Mahito vs Santa Claus

[Arkenis]

Them being made into dolls helps Mahito since he now knows how the ability works.

How does that make him know how it works? And how does knowing help?

 

[That_moron2]

How does that make him know how it works? And how does knowing help?

He saw it happen. With that knowledge, he can make a plan around how the ability works

 

[Arkenis]

He saw it happen. With that knowledge, he can make a plan around how the ability works

Seeing something happen doesn’t mean you understand it? And what plan would he do? He now just loss the tactic of making more transfigured humans.

 

[That_moron2]

Seeing something happen doesn’t mean you understand it?

Santa's ability is extremely simple. If she or her dolls touch you you get turned into a doll. Its not that hard to figure out.

And what plan would he do? He now just loss the tactic of making more transfigured humans.

Distract her a Polymorphic Soul Isomer and then go over and transfigure her.

 

[Arkenis]

Santa's ability is extremely simple. If she or her dolls touch you you get turned into a doll. Its not that hard to figure out.

Its simple from our perspective, but that doesn't mean he'll understand it simply from looking at it.

Distract her a Polymorphic Soul Isomer and then go over and transfigure her.

Those are transfigured humans, they can also be dollified.

 

[That_moron2]

Its simple from our perspective, but that doesn't mean he'll understand it simply from looking at it.

Same guy who saw Gojo do 0.2 second domain and copied it not even a day later btw.

Those are transfigured humans, they can also be dollified.

I never said they couldn’t, just that these are much faster and stronger than regular transfigured humans. Mahito only needs it tkk I’m distract her a couple of seconds to transfigure her.

 

[Hiiilt]

I never said they couldn’t, just that these are much faster and stronger than regular transfigured humans. Mahito only needs it tkk I’m distract her a couple of seconds to transfigure her.

santa claus doesn't really neeed to do anything to them when she can send her dolls to deal with them

 

[Hiiilt]

i'm not saying that mahito wincon of touching her when she is distracted is impossible btw i just think that her army of dolls give her a huge advantage and make her more likely to win

 

[That_moron2]

Can someone tell me what Santa’s wincon is?

 

[Hiiilt]

Can someone tell me what Santa’s wincon is?

overhelming him with her dolls, surprising him with her stealthy mastery and possibly bfr

 

[Arkenis]

Same guy who saw Gojo do 0.2 second domain and copied it not even a day later btw.

How does this have any comparison?

I never said they couldn’t, just that these are much faster and stronger than regular transfigured humans. Mahito only needs it tkk I’m distract her a couple of seconds to transfigure her.

Faster....? It's equal speed. And stronger than regular? Kinda, they have explosive power, which gets drained after two attacks and gets one shot afterwards. The dolls would kill them very quickly or just dollify them. It's not a distraction if the dolls fight them.

 

[LaserPrecision]

Special grades are physical manifestations so idk why you’re bringing up npi or immaterial?

I was referring to their bodily composition being made of Cursed Energy as opposed to biological material like bones, muscles, skin, organs, etc.

sba states the characters fight in a location viable to both so shouldn’t be some crazy disadvantage to him here

Fair

 

[LaserPrecision]

What's the starting range between the two? If Mahito wanted, they could just use a speed amp to get a touch off on Santa. Though I also feel him sneaking in for a touch could work just as well. And wouldn't Mahito be able to transfigure any Dolls he touches due to his ability going further than changing the body, but changing the soul which causes the body to conform to that change.

Worst case scenario, Mahito gets touched. Would he even be turned into a Doll? His body conforms to the shape of his soul, so if his body was transformed, wouldn't it just revert to normal? Would he be under Santa's control when he doesn't even have a human brain to mind control? I feel there's a lot of questions that need answering.

 

[Arkenis]

What's the starting range between the two?

tens of meters, I'd say just going off what Mahito's range is probably no more than 30m.

And wouldn't Mahito be able to transfigure any Dolls he touches due to his ability going further than changing the body, but changing the soul which causes the body to conform to that change.

Yeah.

Would he be under Santa's control when he doesn't even have a human brain to mind control? I feel there's a lot of questions that need answering.

Not sure. I don't doubt it, Santa controlled Fiends which are devils in human corpses. Curses brains are different, but there's nothing really showing some resistance to mind manipulation like this. The soul stuff can let him resist anyway

 

[LaserPrecision]

tens of meters, I'd say just going off what Mahito's range is probably no more than 30m.

Alright, makes sense.

Yeah.

Alright, wanted to be sure. Thanks for the confirmation.

Not sure. I don't doubt it, Santa controlled Fiends which are devils in human corpses. Curses brains are different, but there's nothing really showing some resistance to mind manipulation like this. The soul stuff can let him resist anyway

The thing is if their "brains" aren't organic, but are instead made of Cursed Energy, I'm not sure if hax that controls organic brains made of normal human tissue would work on it too. Because as you said, Fiends take over the body of a Human, thus they have human weaknesses and biology (As demonstrated and explained by Kishibe when training Denji and Power). Not saying it wouldn't affect Mahito at all, but not sure if it would because of this.

