Mahito vs Santa Claus

[Arkenis]

Have I added all the votes or am I missing some

 

[LaserPrecision]

Have I added all the votes or am I missing some

I believe so

 

[Hiiilt]

So all I'm really seeing for evidence that she's going to swap bodies to avoid Domain or being touched is her simply claiming she could. Not showing that she does so in-character early on. I don't feel there's any reason to continue the debate on body-swapping when it's clear she doesn't use it as often.

it's a ability she has and that she says time and time again that she is going to use, she just never has the opportunity due to the circunstances of the fight so i don't think it's fair to discard one of her main abilities just because of that

sure, it isn't her starting move but it also isn't some kind of attack that she refuses to use

And Mahito can create a speed blitz amp via his shapeshifting. Something I mentioned much earlier on.

his speed amp will be useful depending on how far away they are from each other

if they're just some meters apart? it's going to be very useful but if they're more than 50-60 meters apart from each other it's not going to so useful(his profile doesn't even say how fast he becomes with this speed amp but i assume it's enough to speed blitz her dolls, right?)

In a small school hallway where he can easily blow them away with Transfigured humans,

being in a small hallway also give her dolls a advantage since mahito will have way less room to dodge them and his transfigurated humans are going to be turned into dolls with one touch

shapeshifting (to small creatures with flight),

they're inside a school and her dolls have surface scaling i don't think flight will be useful

and blitzing (Via shapeshifting again).

that's a good point, that's one of the motives i don't think it would be impossible for him to touch her(just difficult)

They're only gonna be tens of meters apart at most. Mahito is clearing that extremely quick. The fact it was argued that Mahito would fail to land even a single touch on her because "Dolls" is absurd to me. Will it be easy? No. Will it be impossible? Definitely not.

i'm not saying it would be impossible, i even say that it's possible for him to touch her, i just think that it would be very diifficulty

The first thing that happens when we see her is she gets attacked directly by Denji. Then goes to hide in a building and Quanxi follows her and beats her up there for a while. Then when night time comes? She immediately goes after Denji and doesn't attempt hiding even once. The whole next chapter is her just beating up on Denji by herself and with dolls. Not a single instance of hiding (Or trying to swap bodies to save herself from being ensnared).

So she's not going to be hiding the entire fight while her dolls pester Mahito. She'll be out in the open, and resort to hiding later based on what I've seen.

chapter 58: she sends one of he perfect dolls to turn people into dolls while she is far away with tolka

chapter 59:she sends her dolls to attack denji, power and some other devil hunters while she is in the park

chapter 62: she sends tolka inside a building to curse and kill denji while she is hidden somewhere

chapter 63: she makes 'grandpa'(one of her dolls) send everyone that was inside the building to hell while she watches from outside

chapter 64: she controls tolka and makes him go to hell to talk with the darkness devil while she is on earth waiting for the DD flesh

chapter 67 and 68:she was going to attack makima(her target) but denji attacked her first, she threw him away and let her dolls fight him and quanxi while she was inside a building, quanxi found her in that building so she gave her dolls their mind back...denji started feeling guilty and this forced quanxi to leave santa alone and go save denji, after that she tried to make a surprise attack on quanxi but it didn't work since hybrids have layered resistance to transmutation, after santa claus transformed she didn't even try to fight quanxi and just sent her new dolls to attack quanxi

chapter 69:she was forced to engage in combat with denji because denji was holding her with his chains

Well the one who made the match-up was under the impression they started tens of meters away. I imagine they start that far away at most.

i think it would be better if the op told us exactly how far away they are from each other

(And Denji beating Quanxi isn't even impressive. I covered this in another thread).

denji has never defeated quanxi

 

[Arkenis]

i think it would be better if the op told us exactly how far away they are from each other

I’ll clear it up. And no it won’t be tens of meters. Its a school not just a hallway. Both characters have fought starting off 100m away before in combat scenarios.

