's size because it's the simplest, most straightforward, and gives the most general idea possible since there is no way the series has a consistent size reference for celestial bodies. This is just a thing that happens a lot with the franchise (I know I say that a good amount but at this point I'm just so used to it's nonsense), every time a giant thing appears it can alter in size to comedic amounts.

That statement, again, features a catastrophically small moon. It's larger than the one in the arcade machine, though. It may even yield greater than 8-C, although I'm not sure how you'd get the size of it- we can only judge it apparently. As you say, it's dicey to use it, but I think it's about as dicey to use arcade machine things that, per your own stance, use "stylistic" choices to alter the context of the feats.

No, I don't believe it's fair to call them equal in terms of usability. The Arcade Machine one doesn't have the moon drop right next to the character, preventing any real sense of distorted size to the casual eye, the arcade version causes massive environmental damage compared to the statement one which just plops on the ground with a far lighter splash, and the arcade one in general is depicted as grander than the statement version.

Actually, wait a minute. Where did you get 5 feet from? If it's for how long it took the moon to fall, then that's already accounted for in the feat as it's literally just the amount of force needed to push the moon at such high speeds. I was referring to the splash itself since I'd assume realistically there'd be a bunch of problems with the moon falling that fast but the series can often go on some Looney Toones logic at times and I can't exactly blame some random animator for not going 100% accurate for the moon falling down from orbit on what is at most a 15 second clip. I'm seeing characters swimming in space in their suits, defying the laws of gravity, and ignoring various accounts of physics, I'm not expecting many realistic events to occur at this point as toon force just exists in the verse and sometimes I just have to look at something and say "Yeah, that happened"

If it helps for the idea that the sword could be 5-A, the metal the Zantetsuken is made up of is said to have turned the tide of WW2 resulting in the win we have today. (Source, First Contact movie) While that sounds unimpressive on it's own, literally every single example of black hole weaponry in the franchise has Nazi fingerprints on em. (Source, The First movie + The Last Job movie) Which definitely paints an interesting picture of how the second world war was being played and how high the scale both sides were willing to go to win lol.

I can be convinced of a couple things in this thread where loose ends remain and further evidence may sate me, but in general I find the Tier 6/5 feat entirely unacceptable. Tier 7 may still be salvageable, if there's any feats left out then I encourage you to go get them.

There is a larger issue at play however. If only tier 7 is accepted or even just your proposed Tier 8 stuff, the verse is left with a large chunk of completely unquantifiable equipment which has no ratings to them. Every single weapon is a one-shot leading to higher results than normal weapons, the stronger stuff scales far higher than on account of simply being stronger weaponry, the Robots scale even higher than that as they are basically super-weapons, then you have the Zantetsuken which is just above everything else to a ungodly degree that putting it on a similar scale to the other stuff just doesn't make any amount of sense. That thing is stated countless times to be capable of cutting anything in nature or made by man, so much so that the literal catchphrase of the character is calling everything he sliced worthless. The only thing considered worthy to that sword are Time Crystals, which is some real-life quantum physics bs that are 4D structures that repeat in space alongside time.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Oh, I see. The math on that is correct, based on what I've been told, which would put it on such a level. The second scene either a flashback or 'current events', basically its an end of movie reveal that the guy had survived the explosion and is going to look after his kid. The idea of the characters surviving nuclear attacks however isn't completely unfounded as Mystery of Mamo has Lupin and Zenigata be on an island that's being constantly bombarded by nuclear missiles from every nation in the world (long story) however that example lasts far too short for them to actual showcase any feat. Only thing there is "they somehow survived getting off the island on foot" which is supported in a Part 5 clip which shows the iconic scene reanimated.

that's fully not a feat

The lightning attack causes the weather in the background to rapidly move, the fire attacks are able to burst holes into the clouds, and the reality warping pocket dimension has the Roman Colosseum in it alongside countless other historic pieces of arts/hallmarks. I would assume feats of these caliber would yield similar results.

Eyeballing the feats, I would find it hard to believe most of those are 7-C. I assume by phrasing that they are as of yet uncalculated, as well, so it doesn't seem productive to continue on about them.

Here's the feat, it was denied due to not showcasing enough similarities to black holes (with the ones that could be argued attempts to do so not being good enough). Apparently the pixel scaling is off for it so the results would be lower but the ballpark idea would largely be the same as the calculation is just the sheer force Lupin is barley withstanding as opposed to the actual thing. As for surviving the thing, here ya go, mainly didn't include it because imgur has a strict 1 minute cap and I didn't see much benefit to making one unless specifically asked (Characters don't resurrect in this franchise for the most part, with none of the main cast having a true death except Zenigata and that was just a very brief heart stop). As for how he survived, pure physicals. The only implication of him having assistance is a simple parachute to help him land, however him holding onto the damn thing and somewhat withstanding the atomization is all him. As for a timeframe idea, he presumably held onto the thing for about 30 seconds as the machine doesn't stop until then (had he let go mid-way the destruction would've been far more erratic).