Plus as you agreed, his soul should allow him to resist.

With that said, I feel Mahito wouldn't have much difficulty tagging Santa. Worst case scenario, they pop a Domain and transfigure them.

 

[Hiiilt]

The thing is if their "brains" aren't organic,

santa claus dolls have inorganic phisiology and they are still mind controlled by santa tho

I'm not sure if hax that controls organic brains made of normal human tissue would work on it too.

she can control the mind of headless dolls so her power isn't dependant on the brain and just completely supernatural instead of biological

With that said, I feel Mahito wouldn't have much difficulty tagging Santa.

her army of dolls will definitely cause trouble for him and can overhelm him

even if he uses his de he doesn't have enough range to affect all of her dolls

Worst case scenario, they pop a Domain and transfigure them.

that's a valid wincon but he would have to locate santa first(santa has stealthy mastery she managed to go unnoticed by power who has enhanced senses and her 'student' tolka managed to surprise both denji and beam who also has enhanced senses) and she can change her location instantly by changing bodies

 

[LaserPrecision]

santa claus dolls have inorganic phisiology and they are still mind controlled by santa tho

Because they became dolls.. they were regular humans prior, no?

she can control the mind of headless dolls so her power isn't dependant on the brain and just completely supernatural instead of biological

They're dolls, if their head is gone, they can still command the body via the head I figure. Otherwise this seems more like body puppetry than mind control.

her army of dolls will definitely cause trouble for him and can overhelm him

He can easily maneuver around all of them if he needs to. Wouldn't be that hard tbh.

even if he uses his de he doesn't have enough range to affect all of her dolls

They start tens of meters from each other. They aren't that far from one another. Wouldn't be hard to catch Santa herself in the Domain.

that's a valid wincon but he would have to locate santa first(santa has stealthy mastery she managed to go unnoticed by power who has enhanced senses and her 'student' tolka managed to surprise both denji and beam who also has enhanced senses) and she can change her location instantly by changing bodies

They start tens of meters from each other and both start in each others line of sight don't they? At least that's how I thought SBA worked.

Anyways, in regards to her hiding, Mahito would be able to either notice their soul, or locate them solely on the Cursed Energy they emanate. I imagine it wouldn't take much to find her.

 

[Arkenis]

They're dolls, if their head is gone, they can still command the body via the head I figure. Otherwise this seems more like body puppetry than mind control.

Its both.

They start tens of meters from each other. They aren't that far from one another. Wouldn't be hard to catch Santa herself in the Domain.

Could catch one body but not the others. Santa can switch bodies too.

 

[LaserPrecision]

Its both.

Fair enough. Though I'm still under the impression that it wouldn't do much to Mahito in specific.

Could catch one body but not the others. Santa can switch bodies too.

If she gets caught in it, she dies before she can switch bodies. And I'm not sure if she'd be able to switch bodies with someone outside the domain since a Domain Expansion is like a separate dimension, no?

 

[Hiiilt]

Fair enough. Though I'm still under the impression that it wouldn't do much to Mahito in specific.

Why not?

And I'm not sure if she'd be able to switch bodies with someone outside the domain since a Domain Expansion is like a separate dimension, no?

Her contract with the doll devil(the devil that gave her the ability to switch bodies) still worked after it travelled to hell(a separate dimension) so she should be able to

 

[Hiiilt]

Btw, santa and her dolls don't have ce would mahito domain even work on them?

 

[Arkenis]

Btw, santa and her dolls don't have ce would mahito domain even work on them?

Yeah. Though Mahito's de does target the soul specifically so I don't see that being an issue.

 

[Arkenis]

If she gets caught in it, she dies before she can switch bodies. And I'm not sure if she'd be able to switch bodies with someone outside the domain since a Domain Expansion is like a separate dimension, no?

I honestly don't see her getting caught, domains gotta spread, she'll see the spread happening figure no way out and switch to another doll outside his range.

 

[LaserPrecision]

Why not?

Because Mahito's body conforms to his soul. Any change to his body will be undone by his soul.

Her contract with the doll devil(the devil that gave her the ability to switch bodies) still worked after it travelled to hell(a separate dimension) so she should be able to

I suppose that's fair, but Domains explicitly close off space and make it nearly impossible to escape. With Gojo losing his ability to teleport outside the Domain with it closed. Not sure if it'd require layered dimensional travel or not to escape. But either way, she'd be dead before she escaped. She wouldn't even know what a Domain is or does.

Btw, santa and her dolls don't have ce would mahito domain even work on them?

SBA means they have Cursed Energy. Just like how in a match with a DB character SBA would dictate the enemy has ki/chi. Well, the dolls might not since they don't have emotions at all. But Santa would.