 

[Hiiilt]

I’ll clear it up. And no it won’t be tens of meters. Its a school not just a hallway. Both characters have fought starting off 100m away before in combat scenarios.

in that case i believe santa claus has the advantage

mahito speed amp won't be so useful, the fight happens inside a school so mahito will have less room to dodge, she can use her dolls to distract him(he doesn't have enough transfigurated humans to deal with them + they're gonna be turned into dolls), the moment mahito uses his abilities santa claus is going to know since she has a hivemind with her dolls, mahito can't transfigurate her dolls and they have enough durability to survive his attacks(and they can survive mortal injuries since they're dolls)

santa claus has 3 wincons letting her dolls touch him(even if he manages to manipulate his soul and make his body go back to normal he still doesnt resist her mind control or body puppetry), wearing him down(her dolls have immortality type 2 and fought against denji, quanxi and the other devil hunters for a entire day so they def have more stamina) or possibly bfr(she only used it once so her other wincons are more likely)

mahito only wincons are touching by using his speed amp(extremely difficulty due to the distance + her dolls that will get in his way) and possibly his de(but he would have to reach her first since his de doesn't have enough range to reach her unless he gets close)

 

[LaserPrecision]

it's a ability she has and that she says time and time again that she is going to use, she just never has the opportunity due to the circunstances of the fight so i don't think it's fair to discard one of her main abilities just because of that

sure, it isn't her starting move but it also isn't some kind of attack that she refuses to use

As long as we agree it's not a starting move, we're on the same boat. I don't think it should be entirely discarded. I just don't think it's likely to happen before Mahito either
1. Lands a hand on her
2. Catches her in a Domain Expansion

his speed amp will be useful depending on how far away they are from each other

if they're just some meters apart? it's going to be very useful but if they're more than 50-60 meters apart from each other it's not going to so useful(his profile doesn't even say how fast he becomes with this speed amp but i assume it's enough to speed blitz her dolls, right?)

Yes, it's enough to blitz the dolls. It let him perception blitz Nanami whom he was physically inferior to at the time:

being in a small hallway also give her dolls a advantage since mahito will have way less room to dodge them and his transfigurated humans are going to be turned into dolls with one touch

He was able to evade numerous homing lasers chasing him around for an extended period of time with his shapeshifting factor. I doubt mindless puppets are going to be much trouble in terms of impeding his navigation. He can shrink and escape their view, create distractions/imposters to take their attention off of him, blitz past them, etc.

And his transfigured humans being converted to puppets won't be an issue. Their sole purpose would be to blast every other puppet out of his way by launching them as projectiles. Worst case scenario, he can playfully skip down the hall transfiguring puppets into stock he can use. Not like he needs to worry about them since they don't possess the means to permanently incapacitate him, let alone kill him.

they're inside a school and her dolls have surface scaling i don't think flight will be useful

When he transforms into an incredibly small bird and all the dolls lose sight of him, it will be pretty easy to navigate through them.

i'm not saying it would be impossible, i even say that it's possible for him to touch her, i just think that it would be very diifficulty

How difficult? So difficult he literally doesn't land a single hit before passing out from exhaustion or something?

chapter 58: she sends one of he perfect dolls to turn people into dolls while she is far away with tolka

chapter 59:she sends her dolls to attack denji, power and some other devil hunters while she is in the park

chapter 62: she sends tolka inside a building to curse and kill denji while she is hidden somewhere

chapter 63: she makes 'grandpa'(one of her dolls) send everyone that was inside the building to hell while she watches from outside

chapter 64: she controls tolka and makes him go to hell to talk with the darkness devil while she is on earth waiting for the DD flesh

chapter 67 and 68:she was going to attack makima(her target) but denji attacked her first, she threw him away and let her dolls fight him and quanxi while she was inside a building, quanxi found her in that building so she gave her dolls their mind back...denji started feeling guilty and this forced quanxi to leave santa alone and go save denji, after that she tried to make a surprise attack on quanxi but it didn't work since hybrids have layered resistance to transmutation, after santa claus transformed she didn't even try to fight quanxi and just sent her new dolls to attack quanxi

chapter 69:she was forced to engage in combat with denji because denji was holding her with his chains

You see, the issue with these is that several of these chapters are before she made the contract with the Darkness Devil. Her way of fighting entirely shifted when she was gifted some of the power from a Primordial Devil. Thus why she was far more leaning to sending dolls to attack or attacking herself without resorting to hiding unlike before.

