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Mai Natsume (Low 6-B) vs Lancer Scathach

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I would also like to note that AP does not matter if you do not have Mystery. There is a reason why I have specified that Gallia Sphyra: Outseal can affect Scathach because it is a Legacy Weapon. For Mai herself to "stomp" as it was put in the last debate and closed before I could explain no such stomp existed, Mai would need equal Mystery to Scathach. Seeing as she does not break past 30, the minimum for Mystery in the Fate lore is 100, to say there was a stomp is incorrect. Furthermore Ars Magus will not affect Scathach thanks to her A rank Magic Resistance making her untouchable by modern magi and Mai falls under that qualification as she is supposedly in her early twenties.
 
Age is literally only a single aspect of mystery. Otherwise, Tesla would never be hurting anyone like Gil or Karna with a hit since they are stupidly much older than him. Kouma Kishima also reached the level of being a living mystery despite not even being old at all. Shiki Ryougi is also mystery. If something is supernatural enough, we equalize it to mystery.

You are also applying the labels of an entirely different verse into another, which is not something we ever do. Mai's age and the age of her magecraft is completely irrelevant here because Ars Magus doesn't work by age making things stronger, and it doesn't, therefore, need to align with this non existent caveat of having a few hundred years of history behind it to have enough strength. Tohsaka's gems are certainly not techniques a few thousand millenia old, merely a ton of her mana packed together after years and made to explode, so they can kill Berserk when she uses enough, simple as that. Magic Resistance A is also worthless here as magic of that level is the kind of shit Medea pulls off, only 6-C and potentially higher. Low 6-B is, if it wasn't obvious enough, above that paygrade and is really not gonna care a single bit about her resistance.
 
Well, Scathatch might be in trouble then, cause Mai can potentially hax her to death, but i'm just gonna wait and see what the others thought fisrt
 
Mainly her Galia stuff like her Regenerationn negate or Death manip which scale to boundary and Nox nyxtorex user thanks to Galia being a Legacy weapon and Nox nytorex can inflict damage that can transcend a reset by a multiversal entity
 
You overlooked some things in your effort to just negate one of my points, Scathach's A rank Magic Resistance being one of them. Though if you wish to debate Mystery, take it from the Fate wiki itself:

"If two different types of Mysteries collide with one another, the stronger Mystery will overwhelm the weaker one. It is through this law that Lugh Beowulf is able to remain invincible against modern magecraft; because he has 3,000 years' worth of Mystery, which is far more than any modern magecraft has, he is able to simply ignore any effects that magecraft would have on him.

Certain items that have a long history and age can also show signs of Mystery, as in the case of the centuries-old katana that the Ryougi possess, Kanesada Kuji. If they are severely damaged, however, they will lose all the Mystery they have accumulated.

It is also possible for a human's body to reach the level of a Mystery, such as with Shiki Ryougi."

Since Lugh can remain untouched by modern magecraft and is 1000 years older than Scathach's low age guess on the vs wiki and Ars Magus is about 100 years old, Scathach would remain unaffected because it lacks the required Mystery and cannot bypass her Magic Resistance. Quite literally Gallia Sphyra is Mai's only way to affect Scathach while on the other hand Scathach can summon, use Runes, and has Precognition from her A rank Clairvoyance. As for what Nobody has stated, the information he has given about Gallia Sphyra is right however Gallia bypasses conventional durability as stated on her Vs Wiki profile.
 
You still do not understand what he said. It doesn't matter what her magic resistance and mystery level is. It's a massive No Limits Fallacy to just say that she can shrug off attacks that can literally oneshot her to oblivion with no proof that she can withstand attacks on that level. If you have any proof that Scathach can remotely shrug off blows far stronger than her then bring the proof, if not, she's going to die in one hit from anything and everything Mai does to her.
 
Why the Mystery would be technically combat applicable against the Ars Magus? Let's suppose that Mystery is applicable, thou it wouldn't work, why? Ars Magus is activated with Seithr, a substance that comes directly from the Boundary, where is a place that exists beyond the time so it doesn't matter how old the magecraft needs to be to have an effect against Scathach, also Ars Magus is capable of affecting the Black Beast which is literally outside of logic, making "age" completely irrelevant, then yes, Mai can bypass Scathach A rank Magic Resistance with this. Also what glass said, Mai oneshot her via much superior AP.
 
Servants also exist beyond time again as stated in the Fate wiki: "As beings outside of time, they can be summoned to any era regardless of the notions of past and future, even if summoned to when their human selves have yet to die or when they have yet to be born."

And glassman, I gave clear evidence of why it would not work. Though since you want to invoke fallacies, I'll simply repeat the specific evidence so you can understand why it's not a fallacy: "If two different types of Mysteries collide with one another, the stronger Mystery will overwhelm the weaker one. It is through this law that Lugh Beowulf is able to remain invincible against modern magecraft; because he has 3,000 years' worth of Mystery, which is far more than any modern magecraft has, he is able to simply ignore any effects that magecraft would have on him."

