Man, Minecraft Tiers Suck Right Now

[00potato]

6, not as much as Pokémon but still a lot.
(Steve, Alex, Pig, Enderman, Zombie, Creeper, Mario.)

 

[ThisThingisReallyBroken]

If Minecraft is so good how come there isn’t a Minecraft 2?

Checkmate

 

[Tago238]

Rip

 

[YmTheSuper]

But the only verse that is the best selling video game is minecraft

Checkmate

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

So are we just meme'ing at this point or waiting for more people to vote for or against this CRT?

 

[Phoenks]

If Minecraft is so good how come there isn’t a Minecraft 2?

Checkmate

Ever heard of Hytale?

 

[YmTheSuper]

So are we just meme'ing at this point or waiting for more people to vote for or against this CRT?

Both

 

[00potato]

Hytale is just Minecraft 3. Minecraft 2 never existed.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Counterpoint

 

[Wokistan]

I don't really agree with silverfish having that sort of durability, given it's not exactly the hardest thing to do to punch them to death, and they barely survive the better gear. Literally any amount of damage kills them at that point, surviving a hit barely isn't generally a durability feat.

Also, scaling this much stuff to the ender dragon thing makes that thing much more likely to be an outlier, given that people get hurt by things like cacti, fire, lava, fall damage, lightning, decidedly not 8-B/Low 7-C amounts of explosives, falling anvils, thorn bushes, and fireworks. These lower end things waaay outwigh the sole ender dragon feat and have much more prevalence within the game than literally one enemy.

 

[Moritzva]

Silverfish will have 9-A durability, as worded I said “They barely survived, which is so close to death, they should just be 9-A in dura”.

To quote above, if a creature has 4 hearts or less, it’s 9-A in dura. The Silverfish has 4 hearts.

Cacti does very little damage and is unlikely to hurt you, fire damage can be dangerous to people regardless of tier due to heat, lava is somewhat similar, lightning... ehh, somewhat, though it doesn’t hurt you that much either, and fall damage is a historical outlier found in lots of video games. Thorn bushes also barely hurt you, I’m fairly sure fireworks just can’t hurt you at all as I’ve stood on top of them before, explosives aren’t exactly outlier material, fair enough on the anvils.

Given how most of the ”outliers” really don’t do much damage anyways, I think it’s fine. Though, if people decide differently on 8-B values or w/e, we can simply swap values - I just want to establish a proper scaling chain which, while it may create a few glass cannons/stone walls, is far more consistent with the game itself.

 

[Wokistan]

Yeah misread your silverfish thing

As for the heat stuff, that thread hasn't gone through rn, and this CRT is going rn. We're also not entirely sure what's going to go on with that. One potential option involves perfectly inelastic collision resulting in a conversion from force to heat, since the force has no other release in a situation with no deformation or movement where momentum just halts like that. I don't really agree that this is a very realistic scenario, but the fact that there are outcomes that don't just allow for "heat can already be assumed to get by all" means we shouldn't act like we're treating it that way yet. As such, fire and lava remain relevant.

Even at the low end, a person isn't likey to take 9-A amounts of lightning at once.

With other games and fall damage, there's story reasons and shit that doesn't line up to well. Not so much here, with the only story outside the game being a thing at the end of the game that has very little to do with tiering.

Fireworks can do damage with a firework star in them. Killed myself once with an elytra due to forgetting about that.

Why would explosives that are clearly not nuke level not serve that function?

Also, just remembered the silverfish calc has some issues, regardless of the other stuff.

The blocks break instantly and have waaaay less blast resistance than normal blocks of their ilk. We can also compare to irl infestation of solid objects, which also tends to weaken things. It's structural integrity is clearly compromised, infesting the block in the first place isn't a 9-A feat, and it shouldn't be being calced as though it's a perfectly intact meter of stone.

 

[Wokistan]

I'm pretty fine with the scaling principles, less fine with the ratings themselves.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Wok out there comparing a one-meter long giant bug nearly instantly weakening and destroying a cubic meter of stone with irl bugs infestations.

 

[Wokistan]

Not an argument, saikou. You've failed to establish why that's an issue, merely saying what I am doing as if that's supposed to have some sort of impact on the actual point. Infesting something is just not equivalent to shattering a cubic meter of a thing, large bug or small bug.