67: She only "hides" in the building because Denji knocked her into the building while they were fighting. The dolls only knocked Denji out of the building. She didn't actively run away in hide inside that building. That's why Quanxi found her so easily (Also, where are you getting layered Transmutation from?).

I think this is proof she'll use dolls. Not proof that she'd just try and hide the entire time and never reveal herself. Which is what I've been arguing from the start.

denji has never defeated quanxi

Technically Pochita, my mistake.

I’ll clear it up. And no it won’t be tens of meters. Its a school not just a hallway. Both characters have fought starting off 100m away before in combat scenarios.

Then how far will they start? If they start a hundred meters apart in a school, they'd need to find each other first to even fight. And when you aren't even allowing something as fundamental as Cursed Energy in this match, it seems stacked against him (Which tbf, Ig isn't that bad).

in that case i believe santa claus has the advantage

mahito speed amp won't be so useful, the fight happens inside a school so mahito will have less room to dodge, she can use her dolls to distract him(he doesn't have enough transfigurated humans to deal with them + they're gonna be turned into dolls), the moment mahito uses his abilities santa claus is going to know since she has a hivemind with her dolls, mahito can't transfigurate her dolls and they have enough durability to survive his attacks(and they can survive mortal injuries since they're dolls)

santa claus has 3 wincons letting her dolls touch him(even if he manages to manipulate his soul and make his body go back to normal he still doesnt resist her mind control or body puppetry), wearing him down(her dolls have immortality type 2 and fought against denji, quanxi and the other devil hunters for a entire day so they def have more stamina) or possibly bfr(she only used it once so her other wincons are more likely)

mahito only wincons are touching by using his speed amp(extremely difficulty due to the distance + her dolls that will get in his way) and possibly his de(but he would have to reach her first since his de doesn't have enough range to reach her unless he gets close)

I mean, nothing stops either from just destroying the school in its entirey. Mahito blew up a Subway station while fighting Yuji and Todo. Dolls won't be an issue as they can't do any lasting "damage" to him, and he can simply transfigure them and store them inside himself to blast others out the way. Wouldn't have any difficulty navigating around them either.

Dollification wouldn't affect Mahito, full-stop. Santa's Dollification affects the body. Not the soul. Mahito's body is molded to the shape of his soul. If he's "dollified", his body will automatically transfigure itself to normal. And the body puppetry/mind control (Granted I feel this hax isn't even mind-control. Just transmutation/corruption and body puppetry) only occurs as a result of the transmutation/becoming a doll. That's why resistance to mind manipulation/body puppetry was removed from Hybrids in the Devil Physiology page. Because I brought up that exact point. If you can undo/aren't affected by becoming a doll, you don't need to wory about the others that are a direct result of becoming a doll. Sorcerer stamina is kinda weird. I doubt stamina would come into play during their battle. I find it highly unlikely it'd last over even a hour. I agree with what you stated about BFR.

You're grossly underestimating Mahito's ability to get close. Santa didn't fight a single person who couldn't get past her devils to fight her directly. And as they're destroyed and transfigured, she'll start running lower and lower on stock. Mahito who has more going for him than any other opponent she faced would easily be able to get close in touch her once.

The way I see it, they start off (perhaps on different floors?) in the school. Mahito plays around for a bit, converting dolls into stock to experiment with his power (If they're a hivemind, is it possible they share a soul? At worst, I feel they do. At best, they all have their own soul. If they share one though, all it takes is Mahito transfiguring one). Storing them away for later. After getting bored with the dolls, he would go searching for Santa herself, locating her either by her soul, or Cursed Energy (If Arkenis is actually willing to allow that). Smashes the school apart, closing the distance between the two and leaving her exposed to the open. Then shapeshifts into a form to close the gap between the two and transfigure her.