I honestly don't see her getting caught, domains gotta spread, she'll see the spread happening figure no way out and switch to another doll outside his range.

Domains open faster than people can react/move to escape it. Gojo's Domain literally closed tens if not hundreds of meters before anyone could react. They can be closed faster than 0.01 seconds from their perspective.

Todo who was Tens of Meters away hardly had time to instinctively protect himself with Simple Domain. The only cue she could react to would be the hand in Mahito's mouth, but she wouldn't know what that entails. Nor what a Domain is.

Nor is it in-character for her to swap bodies to avoid every attack. She'd only do such if she knew what the domain or Mahito could do.

 

[That_moron2]

Mahito fra

 

[Arkenis]

SBA means they have Cursed Energy. Just like how in a match with a DB character SBA would dictate the enemy has ki/chi. Well, the dolls might not since they don't have emotions at all. But Santa would.

Idk, I doubt she would too.

• Additional Limbs & Inorganic Physiology (Type 1) (With the Darkness Devil contract Santa became much taller, grew many more arms, and had many other changes to her body that resembled dolls[8])

Domains open faster than people can react/move to escape it. Gojo's Domain literally closed tens if not hundreds of meters before anyone could react. They can be closed faster than 0.01 seconds from their perspective.

Todo who was Tens of Meters away hardly had time to instinctively protect himself with Simple Domain. The only cue she could react to would be the hand in Mahito's mouth, but she wouldn't know what that entails. Nor what a Domain is.

That's Gojo's domain? Why are we comparing it to the rest? And Todo wasn't tens of meters away. This is like a good 5 maybe 6 meters. And he didn't instinctively protect himself, That was from the black flash.

Nor is it in-character for her to swap bodies to avoid every attack. She'd only do such if she knew what the domain or Mahito could do.

I haven't argued for every attack. Just the one where she's seeing a wide black dome spreading towards her and closing her inside, anyone with a viable means of evasion and decent intelligence would think to use it.

 

[LaserPrecision]

Idk, I doubt she would too.

• Additional Limbs & Inorganic Physiology (Type 1) (With the Darkness Devil contract Santa became much taller, grew many more arms, and had many other changes to her body that resembled dolls[8])

I'm not sure why that would detract from her having Cursed Energy. She's still a sentient human with an inorganic body because of the Darkness Devil.

That's Gojo's domain? Why are we comparing it to the rest? And Todo wasn't tens of meters away. This is like a good 5 maybe 6 meters. And he didn't instinctively protect himself, That was from the black flash.

This is like every Domain ever though. I don't recall someone getting the opportunity to try and escape a Domain being constructed. As it is constructed faster than they can reliably react to it. Heck, this is supported by Sukuna believing he could close a domain faster than Gojo could escape from it via teleportation.

And it could be my sense of distance is skewed, but I think I an see that being just over ten meters. Though I may need to do the math to see if that checks out.

I haven't argued for every attack. Just the one where she's seeing a wide black dome spreading towards her and closing her inside, anyone with a viable means of evasion and decent intelligence would think to use it.

That's entirely subjective. Anyone in Jujutsu Kaisen would since they know what a Domain Expansion can do would. As they know the dangers. Anyone who has no idea what they do? They may choose to either brave it thinking they can endure whatever it is, or choose to try and counter it with an attack, or use hax depending on their capabilities.

 

[Arkenis]

I'm not sure why that would detract from her having Cursed Energy. She's still a sentient human with an inorganic body because of the Darkness Devil.

I don't think it makes sense to acknowledge a clear disadvantage domains have. The series shows us things without ce don't get targeted, but apply it here when its not normal in this verse nor is it necessary for the fight as SBA states. Santa is an inorganic body, aka just like a building, she shouldn't have ce at all, its a human controlling dolls from somewhere else completely, not the real Santa.

Verse equalization: Similar supernatural aspects of verses get equalized in a reasonable fashion. So a supernatural energy that almost everyone in a Verse has, which is necessary to fight the characters of said Verse, will be assumed to be the equivalent energy that the opponents use in their techniques so that a proper fight can happen.

They don't need ce to interact with Mahito here, and their win cons don't require exorcising him either.

This is like every Domain ever though. I don't recall someone getting the opportunity to try and escape a Domain being constructed. As it is constructed faster than they can reliably react to it. Heck, this is supported by Sukuna believing he could close a domain faster than Gojo could escape from it via teleportation.

True the domains are faster. But on the Sukuna point, you're right and wrong: Its a Gojo who's been pushing himself for the whole battle and has just shown he's bleeding from his brain, its clear this Gojo is not physically the best anymore so I wouldn't use that.

That's entirely subjective. Anyone in Jujutsu Kaisen would since they know what a Domain Expansion can do would. As they know the dangers. Anyone who has no idea what they do? They may choose to either brave it thinking they can endure whatever it is, or choose to try and counter it with an attack, or use hax depending on their capabilities.