Oh. Yeah that straight up is not a black hole, it shouldn't have been calculated as one. I wish the scene showing him alive showed the context of how he was alive- I'm working with only the clips provided, but the sequence of events here is Lupin activates the atomizing weapon -> The weapon begins to eat away at the helicopter/Lupin himself over, say, a thirty second timespan, during which it's only sucking out bits of Lupin's feet -> The weapon begins tossing around the environment, picking up boulders and people and such (including flinging Lupin/the helicopter offscreen) -> Lupin appears later, miraculously unchanged. Without an explanation as to what the hell happened... I don't know. The feat is much lower than the OP suggests either way, I find it implausible it's usable, but I will pivot to neutral, leaning to disagree for now on using it.

For the first part, fair I suppose

For the second part, it would be evidence for the equipment being improved as it would be an example of these things having a far higher rating than normal. It is a terrible shot and it is the best that I have, the only additional context is that it's also meant to be a black hole which just muddies it up in general. Hence why I have made no attempts to calculate it and just went for pure visual effect as any result would look ridiculous even if I could somehow have it make sense. As even without any of the added context, it supports the idea that the people making this stuff think it's possible these characters can just survive massive explosions consistently.

Do you have a calc for this, acknowledging distance from epicenter, and can that calc be readily adjusted to account for a helicopter. Can you then show something like, I dunno, a character barehand punching a helicopter, and destroying it? This proposed tier is solely for the physicals of a character, so this would be the necessary ammunition to begin a conversation on "This character scales to the durability of this helicopter".

I could believe 8-B for that specific feat however that'd be supporting evidence that the verse has much higher standards than what's currently accepted and would turn the conversation from "A bunch of 9-A to 7-C" to "8-B/A to 7-C" which is a lot more reasonable. As for context, there definitely is lol as the that's part of a much bigger story mode. Basically it's a robot of Oda Nobunaga built to protect his treasure, which is so vast it's able to build an building of gold large enough to rival Arlong Park, which is contained inside of a pocket dimension that is maintained by it which can only be accessed by "Pandora's Egg" (Forgot if that's the actual name, I just remember the Pandora part as it brings death and ruin + it's a literal egg). From my knowledge that'd be actual power and not environmental damage as a character actively keeping a pocket dimension up would be a sign of their own power. Couldn't find any evidence that Oda Nobunaga had any exterior power sources for him to siphon energy on (some evidence for him giving energy away though, as his minions are also destroyed when he is indicating they are tied to him as a power source)

To be clear, because I feel you're taking this the wrong way: 8-B isn't a value I approve of, nor is it one you can use as yet. All feats need calculated. When I say "I could believe 8-B", I'm saying that in my experience as a Calc Group Member, and without putting the actual math to it, I could believe it reaches such a height. The rest of that really should have evidence presented (as in, proving the specifics of the pocket dimension, the size and scope of it, etc), because as of current presentations, I consider this the best feat given in this thread because we handle pocket dimensions poorly, admittedly, but that's not your fault.

Debatable on his floating in the sky, as that is not 1 for 1 (the scenes aren't back to back, it's just an example of him amping up the weather stuff) and it could just be a perspective thing as we never actually see his feet there and he spends a good portion of the game on high buildings anyway. But I have an additional counter point towards the idea he actually shot Mamo, and the machine itself. Whenever Mamo takes damage or dies (which happens a lot as he doesn't care about it and have a lot of backups) the machine ALWAYS plays the same animation where a bullet hole shows up with the eyes on the top turning Exotropia. Means of death can differ however that is a constant thing due to the machine and Mamo being mentally linked (this dude is a very weird amalgamation of high-end technology, magic, psychic, among many other traits). Since the machine doesn't do that there should be no reason to believe a Mamo clone died there. (You can kinda see it in the original cloud feat as one of the hands is still active, though if you are pressed on that I should be able to find an example showing the machine full view. It's just annoying since I have to go through a bunch of videos to find a singular example that could be anywhere or nowhere)

Also, if he shot the guy, wouldn't floating we'd see his body in the sky as he's dying?

Do they show him not floating in the sky in the interim scenes? Regarding the second bit, I don't know what an Exotropia is, although a bullet hole does show up on the screen. He shot something. What is the button thing in the scene that Lupin punches? It seems to go into the storm for a bit, I'm confused as to what the hell is going on with that.

We're far enough zoomed out that it seems reasonable the 3.5 foot goblin man would be functionally imperceptible and my impression of the game is that it isn't very intent on high fidelity graphics

As for the robot size, it definitely is contradicted as even with that game specifically the head is like 1.5 stories high (the background are buildings, it's flying down a street at high speeds). As for the moon splash, I have no context for how it's meant to look. The full splash isn't even seen as while the initial impact is low it's immediately followed by a 2nd bigger one that covers the entire screen which has no visible end. The verse is very hard to gauge at times since it sometimes just ignores physics for things while other times choosing to just incorporate real world quantum physics to other things (still have a migraine on that shit). What would I need to find to support it, as in most examples the verse is meant to be the exact same as our own with the main differences being either advanced technology or mythologies actually existing. Things like the cosmos are largely untouched from real world standards with the only exception I can think of being 2 examples which either imply or outright state that alien life exist somewhere.