 

[LordGinSama]

Mahito FRA.

 

[Hiiilt]

He was able to evade numerous homing lasers chasing him around for an extended period of time with his shapeshifting factor. I doubt mindless puppets are going to be much trouble in terms of impeding his navigation.

they're not just mindless puppets tho, they learn and adapt while they are fighting

nakamura one shot the dolls with kon before they could react but after seeing it once they adapted and were able to dodge it with ease

He can shrink and escape their view, create distractions/imposters to take their attention off of him,

those impostors can't use transfiguration, right? aren't they just gonna become dolls too or get killed by them?

blitz past them, etc.

they're 100 meter apart he is just gonna meet more dolls on the way

they're in a school full of her dolls inevitably he is gonna have to directly fight them to reach santa

And his transfigured humans being converted to puppets won't be an issue. Their sole purpose would be to blast every other puppet out of his way by launching them as projectiles. Worst case scenario, he can playfully skip down the hall transfiguring puppets into stock he can use. Not like he needs to worry about them since they don't possess the means to permanently incapacitate him, let alone kill him.

When he transforms into an incredibly small bird and all the dolls lose sight of him, it will be pretty easy to navigate through them.

how small can he become? cuz if he isn't small enough nothing stops the dolls from following him

How difficult? So difficult he literally doesn't land a single hit before passing out from exhaustion or something?

so difficult that he won't just go throught her dolls like they're nothing but not to the point that she wins 100% of the time because of them

You see, the issue with these is that several of these chapters are before she made the contract with the Darkness Devil. Her way of fighting entirely shifted when she was gifted some of the power from a Primordial Devil. Thus why she was far more leaning to sending dolls to attack or attacking herself without resorting to hiding unlike before.

tbf she only engaged in close combat with denji while in her darkness form because he was right in front of her(and it was her mission to defeat him and mkm) while in this match they're 100 meters away

where are you getting layered Transmutation from?).

fiends resist transmutation but she is able to transform them into dolls in her darkness form(this isn't important in this match tho)

I mean, nothing stops either from just destroying the school in its entirey. Mahito blew up a Subway station while fighting Yuji and Todo. Dolls won't be an issue as they can't do any lasting "damage" to him, and he can simply transfigure them and store them inside himself to blast others out the way. Wouldn't have any difficulty navigating around them either.

they have higher ls so if they manage to hold him even for a second(like they did with denji) it would def be troublesome(he would inevitably be able to escape by shapeshifting tho)

he probably isn't gonna avoid them from the start since they can't harm his soul

You're grossly underestimating Mahito's ability to get close. Santa didn't fight a single person who couldn't get past her devils to fight her directly.

denji only managed to get close while she was at full power twice and that was because she had just transformed right in front of him and the other time it was because she was distracted with quanxi

And as they're destroyed and transfigured, she'll start running lower and lower on stock. Mahito who has more going for him than any other opponent she faced would easily be able to get close in touch her once.

she has been creating dolls for years i doubt he would be able to make her lose all of her dolls in a single night

The way I see it, they start off (perhaps on different floors?) in the school. Mahito plays around for a bit, converting dolls into stock to experiment with his power (If they're a hivemind, is it possible they share a soul? At worst, I feel they do. At best, they all have their own soul. If they share one though, all it takes is Mahito transfiguring one).

i don't think so, maybe she shares a soul with her "perfect dolls" but i don't think that her other dolls do

if he does what you said and start using his ability on her dolls santa is going to find out(due to their hivemind) and then she would have a motive to either switch bodies(to avoid him) or use bfr

 

[Hiiilt]

matches with santa claus are so annoying i must have said the word "dolls" a 100 times

 

[GunshyFever]

This match up is confusing, anyways how is Santa even going to harm Mahito?