It's not. Santas claus brings up changing dolls twice: After being defeated by Denji they say they can do it, and faced with Halloween they also say they'll do it there. So up against an unknown ability, they'd definitely use their power here.

 

[LaserPrecision]

I don't think it makes sense to acknowledge a clear disadvantage domains have. The series shows us things without ce don't get targeted, but apply it here when its not normal in this verse nor is it necessary for the fight as SBA states. Santa is an inorganic body, aka just like a building, she shouldn't have ce at all, its a human controlling dolls from somewhere else completely, not the real Santa.

Verse equalization: Similar supernatural aspects of verses get equalized in a reasonable fashion. So a supernatural energy that almost everyone in a Verse has, which is necessary to fight the characters of said Verse, will be assumed to be the equivalent energy that the opponents use in their techniques so that a proper fight can happen.

They don't need ce to interact with Mahito here, and their win cons don't require exorcising him either.

When did something being inorganic stop it from having Cursed Energy if it was sentient in JJK? The only thing that comes to mind is Mechamaru, and his mechs have Cursed Energy as a fuel source whilst the real one is tucked away somewhere else. Similarly to Santa. Though I'm pretty sure the Santa we see that Denji kills is the "real" Santa, whom can simply swap bodies whenever they may need to. Not a body piloted by the "real deal" from far away.

I was told in a match before with (Against Freeza) that something like Ki would be assumed by SBA to apply to the opposing verse despite the other verse having nothing like it. I figure it would apply here too with something as fundamental as Cursed Energy which is simply a result of negative emotions. I'll look into that though. But it seems weird that SBA wouldn't make something as fundamental as CE apply to other verses in a match-up. Especially when something like souls are an assumed default for all verses unless explicit confirmation of otherwise.

True the domains are faster. But on the Sukuna point, you're right and wrong: Its a Gojo who's been pushing himself for the whole battle and has just shown he's bleeding from his brain, its clear this Gojo is not physically the best anymore so I wouldn't use that.

I don't see why that's of any issue. It wasn't noted that his teleportation had become worse in any way, so it'd be conjecture to assume such. The statement should be taken at face value unless there's a statement that would dictate Gojo's teleportation has worsened in some way as a result of his brain damage. It should be perfectly fine for use.

It's not. Santas claus brings up changing dolls twice: After being defeated by Denji they say they can do it, and faced with Halloween they also say they'll do it there. So up against an unknown ability, they'd definitely use their power here.

Great, you brought up two instances where they said they could do it, but didn't do it. She was defeated by Denji before even considering changing bodies once. This shows it's not a first or early move for her, even when she's being put in a bad position. It's not like she tried changing bodies constantly up against Chainsaw Man, and she didn't immediately change bodies when she was ensnared into Cosmo's library, they didn't immediately try opting for switching bodies. So I find it hard to believe her first course of action is to swap bodies to evade a Domain. A Domain that'd likely close too fast for her to do so anyways. She'd likely get caught in it like Cosmo's library, then be hit by its sure-hit effect before realizing it's dangerous.

 

[Hiiilt]

Great, you brought up two instances where they said they could do it, but didn't do it. She was defeated by Denji before even considering changing bodies once.

because he had no way to kill her and she needed to defeat him for her contract(her other dolls present there were destroyed by quanxi and denji so if she switched bodies she wouldn't be close to denji anymore and wouldn't be able to complete her mission)

This shows it's not a first or early move for her, even when she's being put in a bad position. It's not like she tried changing bodies constantly up against Chainsaw Man, and she didn't immediately change bodies when she was ensnared into Cosmo's library,

cosmo had used her mind manip and trapped her mind inside the library even if she switched bodies it wouldn't change anything since her mind is still trapped inside the library

I suppose that's fair, but Domains explicitly close off space and make it nearly impossible to escape. With Gojo losing his ability to teleport outside the Domain with it closed. Not sure if it'd require layered dimensional travel

i think it would only be considered layered dimensional travel if gojo teleport had shown the ability to teleport from other dimensions

He can easily maneuver around all of them if he needs to. Wouldn't be that hard tbh.

her dolls have surface scaling and can follow him and due to the amount of dolls she has i doubt he could get close to her and avoid touching or getting touched even once by her dolls

They start tens of meters from each other. They aren't that far from one another. Wouldn't be hard to catch Santa herself in the Domain.

They start tens of meters from each other and both start in each others line of sight don't they? At least that's how I thought SBA worked.

i may be misunderstand something but sba says

Starting distance: The characters start as far away from each other as the highest range of the fighters is, but a maximum of 4 kilometers. For example, if one character has a range of 10 meter and the other has a range of 20 meter they start 20 meter apart. However if the range of one character is 10 meter and the range of the other is 5 kilometer, they start only 4 kilometer apart.

since santa range is interdimensional wouldn't the starting distance be 4km?