Like would having comparing shots between the earth, moon, and the sun be considered viable? This verse is so many ways into unorthodox that I wouldn't be surprised at this point if Mamo's gigantic brain which tanked a nuke is viable evidence for the moon being the moon. (Though looking at it, wouldn't be surprised if that shit inflated the numbers higher). I just went with the normal moon's size because it's the simplest, most straightforward, and gives the most general idea possible since there is no way the series has a consistent size reference for celestial bodies. This is just a thing that happens a lot with the franchise (I know I say that a good amount but at this point I'm just so used to it's nonsense), every time a giant thing appears it can alter in size to comedic amounts.

You're misunderstanding me. That specific scene doesn't show the robot as being particularly small, it's just preceded by a scene of a normal human guy. I agree the robot is very large, it's displayed as such.

Given it has repeatedly shown "moons" being destroyed, and those moons are different sizes, I don't think any comparison footage not from this specific game is meaningful. Like. The moon exists later, presumably that's never explained (I presume this because you haven't mentioned it, I figure you would if it were relevant), so my interpretation is that it isn't really the real moon, it's just something that's there.

No, I don't believe it's fair to call them equal in terms of usability. The Arcade Machine one doesn't have the moon drop right next to the character, preventing any real sense of distorted size to the casual eye, the arcade version causes massive environmental damage compared to the statement one which just plops on the ground with a far lighter splash, and the arcade one in general is depicted as grander than the statement version.

Actually, wait a minute. Where did you get 5 feet from? If it's for how long it took the moon to fall, then that's already accounted for in the feat as it's literally just the amount of force needed to push the moon at such high speeds. I was referring to the splash itself since I'd assume realistically there'd be a bunch of problems with the moon falling that fast but the series can often go on some Looney Toones logic at times and I can't exactly blame some random animator for not going 100% accurate for the moon falling down from orbit on what is at most a 15 second clip. I'm seeing characters swimming in space in their suits, defying the laws of gravity, and ignoring various accounts of physics, I'm not expecting many realistic events to occur at this point as toon force just exists in the verse and sometimes I just have to look at something and say "Yeah, that happened"

If it helps for the idea that the sword could be 5-A, the metal the Zantetsuken is made up of is said to have turned the tide of WW2 resulting in the win we have today. (Source, First Contact movie) While that sounds unimpressive on it's own, literally every single example of black hole weaponry in the franchise has Nazi fingerprints on em. (Source, The First movie + The Last Job movie) Which definitely paints an interesting picture of how the second world war was being played and how high the scale both sides were willing to go to win lol.

It genuinely does fall comparably close. The only distinction in usability is that the statement is feasibly not meant to be taken as literal, but rather a dramatization of what is being said, whereas the arcade may intended to be literal. Regardless, it isn't full moon sized either way, so.

I made it up, it was a figure conjured to say "it barely falls". It plummets ever so briefly and impacts the ocean, creating waves very much comparable to its full size.

You don't need a 5-A sword to win WW2. You haven't presented black hole technology in this thread, so I find the later claims hard to work with, but even if taken as real and true, there's a litany of issues with this line of reasoning that prevent its use, most prevalent perhaps is that it depends on like three assumptions to get us from Point A to Point B. Without explicit confirmation that this sword scales to a black hole, there's no real reason to this line of dialogue, I think.

 

[Detective_Blizzard]

that's fully not a feat

Yeah, I'm aware

Eyeballing the feats, I would find it hard to believe most of those are 7-C. I assume by phrasing that they are as of yet uncalculated, as well, so it doesn't seem productive to continue on about them.

Most things in the verse are uncalculated. The verse is severely lacking in manpower and I have to work with what I have, I'm lucky to have gotten these few calcs in the first place. As for eyeballing, I don't see how that's a safe estimation (hell, arguably underestimation). The lightning has the clouds moving at an absurd speed which based on the context of the game is covering all of Tokyo (Takes place during the Olympics of that time), I can see the fire feat being more questionable as that have more variables so fair enough, and the pocket dimension is entirely referencing Mamo's own base with is it's own large city where countless historic pieces are located (can't showcase any close up stuff because that has real world artistic nudity).

Oh. Yeah that straight up is not a black hole, it shouldn't have been calculated as one. I wish the scene showing him alive showed the context of how he was alive- I'm working with only the clips provided, but the sequence of events here is Lupin activates the atomizing weapon -> The weapon begins to eat away at the helicopter/Lupin himself over, say, a thirty second timespan, during which it's only sucking out bits of Lupin's feet -> The weapon begins tossing around the environment, picking up boulders and people and such (including flinging Lupin/the helicopter offscreen) -> Lupin appears later, miraculously unchanged. Without an explanation as to what the hell happened... I don't know. The feat is much lower than the OP suggests either way, I find it implausible it's usable, but I will pivot to neutral, leaning to disagree for now on using it.