 

[Hiiilt]

This match up is confusing, anyways how is Santa even going to harm Mahito?

I thought dollification would work but ig it won't due to mahito soul manipulation

I think her only wincon is bfr but she only did it once in the manga so idk if it's ooc or not

 

[LaserPrecision]

they're not just mindless puppets tho, they learn and adapt while they are fighting

nakamura one shot the dolls with kon before they could react but after seeing it once they adapted and were able to dodge it with ease

Fair enough. They don't seem to be very intelligent, but they can at least adapt.

those impostors can't use transfiguration, right? aren't they just gonna become dolls too or get killed by them?

Which is fine. Mahito could just sacrifice transfigured humans because it'll distract the puppets or get them out of his way.

Now that I think about it... could his Transfigured humans be dollified? Their souls are also warped. Something Santa's Dollification doesn't cover. Wouldn't their body change, but then they'd warp back into transfigured humans? Or just wouldn't transform to begin with?

But my main point is if he summons hundreds of transfigured humans, the dolls will be distracted for a good while. Or if a ton of them are blocking his way, he can blow them all away by using them as explosive projectiles.

they're 100 meter apart he is just gonna meet more dolls on the way

they're in a school full of her dolls inevitably he is gonna have to directly fight them to reach santa

If he's too fast for them to hit, I don't see why he'd have to stop and fight them. Especially when he can just distract them with hundreds of transfigured humans if he needs to. Or just transfigure them which happens like instantly. They buy at most seconds of time.

how small can he become? cuz if he isn't small enough nothing stops the dolls from following him

Pretty damn small. I'll show a few instances. Against Kokichi, he turns into a small mouse. When fighting Yuji and Nanami, he shrunk down enough to fit through a sewer lid. Split up into small balls. He should theoretically be able to shrink himself down to a size smaller than he can transfigure fragile human souls. Which is roughly smaller than a finger. Granted those scans are early on (And Mahito actively improves). And we're shown later they can be even smaller (Around the size of teeth).

He's also shown to be very good at escaping people's sight and sneaking away.

tbf she only engaged in close combat with denji while in her darkness form because he was right in front of her(and it was her mission to defeat him and mkm) while in this match they're 100 meters away

Which isn't an excuse. She could target him with her "countless" dolls to overwhelm him while hiding. Never risking revealing herself. But she chooses to. She didn't need to come out in person to kill Denji.

fiends resist transmutation but she is able to transform them into dolls in her darkness form(this isn't important in this match tho)

I'm pretty sure that was because they were already dead... It was stated before that Fiends are immune to her Dollification. If a fiend is killed, it's essentially just a corpse of a human. Don't see any reason to interpret that as layered transmutation (Unless she transmuted an alive fiend I forgot about).

they have higher ls so if they manage to hold him even for a second(like they did with denji) it would def be troublesome(he would inevitably be able to escape by shapeshifting tho)

he probably isn't gonna avoid them from the start since they can't harm his soul

I think he wouldn't avoid them from the start as they're a perfect opportunity to experiment with his power. Which he loves doing in-character, and is the reason for his absurd growth in the series. Though I think once he gets tired of that, he wouldn't have much trouble avoiding them. He can very easily clear out an area with a concussive blasts that sends tens if not hundreds of dolls flying out the building. And it'd be hard to touch the dude who transforms you via contact.

denji only managed to get close while she was at full power twice and that was because she had just transformed right in front of him and the other time it was because she was distracted with quanxi

Which is valid but... she didn't even attempt to try and run away from either using any sneaky tactics. She can swap bodies, order dolls to distract them (even if very briefly), and yet doesn't try either. The most she does is order dolls to attack them. But she doesn't use that opportunity to even hide. Hell, she came out physically to try and sneak-attack her. That doesn't seem like a person who wants to stay hidden and have their puppets do all the work.