Anyways, in regards to her hiding, Mahito would be able to either notice their soul, or locate them solely on the Cursed Energy they emanate. I imagine it wouldn't take much to find her.

good point but i think he would have trouble reaching her since her army of dolls may not have souls

 

[LaserPrecision]

because he had no way to kill her and she needed to defeat him for her contract(her other dolls present there were destroyed by quanxi and denji so if she switched bodies she wouldn't be close to denji anymore and wouldn't be able to complete her mission)

And she doesn't know that Mahito has any way to kill her either. That's my point. She doesn't even know Mahito. So why would she immediately use it against Mahito? My point is she wouldn't. She at bare minimum would save it for later.

cosmo had used her mind manip and trapped her mind inside the library even if she switched bodies it wouldn't change anything since her mind is still trapped inside the library

My point is that she didn't even attempt to switch bodies despite not knowing it wouldn't work. Showing that if she were trapped in some weird dimension, she wouldn't immediately opt for switching bodies.

i think it would only be considered layered dimensional travel if gojo teleport had shown the ability to teleport from other dimensions

Fair.

her dolls have surface scaling and can follow him and due to the amount of dolls she has i doubt he could get close to her and avoid touching or getting touched even once by her dolls

He can turn into something extremely small and crawl or fly past all of them. Use blitz-worthy speed amps to navigate around them, or clear the way with transfigured humans. And even if he's touched, it wouldn't matter since his body would simply revert back to normal for reasons explained above.

i may be misunderstand something but sba says

Starting distance: The characters start as far away from each other as the highest range of the fighters is, but a maximum of 4 kilometers. For example, if one character has a range of 10 meter and the other has a range of 20 meter they start 20 meter apart. However if the range of one character is 10 meter and the range of the other is 5 kilometer, they start only 4 kilometer apart.

since santa range is interdimensional wouldn't the starting distance be 4km?

I don't think Interdimensional is conventional range tbf. Especially when that range isn't even applicable for attacks. Nor is any school 4 Kilometers long. Mahito has the longest combat applicable range in terms of attacks.

good point but i think he would have trouble reaching her since her army of dolls may not have souls

I don't see why they wouldn't have souls just because their body was transmuted. No Cursed Energy? Sure. They have no emotions. But they were living beings before, living beings who she can give sentience back to.

I can't imagine her puppets will give him as much trouble as people here give credit for.

 

[Arkenis]

When did something being inorganic stop it from having Cursed Energy if it was sentient in JJK?

Buildings.

I was told in a match before with (Against Freeza) that something like Ki would be assumed by SBA to apply to the opposing verse despite the other verse having nothing like it. I figure it would apply here too with something as fundamental as Cursed Energy which is simply a result of negative emotions. I'll look into that though. But it seems weird that SBA wouldn't make something as fundamental as CE apply to other verses in a match-up. Especially when something like souls are an assumed default for all verses unless explicit confirmation of otherwise.

I don't know why, ki isn't a necessary requirement to fight in DBZ, nor would it be in crossverse, so either there's just a huge misunderstanding on equalization or equalization needs a better explanation cuz I really don't know why they put the necessary aspect there but then it can be ignored?

I don't see why that's of any issue. It wasn't noted that his teleportation had become worse in any way, so it'd be conjecture to assume such. The statement should be taken at face value unless there's a statement that would dictate Gojo's teleportation has worsened in some way as a result of his brain damage. It should be perfectly fine for use.

Having a weakened body clearly hurts your control of ce, Sukuna essentially says this to Gojo, saying he can't do his domain, and even if he could he wouldn't be able to fight him with precision. So yes Gojo having a damaged brain hurts his ce control and ce goes into ct, worse ce control, worse ct, especially using blue to teleport, something which isn't the basic use of his ct.

She'd likely get caught in it like Cosmo's library

She wasn't "caught" in her library, She was laid out on the ground not moving at all and we don't know how/what hits you to get in cosmo's halloween, its the mind which gets targeted not the body as well.

 

[LaserPrecision]

Buildings

I wasn't aware that Buildings were sentient. Mind sending me a scan of that? I assume you read my message, right?

When did something being inorganic stop it from having Cursed Energy if it was sentient in JJK?

I don't know why, ki isn't a necessary requirement to fight in DBZ, nor would it be in crossverse, so either there's just a huge misunderstanding on equalization or equalization needs a better explanation cuz I really don't know why they put the necessary aspect there but then it can be ignored?

Yeah, it is a pretty weird page tbh. Like we know souls are assumed by default despite that not being on the page. So it's hard to tell how much stuff is equalized/assumed for the sake of a match and character's being able to use their abilities to the fullest extent.

Having a weakened body clearly hurts your control of ce, Sukuna essentially says this to Gojo, saying he can't do his domain, and even if he could he wouldn't be able to fight him with precision. So yes Gojo having a damaged brain hurts his ce control and ce goes into ct, worse ce control, worse ct, especially using blue to teleport, something which isn't the basic use of his ct.