I'm not an expert on it and the one piece of help that I got thought it would. As for your order of operations...... welcome to my life, most things in this verse come with very weird asterisks because half the time it feels like I'm trying to scale actual looney toones characters and the other half of the time I don't have half a clue what I'm scaling anymore. Unironically there were talks with the few knowledgeable who-knows-how-long-ago about if the cast should have a varies rating due to how inconsistent things get. Didn't get anywhere though since there needs to be narrative reasons for it and toon-force on it's own isn't a viable argument for that tier. Resulting in the very weird mixture you see here were we have the high feats of recent eras and the low feats of old era, with various of the few calculations we have for just 9-A having comedic effects to them. (Hell, with your logic that feat is probably unusable because they hid under a table + they were inside a house).

This is the full unedited context from the point Lupin flies off into the air to the clip where he just shows back up. This franchise is a goofy cartoon comedy and we are literally not meant to put this much thought into these things most of the time, hence why feats can just vary so much.

Do you have a calc for this, acknowledging distance from epicenter, and can that calc be readily adjusted to account for a helicopter. Can you then show something like, I dunno, a character barehand punching a helicopter, and destroying it? This proposed tier is solely for the physicals of a character, so this would be the necessary ammunition to begin a conversation on "This character scales to the durability of this helicopter".

Kinda, but it's the exact same issue as the first black hole as it likely doesn't have the properties needed to be counted as one despite it's destructive capabilities with it being stated to be capable of destroying the world. Calculations also entirely in another language so that was fun to translate, (No idea if that calculation takes those things into account as I didn't ask the OP for it, since I felt that feat was too wild. I am trying to stay conservative with these numbers if you could believe me) as for characters destroying a helicopter that argument wasn't for physicals but equipment as guns can one-shot those things, helicopters are barley a threat in the verse.

Though now that you mention it, Jigen did rip the top off of a military copter in one scene after failing to shoot him through the glass. (I can only operate with what I've personally reviewed in the series, which is still lacking in the greater picture due to the sheer volume)

To be clear, because I feel you're taking this the wrong way: 8-B isn't a value I approve of, nor is it one you can use as yet. All feats need calculated. When I say "I could believe 8-B", I'm saying that in my experience as a Calc Group Member, and without putting the actual math to it, I could believe it reaches such a height. The rest of that really should have evidence presented (as in, proving the specifics of the pocket dimension, the size and scope of it, etc), because as of current presentations, I consider this the best feat given in this thread because we handle pocket dimensions poorly, admittedly, but that's not your fault.

I'm not saying that you are approving a value, I'm just saying "I'm 12 ways up shit-creek right now with the amount of help I get in this series, with the proposed numbers being the best I can do without everything looking incredibly poor quality wise". As anything less would result in a bunch of "higher, far higher, even higher" for things which makes things look very bad. For example in Lupin's case "X for Physicals, Higher with guns, Far higher with Lupin Robo, Far higher in Super Arrest Rush, Far Higher with Zantetsuken" and that's not accounting for anything other stronger weaponry in-between and only mentioning the big important stuff.

Do they show him not floating in the sky in the interim scenes? Regarding the second bit, I don't know what an Exotropia is, although a bullet hole does show up on the screen. He shot something. What is the button thing in the scene that Lupin punches? It seems to go into the storm for a bit, I'm confused as to what the hell is going on with that.

Nope, he doesn't show up at all. Mamo is the type of character who likes fighting from far away and utilizes minions most of the time. Exotropia is the opposite of cross-eyed, where the eyes point in opposite directions. The bullet hole in the scene is for Lupin escaping the barrier he's currently contained in (the thing he's punching) and the button is the "Mamo button" which is on the arcade machine itself as I have no bloody clue if it has any special properties in-universe. As for you being confused as to what the hell is going on, I heavily sympathize with you because I run into something like that in like every project I do for the series. The franchise really hates explaining stuff that's not just pure intelligence and context for things can typically be amounted to "what you see is the context".

We're far enough zoomed out that it seems reasonable the 3.5 foot goblin man would be functionally imperceptible and my impression of the game is that it isn't very intent on high fidelity graphics

You'd be right about the game not being that intent on such things, however the animation I showed is literally the default death animation anytime the character is killed. The context for that one is that he died to Goemon's blade, which doesn't obliterate character or create bullet wounds. However the sky is completely clear and if the Moon feat is any indication they would've shown Mamo in the sky if that was the intention, range be damned, or cut towards his body after the scene (that doesn't happen, that is just the end of the scene as indicated by the winning numbers)

You're misunderstanding me. That specific scene doesn't show the robot as being particularly small, it's just preceded by a scene of a normal human guy. I agree the robot is very large, it's displayed as such.