she has been creating dolls for years i doubt he would be able to make her lose all of her dolls in a single night

That are scattered across the globe. She'll eventually run dry of dolls in their general vicinity.

i don't think so, maybe she shares a soul with her "perfect dolls" but i don't think that her other dolls do

if he does what you said and start using his ability on her dolls santa is going to find out(due to their hivemind) and then she would have a motive to either switch bodies(to avoid him) or use bfr

Why not the other dolls? They are a Hivemind after all. Connected to one being. Whatever pain she receives, she can distribute. Don't see why something inflicted on them wouldn't be inflicted onto her tbf. If it were just something that affected the body, sure. But Mahito warps the soul itself. And while I agree she'd have a bit more incentive to try and hide, she doesn't even know what his technique does. She would probably be under the impression she would be fine like how she believed she'd be fine with Cosmo's technique.

I think her only wincon is bfr but she only did it once in the manga so idk if it's ooc or not

I think if she's pushed against a corner long enough she might bust it out (Since when she did use it, it was only for one purpose). But I don't think it's likely to happen before Mahito touches her literally one time.

 

[Arkenis]

But my main point is if he summons hundreds of transfigured humans

He’s never done this or even something close to it.

 

[LaserPrecision]

He’s never done this or even something close to it.

During the Shibuya incident, he had accumulated hundreds in the train.

 

[Arkenis]

During the Shibuya incident, he had accumulated hundreds in the train.

You said summon, he didn’t summon those. Those were humans trapped in the train and Mahito went in there and soul maniped them all

 

[LaserPrecision]

You said summon, he didn’t summon those. Those were humans trapped in the train and Mahito went in there and soul maniped them all

I was referring to an earlier point where I said Mahito could stockpile Dolls from Santa and summon them when needed...

 

[Arkenis]

I was referring to an earlier point where I said Mahito could stockpile Dolls from Santa and summon them when needed...

How inconvenient is that during battle? He’s got a hundred plus dolls attacking him, he has to touch every single one to collect them and also shove them down his throat.

 

[LaserPrecision]

How inconvenient is that during battle? He’s got a hundred plus dolls attacking him, he has to touch every single one to collect them and also shove them down his throat.

Not very inconvenient? He can just run through hallways with his hands out touching everyone. And ingest them in some fashion (Don't see why he couldn't transfigure multiple mouths on his body). Not like the process takes stupid long or anything.

 

[LordGinSama]

Literally what the **** is Santa doing to Mahito's regeneration? And why are we acting like her Stealth Mastery is on some solid snake level shit?

 

[CiscoTheSoto]

Can Santa Claus touch Mahito at all? Wouldn't you need non-physical interaction to be able to see and interact with cursed spirits?

 

[Arkenis]

Can Santa Claus touch Mahito at all? Wouldn't you need non-physical interaction to be able to see and interact with cursed spirits?

No first grade and higher are physical. And I've addressed this invisibility thing a lot lol.

Nah. Yuji could feel their pressure and see them pretty soon in the series without any training. In Shibuya the people also could see the curses and they weren't in immediate danger. Its also special places like a school where they can see them. If it makes it any better I can just put Location as a school or hospital if you want.

By the time Mahito got within several meters, he'd be visible. Also, the feeling of death can be felt even before Yuji gets in the school. An extra example is that the kids could hear the curses before getting sick by it. So I'd say at worst Mahito would be somewhat visible and at best completely visible.

 

[CiscoTheSoto]

No first grade and higher are physical. And I've addressed this invisibility thing a lot lol.

By the time Mahito got within several meters, he'd be visible. Also, the feeling of death can be felt even before Yuji gets in the school. An extra example is that the kids could hear the curses before getting sick by it. So I'd say at worst Mahito would be somewhat visible and at best completely visible.

Oh yeah, now I see the intangibility thing is only for the lower-grade cursed spirits. And yeah, you do reference the invisibility aspect, which isn't so extreme as to make it a total disadvantage for Santa Claus.