I am also going to double down on this as it is stated on the VS Wiki quite clearly: Invulnerability: Servants are Divine Mysteries that cannot be harmed by modern weapons such as guns, knives, or bombs unless they are infused with a supernatural aspect such as magical energy or possess a certain amount of age

This means that servants can survive attacks of any magnitude if the attacks do not possess a supernatural aspect such as magical energy or possess a certain amount of age. Given the information I've given, this means that 1. The only reliable way to beat Scathach is Gallia Sphyra as Mai Natsume is not at least 2,000 years old and has no access to the Root (Note: this link leads to the Fate wiki and is relevant to this discussion) like Shiki does, 2. Scathach still has other ways to pull ahead and none of them have been even addressed. It is also made clear that even magecraft has limits on the servants it can affect, so there is a limit that goes both ways when it comes to Mystery. As for Logic, Mystery comes from this: "The Swirl of the Root, also known as the Root, the Akashic Records, or occasionally, Heave, is a metaphysical location within the Nasuverse that acts as the "force" that exists at the top of all theories in every dimension, as well as the source of all events and phenomena in the universe."
 
You're not understanding anything that I just said did you?

Prove that her invulnerability works against someone that's Low 6-B in strength. If you can't prove that without taking some massive reach for what the invulnerability servants have then stop bringing it up. I "invoke" those fallacies because that's exactly what you're pulling. Anyways Mai oneshots and calls it a day.
 
Question

Can't Scathatch just throw Gae Bolg at her or does she have some way to avoid it.
 
Well, I would also like to point out that Scathach uses mana. Her Mysteries are all mana base while all of Mai's 'Mysteries' don't use mana, they are all 'seithr' base so comparing the two is really big issue. Also if we are going to use that the older Mystery overwhelms the younger one, we'll seithr existed before mana. It is basically what everything is made of, even mana. So by that logic the energy source Mai use is a more older and primal source of energy that has not been seen in the Type-moon universe. The thing is, it has never been seen in the type-moon universe so we can't compare it to much. And yes, I read the wiki and compared seithr to all the types of Ether and even Imaginary numbers. There were similarities but there were also things that set seithr apart from the rest so really, we can't compare the two Mysteries.
 
@Will Older bullshit kills younger bullshit is nonexistent. As far as Servants go, it doesn't matter how damn young Billy the Kid is - he shots a Servant that doesn't have absurd Dura in the right place, they get hurt.

Mystery also correlates to power - Medea is a magus from the age of gods, way more stepped in mystery, so she can pull off shit that is way more wack even in the modern age than most modern magus where mana in the environment is trash. There is no age or mystery to Rin's Jewels, there is just a trucket load of prana she implodes down Berserk's throat, which makes a 6-C magical attack, so he gets killed. Easy and simple. You can either go by what is in a wiki that Beast Lair, the forum that translated most of the shit and info they use, thinks is unreliable, or you can go by the feats shown directly in the visual novel and the games and books.

You also don't know literally a single thing about Nasuverse... The original soul of Servants exists beyond time and space, the Servant does not. The Servant is a bunch of mana made to mimick them.

And by your whole argument about age, Berserk should have never suffered any damage from the paltry attacks of a couple of gems a few hundred years old at best, using a method made by a family a few hundred years old at best. Is like I said mystery grows with age... but age is one side of mystery and is not the only way you can get something with a lot of mystery, shit you just conveniently avoid and don't even try to address despite my examples. The literal only thing you are using to prove your point is Lugh's statement.

I guess Sigurd's Gram was just a few thousand years old since it could kill a dragon... Oh wait, it broke and Sigurd reforged it, meaning it should have lost all it's mystery like Shiki's Kushinada. Surprise surprise, it actually only got stronger instead of weaker. Should I keep bringing up examples of why you are wrong?
 
Will's reply above and his incessant use of "older mystery is better" when we are shown the literal opposite God knows how many times, so older is not always simply better.

That's the entire crux of his "Mai ain't doing shit with all of her other stuff".
 
So then you choose to ignore canonical information about the Nasuverse? And if you wish to bring up unreliability, then do not forget that the VS Wiki is also considered unreliable. So using that argument is is a moot point and I know for a fact the Fate wiki is reliable as the information there matches the canonical information, especially when it comes to Fate/Grand Order. To refute your point about "There is no age or mystery to Rin's Jewels, there is just a trucket load of prana she implodes down Berserk's throat, which makes a 6-C magical attack, so he gets killed." Take the Shirou vs Gilgamesh fight, we all know that was because of plot. Do not mistake what the plot dicatates as what can actually happen. If Rin took Hercules on in reality, we both know his speed and durability would allow him to kill her if EMIYA did not intervene. It's PIS done so the protagonists, Rin Shirou and Artoria, can win. I will also note it took Gilgamesh, the servant with the highest mystery aside from Enkidu and other Babylonia gods, to kill Hercules for good and even then Hercules rose one last time which is something that Gilgamesh actually respected. It's not even the crux of my argument, you've simply been unable to get past my first of my two intial points and have not given any evidence to support your claims meanwhile I have given many pieces of evidence. So if anything, I can clearly say you lack knowledge on the Nasuverse as 1. You fail to grasp fundamental Nasuverse lore and 2. I know it's not something you particularly follow either. If you do possess any knowledge, you fail to adequetly show it. Now enough of this idiocy, I made this thread to see who would honestly win and the only thing I see is: "Mai throws her spear and wins" which is the crux of your entire argument. Where is the discussion of Scathach's abilities and what she can do, I mean speed is equalized in this fight. Are you actually suggesting Scathach is standing still in a fight where SBA applies and beacuse of that both fighters are willing to kill each other? Because quite literally that is the only way Mai can, I am aware Gallia Sphyra has homing capabilities however that means it has to move to strike again, win with a spear throw. Given how you've started to use profanity, it's best if you stepped away to take a breather so this can continue as you are held to a high standard due to being a part of the staff on this site, at least I hope there's a high standard here, and your behavior can reflect poorly on others. Another reply is incoming.
 