Then maybe I just don't know what you're trying to say at this point, I don't know anymore

Given it has repeatedly shown "moons" being destroyed, and those moons are different sizes, I don't think any comparison footage not from this specific game is meaningful. Like. The moon exists later, presumably that's never explained (I presume this because you haven't mentioned it, I figure you would if it were relevant), so my interpretation is that it isn't really the real moon, it's just something that's there.

Only 1 moon has been destroyed, the one in the clip. The other example is just a statement thing that shows narratively smart characters (aka the people making this stuff) believe he could do that. The comparing shots was just showing the moon relative to everything else. As for the moon still existing, you simply never asked. Just like everything else in the franchise, no direct answers in sight however time manipulation and plot manipulation exist, so there are means for it to return.

And no, this franchise doesn't get any simpler. It does get this confusing when you look at modern material for it regardless of where you go.

I made it up, it was a figure conjured to say "it barely falls". It plummets ever so briefly and impacts the ocean, creating waves very much comparable to its full size.

Fair

You don't need a 5-A sword to win WW2. You haven't presented black hole technology in this thread, so I find the later claims hard to work with, but even if taken as real and true, there's a litany of issues with this line of reasoning that prevent its use, most prevalent perhaps is that it depends on like three assumptions to get us from Point A to Point B. Without explicit confirmation that this sword scales to a black hole, there's no real reason to this line of dialogue, I think.

Both the things I was saying were black holes were the ones I was referring to. The verse is filled with older technology which totally eclipses anything actually there for the time (Largely because a certain goblin perfected cloning 10,000 years ago and decided to intervene with the world and cause basically all of human history to happen) man There is no direct confirmation of the sword being superior to black holes and the only quantum physics stuff it interacts with are the previously mentioned Time Crystals. Which is an entirely different conversation which..... is also very confusing and can lead to like 4 different end conversations, but at least it's a movie.

I apologize if this was a literal waste of time, I am just really trying to work with what I can as I am the only person really revising this franchise and I am not nearly smart enough to calculate the things needed nor fully understand the abstract or quantum nature of many of the modern things that happen just because (and for all I know is actual cartoon nonsense). This is legit the only feat I have of the modern series because in most scenarios of the verse the modern cast are playing on easy mode and just no/low-diffing everyone around them with them not typically running into high-end stuff, and when they do it's either highly abstract and likely not scaling or it's some weird stuff like literal archangels from heaven telling Fujiko to steal the corpse of Lucifer (yes, that is an episode). Even that comes with various "but"s such as "but we don't know how big it is relative", "but we don't see Lupin get crushed directly", "but it's technically a cognitive version of him copied from his history and data, so while it's an exact 1 for 1 it's technically not even him", and yes weird stuff like that final example happen a lot.

If none of this works, fine, the verse will stay at it's level (because I literally can't do anything to help in that). The plate is filled enough because of that cognitive stuff I mentioned in the last paragraph making for some of the most absurd pocket dimension stuff I've personally seen that's not entirely text based. Alongside remaking all the profiles from the ground up. Alongside adding all the equipment and abilities for the verse (way too many). Alongside giving better descriptions for the stuff still here (unironically some of this stuff is just blatantly wrong). Alongside checking my own errors half the time because sometimes I miss simple details like the fact Bincam doesn't have Hand to Hand combat despite having it or Barrier manipulation because his smoke was somehow capable of blocking a bullet near the end here (yes, if you look closely you can see the bullet bounce off and fall down mid-air). I'll just stick to what I do best and idk pray for miracles or something.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Most things in the verse are uncalculated. The verse is severely lacking in manpower and I have to work with what I have, I'm lucky to have gotten these few calcs in the first place. As for eyeballing, I don't see how that's a safe estimation (hell, arguably underestimation). The lightning has the clouds moving at an absurd speed which based on the context of the game is covering all of Tokyo (Takes place during the Olympics of that time), I can see the fire feat being more questionable as that have more variables so fair enough, and the pocket dimension is entirely referencing Mamo's own base with is it's own large city where countless historic pieces are located (can't showcase any close up stuff because that has real world artistic nudity).

...Can you tell me when exactly it's causing this storm cloud to move? The lightning seems to just be happening? It's a busy scene, so I accept that I may be missing something, but the lightning on all accounts appears to just be occurring in-tandem with the storm.

I'm not an expert on it and the one piece of help that I got thought it would. As for your order of operations...... welcome to my life, most things in this verse come with very weird asterisks because half the time it feels like I'm trying to scale actual looney toones characters and the other half of the time I don't have half a clue what I'm scaling anymore. Unironically there were talks with the few knowledgeable who-knows-how-long-ago about if the cast should have a varies rating due to how inconsistent things get. Didn't get anywhere though since there needs to be narrative reasons for it and toon-force on it's own isn't a viable argument for that tier. Resulting in the very weird mixture you see here were we have the high feats of recent eras and the low feats of old era, with various of the few calculations we have for just 9-A having comedic effects to them. (Hell, with your logic that feat is probably unusable because they hid under a table + they were inside a house).