Hurting your control over CE =/= Worsening/Changing the effects of a Technique. Sukuna states if he opens a Domain again, he'd either die, or wouldn't have the precision to fight. And Gojo refrains from using another Domain. Thus there's no reason to assume he doesn't have the necessary precision to use his techniques and combat Sukuna. Especially when the next chapters are all about Gojo fighting Sukuna with Techniques.

She wasn't "caught" in her library, She was laid out on the ground not moving at all and we don't know how/what hits you to get in cosmo's halloween, its the mind which gets targeted not the body as well.

The point is she didn't even try to escape by using body swapping. She just said that she could swap bodies, but then Cosmo explained why that would be fruitless. They seem more bark than bite when it comes to that specific use of their power. That's all I'm saying. I think she'd eventually use it. But not before being killed by Mahito's technique.

 

[Arkenis]

I wasn't aware that Buildings were sentient. Mind sending me a scan of that? I assume you read my message, right?

What...? You're missing the point. Buildings in JJK are inorganic, they don't have ce, Santa's darkness state is inorganic. Just because something is sentient does not mean it has ce. We can't keep arguing if its fine to apply a verse's mechanics, one as specific as this to another verse that doesn't have curse energy.

Yeah, it is a pretty weird page tbh. Like we know souls are assumed by default despite that not being on the page. So it's hard to tell how much stuff is equalized/assumed for the sake of a match and character's being able to use their abilities to the fullest extent.

Souls aren't the same concept though. Idk why you're using that as an example. Everything that lives is assumed to have a soul because of how universal (though unproven) that is within our world's reality. Souls aren't necessary in a majority of verses to fight either.

Hurting your control over CE =/= Worsening/Changing the effects of a Technique. Sukuna states if he opens a Domain again, he'd either die, or wouldn't have the precision to fight. And Gojo refrains from using another Domain. Thus there's no reason to assume he doesn't have the necessary precision to use his techniques and combat Sukuna. Especially when the next chapters are all about Gojo fighting Sukuna with Techniques.

It does. Sukuna's output is nerfed, it weakens his ct. Gojo used basic forms of his ct, the spatial compression teleportation isn't a basic form of Blue's use.

The point is she didn't even try to escape by using body swapping. She just said that she could swap bodies, but then Cosmo explained why that would be fruitless. They seem more bark than bite when it comes to that specific use of their power. That's all I'm saying. I think she'd eventually use it. But not before being killed by Mahito's technique.

Because she couldn't, that's Cosmo's point when she brings up how she'll come to know the whole of everything. Santa says that it won't because dumping knowledge into her is like a drop in the ocean, so she thinks it wont matter. I don't see Mahito really hitting her with his tech with all the dolls fighting him and blocking him from getting close.

 

[LaserPrecision]

What...? You're missing the point. Buildings in JJK are inorganic, they don't have ce, Santa's darkness state is inorganic. Just because something is sentient does not mean it has ce. We can't keep arguing if its fine to apply a verse's mechanics, one as specific as this to another verse that doesn't have curse energy.

Buildings don't have Cursed Energy in JJK because they have no emotions Arkenis. I feel that much is obvious. Cursed Energy comes from emotions. Not from being organic.

And Cursed Energy is a fundamental core mechanic of JJK. Not applying it via Equalization doesn't allow anyone with Cursed Energy to fight at full efficiency if their opponent isn't also assumed to have Cursed Energy. Just the same way as Soul Manipulation would be useless if Equalization didn't assume all verses had it by default.

Souls aren't the same concept though. Idk why you're using that as an example. Everything that lives is assumed to have a soul because of how universal (though unproven) that is within our world's reality. Souls aren't necessary in a majority of verses to fight either.

So you're under the assumption we assume all verses have souls because the wiki arbitrarily assumes so just because people in real life believe it despite it being unproven as opposed to allow characters with soul manip to not have their gimmicks shut down?

It does. Sukuna's output is nerfed, it weakens his ct. Gojo used basic forms of his ct, the spatial compression teleportation isn't a basic form of Blue's use.

All we've seen in regards to lowered output is that it makes physical attacks hit less hard. We haven't been shown that it completely stops techniques that aren't offensive from working. That is an assertion on your part with no evidence and is speculative based on techniques of a different nature.

Also, was it stated Gojo's output was even nerfed? All we got was that if Gojo used another Domain, it would nerf him. Not that his ability to combat Sukuna would take a nosedive from what I recall. The fact that he proceeded to use his Techniques perfectly fine after his nose bleed from RCT too much shows that his Techniques weren't even hindered in any notable fashion.

 

[LaserPrecision]

Because she couldn't, that's Cosmo's point when she brings up how she'll come to know the whole of everything. Santa says that it won't because dumping knowledge into her is like a drop in the ocean, so she thinks it wont matter. I don't see Mahito really hitting her with his tech with all the dolls fighting him and blocking him from getting close.