What does saying "the Vs wiki is unreliable" have anything to do with this debate? That has nothing to do with what he was arguing.

So you're pulling an appeal to emotion argument on me? First off I never said any profane language in this entire debate that would've remotely implied me insulting you. Secondly yes, the reason why I say Mai throws her spear and oneshots is cause that's something she can and will do, and given the massive AP advantage she has, and the fact it can lock on, and the fact that Velox said her luck is not high enough to help her dodge a homing shot, yes it can hit her.
 
Any attack from Mai not utilizing Gallia Sphyra will not affect her because, as I have stated twice already: "If two different types of Mysteries collide with one another, the stronger Mystery will overwhelm the weaker one." And Mai Natsume does not possess any Mystery due to her age while Scathach has at least 2,000 years of Mystery. However I did state when I made this thread and the previous one, Gallia Sphyra has the required Mystery. Why? Because of this: "Certain items that have a long history and age can also show signs of Mystery, as in the case of the centuries-old katana that the Ryougi possess, Kanesada Kuji. If they are severely damaged, however, they will lose all the Mystery they have accumulated."

Much like you state it's in character for her to throw her spear, it's also in character for Scathach to throw her own as well. However even Scathach holds the upperhand due to her precognition which will alert her in advance, and once Gallia Sphyra leaves Mai's hand then she will not have Instinctive Reaction until it returns to her hand while Scathach's spear will prevent Mai from moving and the second spear will kill. Given I have also mentioned Scathach's summoning multiple times, notably Achilles and Enkidu, her summons can stop Gallia Sphyra; especially Achilles as he's always going to be faster than those he faces. Given their equalized speed, it falls down to 1. Their skill and 2. Scathach's summons. Though I will admit Scathach's arrogance might prove to be too much as it will result in the battle being dragged out and given Scathach has a higher stamina stat, time is definitely not on her side. Here is how I see the situation played out (summarized of course):


Mai sees Scathach and how she looks similar to her, assuming that Scathach is trying to impersonate her; Mai the challenges her so she can protect her friends. Scathach tries to persuade her otherwise but Mai won't listen, that's when Mai charges in yet Scathach's precognition has already kicked in and she dodges and counter-attacks Mai. With mai's Instinctive reaction, she's also able to dodge. After her teacher instincts kick in and she first criticizes Mai for attacking before speaking highly of her quick actions. She then charges Mai and the two begin battling in extended melee range. Scathach now realizes how Mai is able to keep up and activates her Noble Phatntasm Gae Bolg Alternative. Because of this, Mai is unable to now move as space has been sewn to prevent that. Her heart is then pierced next b as it's True Name was released and thus Scathach wins.


I came to this conclusion as Scathach's experience allows her to figure out her opponents quickly, especially since she was a teacher of two different people. I originally thought Mai had a chance but as I researched and asked experts, it became clear that Scathach held the upper hand because of her experience, Class and Personal Skills, Noble Phantasms, and ability to summon other Lancer class servants (Achilles, Enkidu, Lartoria, Karna, Lancer Medusa, etc). If you wish to debate any part of this, do remember that Scathach is at least 2,000 years old and she has at least a similar amount of experience.
 
Yes...? Why would I not ignore canonical information that is wrong? Do you even understand what basic logic is?

If the author says the characters have peak human reactions but can react to Faster Than Eye movements, which is subsonic at the very least and far above peak human reactions, are you really gonna take the author's words as factual and true, making the feats of the character non existent because they would be impossible?

Almost any hero is older than Billy the Kid, he still can hurt them. Rin's magecraft and jewels aren't as old as Heracles, she can hurt him. Li Shuwen isn't even remotely as old as Scathach, he can hurt her. Kanshou and Bakuya aren't as old as Gil, they can hurt him. Kirei isn't even half of a century old, the Mana in his Command Seals was gathered a century ago at best, he can hurt True Assassin when he uses them to boost himself.

Surprise, 90% of the franchise now makes no sense if we take "older always wins" at face value. Compelling arguments.

Just close this, this is gonna go nowhere.
 
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