This is the full unedited context from the point Lupin flies off into the air to the clip where he just shows back up. This franchise is a goofy cartoon comedy and we are literally not meant to put this much thought into these things most of the time, hence why feats can just vary so much.

Yeah, that's fair, in that the scene provides no context. The atomizing thing was hitting him though, he was being atomized, just at the incredibly slow rate that the thing affects objects. I'm iffy on using it, s'pose I'm neutral.

Kinda, but it's the exact same issue as the first black hole as it likely doesn't have the properties needed to be counted as one despite it's destructive capabilities with it being stated to be capable of destroying the world. Calculations also entirely in another language so that was fun to translate, (No idea if that calculation takes those things into account as I didn't ask the OP for it, since I felt that feat was too wild. I am trying to stay conservative with these numbers if you could believe me) as for characters destroying a helicopter that argument wasn't for physicals but equipment as guns can one-shot those things, helicopters are barley a threat in the verse.

Though now that you mention it, Jigen did rip the top off of a military copter in one scene after failing to shoot him through the glass. (I can only operate with what I've personally reviewed in the series, which is still lacking in the greater picture due to the sheer volume)

c'mon man, you can't say they one-shot helicopters when the scene is two-shotting the helicopter's fuel, causing it to explode- it's incredible marksmanship but this is how it works in real life
As for the second thing, by saying this do you mean to say that you haven't seen the thing this scene comes from? If so, fair enough, if not, I'd like to know more about what's actually happening in the scene, what precedes it, etc.

I'm not saying that you are approving a value, I'm just saying "I'm 12 ways up shit-creek right now with the amount of help I get in this series, with the proposed numbers being the best I can do without everything looking incredibly poor quality wise". As anything less would result in a bunch of "higher, far higher, even higher" for things which makes things look very bad. For example in Lupin's case "X for Physicals, Higher with guns, Far higher with Lupin Robo, Far higher in Super Arrest Rush, Far Higher with Zantetsuken" and that's not accounting for anything other stronger weaponry in-between and only mentioning the big important stuff.

I appreciate that you're doing this on your own, I get it. I've handled a lot of verses, some very old with very outlying materials. I understand the position. Still, I disagree with a lot of the proposed values and ideas you have in regards to these feats, and it is that way whether you're one man or a legion of dudes working on the verse. Most of these feats are not represented in what I'd call a fair way.

Nope, he doesn't show up at all. Mamo is the type of character who likes fighting from far away and utilizes minions most of the time. Exotropia is the opposite of cross-eyed, where the eyes point in opposite directions. The bullet hole in the scene is for Lupin escaping the barrier he's currently contained in (the thing he's punching) and the button is the "Mamo button" which is on the arcade machine itself as I have no bloody clue if it has any special properties in-universe. As for you being confused as to what the hell is going on, I heavily sympathize with you because I run into something like that in like every project I do for the series. The franchise really hates explaining stuff that's not just pure intelligence and context for things can typically be amounted to "what you see is the context".

Alright, in that case I'm sticking with the simpler set of assumptions. It sucks but it's what we got.

You'd be right about the game not being that intent on such things, however the animation I showed is literally the default death animation anytime the character is killed. The context for that one is that he died to Goemon's blade, which doesn't obliterate character or create bullet wounds. However the sky is completely clear and if the Moon feat is any indication they would've shown Mamo in the sky if that was the intention, range be damned, or cut towards his body after the scene (that doesn't happen, that is just the end of the scene as indicated by the winning numbers)

I'm sorry man. You're making me feel like a contrarian but I just can't agree with this line of reasoning, speculating on author intent in a franchise that you have repeatedly noted to be inconsistent and off-the-tracks. Given the set of data available, I have a hard time believing the alternative interpretation. There's bits of speculation that can go one way or another- the function of the "mamo" button you mentioned, for example- but for the most part I find this to be down to a rather unnervingly large series of assumptions. One is smaller than the other, that's the one I go with, Occam's Razor like.

Only 1 moon has been destroyed, the one in the clip. The other example is just a statement thing that shows narratively smart characters (aka the people making this stuff) believe he could do that. The comparing shots was just showing the moon relative to everything else. As for the moon still existing, you simply never asked. Just like everything else in the franchise, no direct answers in sight however time manipulation and plot manipulation exist, so there are means for it to return.

And no, this franchise doesn't get any simpler. It does get this confusing when you look at modern material for it regardless of where you go.

Right, but it shows a moon getting destroyed, and that moon is also variably sized. So like. The franchise just doesn't keep a clear idea of how large a celestial object is, and in this instance, shows a "moon" that is comparatively very small. I can't sign off on the feat being 5-A when it does that.