She didn't attempt swapping bodies when she was laying on the ground before being "caught" in Cosmo's library. She chose to lay there while Cosmo walked over to her and use her ability. She could've swapped bodies instead of just laying there and letting her approach, but didn't. She couldn't even stop Denji and Quanxi from getting close with dolls. Let alone someone like Mahito. Mahito's body morphing shenanigans would make getting in close easy. And Santa wouldn't even know letting him get in close is dangerous and thus would have no reason to actively try and avoid him.

 

[Hiiilt]

She didn't attempt swapping bodies when she was laying on the ground before being "caught" in Cosmo's library. She chose to lay there while Cosmo walked over to her and use her ability.

Because she was talking to denji and chose to stay there so she could scare him(she was trying to convince him that no matter what he did she was going to come back)

She could've swapped bodies instead of just laying there and letting her approach, but didn't.

Santa was trying to talk to quanxi That's why she didn't leave

She couldn't even stop Denji and Quanxi from getting close with dolls.

She couldn't stop denji because denji was weakening her with fire and quanxi was too fast for her(Santa Claus even called quanxi a "invisible Devil Hunter" because she and her dolls couldn't react to her speed)

That Wouldn't be the Case against mahito since speed is equalized

Let alone someone like Mahito. Mahito's body morphing shenanigans would make getting in close easy.

I agree that it would be complicated to avoid him but mahito won't get close to her easily since santa Claus has a Lot of dolls(in one day she made 100+ dolls and she had been creating new dolls for years)

He would be fighting hundreds of dolls that have the same speed and can follow him from all sides due to their surface scaling

And Santa wouldn't even know letting him get in close is dangerous and thus would have no reason to actively try and avoid him.

Santa Claus usual tactic is hiding in the shadows while her dolls fight for her

 

[Hiiilt]

I don't think Interdimensional is conventional range tbf.

She also has planetary range tho

Especially when that range isn't even applicable for attacks.

Why not? She can use the hell devil

Nor is any school 4 Kilometers long.

True, idk what we're supposed to do

 

[Arkenis]

Buildings don't have Cursed Energy in JJK because they have no emotions Arkenis. I feel that much is obvious. Cursed Energy comes from emotions. Not from being organic.

And Cursed Energy is a fundamental core mechanic of JJK. Not applying it via Equalization doesn't allow anyone with Cursed Energy to fight at full efficiency if their opponent isn't also assumed to have Cursed Energy. Just the same way as Soul Manipulation would be useless if Equalization didn't assume all verses had it by default.

Okay true that it comes from emotions, this then does not mean we get to apply it to a verse which doesn't have something remotely similar. Please read the equalization section again so you understand it.

Verse equalization: Similar supernatural aspects of verses get equalized in a reasonable fashion. So a supernatural energy that almost everyone in a Verse has, which is necessary to fight the characters of said Verse, will be assumed to be the equivalent energy that the opponents use in their techniques so that a proper fight can happen.

CSM must have a similar supernatural aspect within its verse to qualify for this equalization, and it must be necessary to fight. You are simply wrong, every in verse can still fight at full capacity against Maki and Toji, the only thing they are missing is sensing them, something not necessary to fight in JJK.

So you're under the assumption we assume all verses have souls because the wiki arbitrarily assumes so just because people in real life believe it despite it being unproven as opposed to allow characters with soul manip to not have their gimmicks shut down?

Why else would such a thing be allowed? It is widely believed across numerous religions and cultures that humans and animals have souls. Why would we go and not apply something like this to the media we talk about when it is also so commonplace in our media?

All we've seen in regards to lowered output is that it makes physical attacks hit less hard. We haven't been shown that it completely stops techniques that aren't offensive from working. That is an assertion on your part with no evidence and is speculative based on techniques of a different nature.

I never said it stops techniques, merely that less control of ce harms one's ct output. And if you're gonna sit here and honestly say Gojo's complex ct application has nothing to do with the amount of ce control use to do it then we got nothing to talk about here lmao.

She couldn't even stop Denji and Quanxi from getting close with dolls. Let alone someone like Mahito. Mahito's body morphing shenanigans would make getting in close easy. And Santa wouldn't even know letting him get in close is dangerous and thus would have no reason to actively try and avoid him.

Denji and Quanxi are both better fighters than Mahito.

 

[LaserPrecision]

Because she was talking to denji and chose to stay there so she could scare him(she was trying to convince him that no matter what he did she was going to come back)

Santa was trying to talk to quanxi That's why she didn't leave

So all I'm really seeing for evidence that she's going to swap bodies to avoid Domain or being touched is her simply claiming she could. Not showing that she does so in-character early on. I don't feel there's any reason to continue the debate on body-swapping when it's clear she doesn't use it as often.