Both the things I was saying were black holes were the ones I was referring to. The verse is filled with older technology which totally eclipses anything actually there for the time (Largely because a certain goblin perfected cloning 10,000 years ago and decided to intervene with the world and cause basically all of human history to happen) man There is no direct confirmation of the sword being superior to black holes and the only quantum physics stuff it interacts with are the previously mentioned Time Crystals. Which is an entirely different conversation which..... is also very confusing and can lead to like 4 different end conversations, but at least it's a movie.

I apologize if this was a literal waste of time, I am just really trying to work with what I can as I am the only person really revising this franchise and I am not nearly smart enough to calculate the things needed nor fully understand the abstract or quantum nature of many of the modern things that happen just because (and for all I know is actual cartoon nonsense). This is legit the only feat I have of the modern series because in most scenarios of the verse the modern cast are playing on easy mode and just no/low-diffing everyone around them with them not typically running. Even that comes with various "but"s such as "but we don't know how big it is relative", "but we don't see Lupin get crushed directly", "but it's technically a cognitive version of him copied from his history and data, so while it's an exact 1 for 1 it's technically not even him", and yes weird stuff like that final example happen a lot.

If none of this works, fine, the verse will stay at it's level (because I literally can't do anything to help in that). The plate is filled enough because of that cognitive stuff I mentioned in the last paragraph making for some of the most absurd pocket dimension stuff I've personally seen that's not entirely text based. Alongside remaking all the profiles from the ground up. Alongside adding all the equipment and abilities for the verse (way too many). Alongside giving better descriptions for the stuff still here (unironically some of this stuff is just blatantly wrong). Alongside checking my own errors half the time because sometimes I miss simple details like the fact Bincam doesn't have Hand to Hand combat despite having it or Barrier manipulation because his smoke was somehow capable of blocking a bullet near the end here (yes, if you look closely you can see the bullet bounce off and fall down mid-air). I'll just stick to what I do best and idk pray for miracles or something.

It's not a waste of time, I don't think, I only hope you understand where I'm coming from on these. I'm not certain you do on all points.

The iceberg feat is probably something, although not as high tiering as this thread would seek out, I think. Accounting for surface area, it definitely is much lower than 7-C (perhaps this is obvious and doesn't need saying, but I'm saying it anyways, har har).

My end opinion on the thread, if this is all, is that... it almost certainly isn't 7-C, or higher. Some of the feats are at least up in the air, but dissecting them sucks, they're questionable as is, and you absolutely need approved calculations for them. That is the crux of a lot of these, I can only really operate on eyeballing them to say "I think this is/isn't this tier". I think the verse could be higher than 9-A/8-C, and some of it very obviously is. That moon cutting feat isn't 5-A, that is certain, but you may be able to figure out a way to scale its size, and I reckon it'd be decently above 8-C- I acknowledge this is a "god tier" thing, but still, it's just an example. These feats are not collectively worthless, they have merit, just not quite what is proposed in this thread.

That's my take. I reject the thread as it is now.

 

[Detective_Blizzard]

...Can you tell me when exactly it's causing this storm cloud to move? The lightning seems to just be happening? It's a busy scene, so I accept that I may be missing something, but the lightning on all accounts appears to just be occurring in-tandem with the storm.

Mamo's power, as shown previously his lightning magic and weather stuff kinda go and in hand with one another. No there aren't any other indicators for this scene, yes I hate this fact.

Yeah, that's fair, in that the scene provides no context. The atomizing thing was hitting him though, he was being atomized, just at the incredibly slow rate that the thing affects objects. I'm iffy on using it, s'pose I'm neutral.

Additionally he is physically holding the weapon in place as the force it generates seemingly causes it to move on it's own (Albeit barley holding on)

c'mon man, you can't say they one-shot helicopters when the scene is two-shotting the helicopter's fuel, causing it to explode- it's incredible marksmanship but this is how it works in real life
As for the second thing, by saying this do you mean to say that you haven't seen the thing this scene comes from? If so, fair enough, if not, I'd like to know more about what's actually happening in the scene, what precedes it, etc.

Lol, the 2nd example is a one shot but fair enough still more than what the mountain obliterator did

As for the 2nd thing, I did see that thing. It's just that there are 50 bloody movies, OVAs, TV Specials, ect ect and i have only seen a very small sliver of those as of now as I'm focused on getting the profiles actually operational as the profiles barley has anything that happened in the last 30 years. Because of these facts, there is a metric ton of feats and examples currently lost and unknown RN which makes things so much harder as everything you see is are gifs and videos made by own hands, with the examples you ask for usually being made in real time. The context behind that scene is that Jigen was flying a blimp which was shot down by the helicopter, so he decided to just jump out of his machine, land on the copter, try (and fail) to shoot the operator or alternatively try and break the glass so he gets in (and fail), and decides 'Screw it, I'm ripping the top of the helicopter off'. What happens after is he sees Goemon in the background, which distracts him long enough for the helicopter to quickly pivot and knock him off. While falling down he proceeds to gun down the helicopter mid-fall with only one shot landing. (The helicopter somehow survives this and shows up very shortly after without any fire, your guess is as good as mine on how the hell that happened because nothing implies it's a different one as Goemon is still inside this thing)

I appreciate that you're doing this on your own, I get it. I've handled a lot of verses, some very old with very outlying materials. I understand the position. Still, I disagree with a lot of the proposed values and ideas you have in regards to these feats, and it is that way whether you're one man or a legion of dudes working on the verse. Most of these feats are not represented in what I'd call a fair way.

Fair enough, I suppose

Alright, in that case I'm sticking with the simpler set of assumptions. It sucks but it's what we got.

Fair enough, I suppose

I'm sorry man. You're making me feel like a contrarian but I just can't agree with this line of reasoning, speculating on author intent in a franchise that you have repeatedly noted to be inconsistent and off-the-tracks. Given the set of data available, I have a hard time believing the alternative interpretation. There's bits of speculation that can go one way or another- the function of the "mamo" button you mentioned, for example- but for the most part I find this to be down to a rather unnervingly large series of assumptions. One is smaller than the other, that's the one I go with, Occam's Razor like.

For this specific account, it's not speculation as it legit happens in every single scenario where the character is killed. Nothing suggests that he's in the sky himself with there being no indication that he's been physically inflicted by the set of events. I do truly feel like trying to say Mamo was shot in that clip is the less straight forward approach as you are basically trying to put in factors that aren't directly shown and factors that the game itself would normally showcase (Seriously, I've seen that stock death clip and herd Mamo's death cry so often that it's unmistakable.) I do not know how to convince you that the floating head isn't literally him/he's not physically there unless other illusionary examples or him being a telepath work.

Right, but it shows a moon getting destroyed, and that moon is also variably sized. So like. The franchise just doesn't keep a clear idea of how large a celestial object is, and in this instance, shows a "moon" that is comparatively very small. I can't sign off on the feat being 5-A when it does that.

I love dealing with a verse with the consistency of Looney Toones.

It's not a waste of time, I don't think, I only hope you understand where I'm coming from on these. I'm not certain you do on all points.

I feel like it is, because from with how this is looking the profiles are going to be unchanged, the calculations are going to likely be forgotten, and the odds of me getting any help on these factors are impossibly low. I could have been spending said time working on the Modern Update which is basically rebuilding everything from the ground up with the new modern stuff added alongside it. I understand where you are coming from on all accounts, it's just I fundamentally disagree on a few (The cloud thing especially, I strongly am against the idea Mamo was in anyway physically there in that scene as there is no implications anywhere which are normally found within that game.)

The iceberg feat is probably something, although not as high tiering as this thread would seek out, I think. Accounting for surface area, it definitely is much lower than 7-C (perhaps this is obvious and doesn't need saying, but I'm saying it anyways, har har).

Yeah, figured. Just kinda sucks that I see the verse at various moments do high-end shit and then have to walk away with everything still being 9-A despite the fact that it just actually doesn't follow how the series presents itself. Hell 8-B for the blade at this point, even without the moon stuff, still feels very low for the kind of things that are just there in the verse for no reason.

My end opinion on the thread, if this is all, is that... it almost certainly isn't 7-C, or higher. Some of the feats are at least up in the air, but dissecting them sucks, they're questionable as is, and you absolutely need approved calculations for them. That is the crux of a lot of these, I can only really operate on eyeballing them to say "I think this is/isn't this tier". I think the verse could be higher than 9-A/8-C, and some of it very obviously is. That moon cutting feat isn't 5-A, that is certain, but you may be able to figure out a way to scale its size, and I reckon it'd be decently above 8-C- I acknowledge this is a "god tier" thing, but still, it's just an example. These feats are not collectively worthless, they have merit, just not quite what is proposed in this thread.

I just don't understand the moon needing to be downsized to such an absurd length when in most scenarios it's the exact same as our own and the main issue is the physics behind it, which for a verse that has FTL feats and toon-force isn't that much of a stretch to believe in such things. Hell Popeye has stellar feats despite his sun being comically small and Courage the Dog is stellar with screaming despite the sun straight up running on the same logic here in the example they use. So it just kinda feels wrong for this to be gatekept when other feats from ridiculous shows are given a pass when I'm stuck with real world physics because some animator didn't know how to properly animate the moon falling into the planet in a 15 second clip. (I would use Looney Toones as another example, but their stuff is varies anyway so it's kinda meh. But unironically those celestial bodies would be tiny if we were applying these standards to them despite them being referenced for the cosmic level of the cast)

That's my take. I reject the thread as it is now.

Fair enough, I'll just go back to working on the modern update. Only other thing in revision time is the cognitive one which doesn't effect physical stats at all but does give them mental resistances which honestly just makes everything in here look tiny, assuming that is actually accepted and not denied for some reason like "we don't actually see stars up close" or something.