She couldn't stop denji because denji was weakening her with fire and quanxi was too fast for her(Santa Claus even called quanxi a "invisible Devil Hunter" because she and her dolls couldn't react to her speed)

That Wouldn't be the Case against mahito since speed is equalized

And Mahito can create a speed blitz amp via his shapeshifting. Something I mentioned much earlier on.

I agree that it would be complicated to avoid him but mahito won't get close to her easily since santa Claus has a Lot of dolls(in one day she made 100+ dolls and she had been creating new dolls for years)

He would be fighting hundreds of dolls that have the same speed and can follow him from all sides due to their surface scaling

In a small school hallway where he can easily blow them away with Transfigured humans, shapeshifting (to small creatures with flight), and blitzing (Via shapeshifting again). They're only gonna be tens of meters apart at most. Mahito is clearing that extremely quick. The fact it was argued that Mahito would fail to land even a single touch on her because "Dolls" is absurd to me. Will it be easy? No. Will it be impossible? Definitely not.

Santa Claus usual tactic is hiding in the shadows while her dolls fight for her

The first thing that happens when we see her is she gets attacked directly by Denji. Then goes to hide in a building and Quanxi follows her and beats her up there for a while. Then when night time comes? She immediately goes after Denji and doesn't attempt hiding even once. The whole next chapter is her just beating up on Denji by herself and with dolls. Not a single instance of hiding (Or trying to swap bodies to save herself from being ensnared).

So she's not going to be hiding the entire fight while her dolls pester Mahito. She'll be out in the open, and resort to hiding later based on what I've seen.

She also has planetary range tho

For something that isn't really combat applicable, granted that is true. But it's not like she can fire a blast at planetary range or with planetary aoe.

Why not? She can use the hell devil

That's not an attack. That's BFR via a contract.

True, idk what we're supposed to do

Well the one who made the match-up was under the impression they started tens of meters away. I imagine they start that far away at most.

Okay true that it comes from emotions, this then does not mean we get to apply it to a verse which doesn't have something remotely similar. Please read the equalization section again so you understand it.

Verse equalization: Similar supernatural aspects of verses get equalized in a reasonable fashion. So a supernatural energy that almost everyone in a Verse has, which is necessary to fight the characters of said Verse, will be assumed to be the equivalent energy that the opponents use in their techniques so that a proper fight can happen.

CSM must have a similar supernatural aspect within its verse to qualify for this equalization, and it must be necessary to fight. You are simply wrong, every in verse can still fight at full capacity against Maki and Toji, the only thing they are missing is sensing them, something not necessary to fight in JJK.

Removing the ability to sense someone hinders them when they're facing someone who ordinarily would have Cursed Energy (Not everyone is like Maki or Toji who broke free of Cursed Energy in a unique fashion). And when you're facing an opponent who's explicitly good at hiding, it does kind of become a necessity. But if you're that against it, then sure. No Cursed Energy sensing. He'd instead search for their soul.

Why else would such a thing be allowed? It is widely believed across numerous religions and cultures that humans and animals have souls. Why would we go and not apply something like this to the media we talk about when it is also so commonplace in our media?

So people with soul powers can actually affect souls in other verses? I thought my last comment made that clear. As for why we wouldn't apply it is simple; because most verses don't even make a mention of souls/spirits in their series, and it is something unfounded/unproven.

I never said it stops techniques, merely that less control of ce harms one's ct output. And if you're gonna sit here and honestly say Gojo's complex ct application has nothing to do with the amount of ce control use to do it then we got nothing to talk about here lmao.

And where is it stated Gojo has less control of Cursed Energy that would harm his output? And if you're going to make baseless conjecture based on speculative evidence because it "feels right", then there's not much I can do to help you. If you could show me an instance of nerfed output worsening a technique that isn't offensive (i.e. teleportation, power mimicry, etc.), then I'd be more inclined to believe you. But if you're just going to show me that decreased output obviously results in decreased damage output, then I'm sorry t say, I'm only gonna think you're speaking out your ass.

What do you even speculate will happen? That the range will be decreased? That it won't work at all? That he won't be in control of where he'll teleport? The fact that Sukuna states Gojo wouldn't have the precision to fight Sukuna (Who at that moment still believed he could use Domain Expansion without consequence) only after using a Domain Expansion again shows that he still had the precision to fight Sukuna reliably.

And where was it stated his teleportation is a "complex application" of his technique? It's one of the techniques he's shown he can spam the most, and only requires him to compress space with Limitless.

If it's actually stated to be a complex application, please show me so I know you're not (again) baselessly assuming such.

Denji and Quanxi are both better fighters than Mahito.

I'm sorry, but I disagree with the notion that Denji is in any capacity better than Mahito as a fighter. I can maybe see why one would believe Quanxi, but even then, her skill is overplayed (And Denji beating Quanxi isn't even impressive. I covered this in another thread).

And being a skilled fighter doesn't even entail how good you are at being elusive. Mahito is known for that unlike those two.