 

[Moritzva]

Well, it seems the bulk of your complaints are calc-related, and I am most definitely not a calc group member, so I’ll leave it to those more knowledgeable than I.

I’ll leave this thread open, but we can likely apply the ratings above at any time, give how unanimous this has been in terms of scaling principles.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

It's an issue because bugs infestations weaken the material they're in overtime. Which definitively cannot happen with a giant bug nearly the size of the block itself and which infests the block instantly. There is no "overtime" happening here, the entire process can happen in nearly a single second.

So either the Silverfish doesn't damage the block and just wakes up when the block is broken or they weaken it via their sheer strength to the point where it can easily be broken into bits when they wake up. Either way the IRL scenario of a bug slowly entering and damaging material cannot and does not happen with a Silverfish. It's not comparable.

 

[Agnaa]

@Saikou Silverfish are 12% the size of a block, they can definitely fit in it and weaken it.

I'd put the speed at which they infest blocks down to game mechanics, shit like that (along with short days, animals taking minutes to grow up, being able to grow up simply by being fed, being able to have babies almost instantly, etc) has to be that fast for the game to work, but it seems like y'all aren't very fond of that explanation.

 

[Moritzva]

I'll remain neutral on this matter specifically, regarding the yields of calcs and how viable they are, including the silverfish. Feel free to debate, and the OP values can be easily modified to be whatever is agreed upon for Silverfish/The Ender Dragon respectively.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

12% is still a lot more than any real-life bugs by a large margin. So it just slowly digging small holes into the block isn't feasible, especially how they're still almost as long as the block and tunneling inside it would be almost impossible due to that.

Game mechanics like that are very commonly canonized in Minecraft though. The End Poem heavily implies short Minecraft days being real and even if you think the End Poem isn't canon, the Mobestiary also treats as canon other silly timeframes like taming or breeding animals. Even without that, I definitively wouldn't want to act like an ability useable in combat is actually in canon a lot slower than it is in-game without proofs of it. This is a giant fictional bug, not a real-life bug.

 

[Agnaa]

They're 40% the length and 30% the height or something like that.

If we're accepting everything Silverfish can do as canon then they can also see through walls, and can only teleport inside a few very specific kinds of rocks, and can't infest those rocks when they're arranged into stairs or slabs.

If the Mobestiary treats some of the stuff I mentioned as canon, then I guess that's that.

I think there's a worthy comparison to draw for certain things done by fictional analogues of real bugs. For example I wouldn't treat the Blaze's 5 second fire reload time as game mechanics.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

40% in width and 30% in height, idk why the wiki doesn't list their length but it's almost that of a block if you look at screenshots.

(Just compare their length to the nearby blocks)

This is not giving Silverfishes entirely new abilities, this is assuming that a giant fictional bug burrowing into stone doesn't take as long as real-life bugs would, especially given how we have other absurd timeframes for other real-life actions. Obviously the Silverfish's ability is inspired by real-life bugs, but it's a fictionalized variant in a game with very, very weird physics, not an accurate portrayal of the real thing.


Also for what it's worth, the player can do the same feat of reducing a cubic meter of stones into rubbles in 0.25 seconds with a Golden Pickaxe. And the Golden Pickaxe deals 1 heart of damage, barely above the Silverfish's 0.5 heart. So the thing should scale to the full feat to some degree even if this feat is invalidated.

 

[Agnaa]

Ahh yeah, right.

Meh.

Isn't the point of golden tools that they do things quickly, break quickly, and don't deal or block much damage? Also I even more strongly disagree with scaling tool destruction times to damage values. I disagree even more strongly with "somewhat scaling" damage numbers to feats done with twice as much damage. It seems like you're already scaling 1 heart of damage to 8-B/Low 7-C, why would you now have it be 9-A and downscale from it... It's just wrong on so many levels man.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Huh, you're right. Whoops, nevermind that part.

Still, Silverfish should be 9-A because assuming a lower timeframe is gay.

 

[Agnaa]

I reiterate my meh.

 

[Moritzva]

Well, since this is a scaling-focused revision, should we begin with the changes themselves?

 

[DeathstroketheHedgehog]

I'm completely confused by the logic here. We're blatantly ignoring the current scaling and not actually providing counterevidence and just going by health and damage points to change the whole tier. It's one of the many things pointed out in our Game Mechanics page. https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Game_Mechanics

 

[Daddybrawl]

I think the problem with Minecraft is that it’s entirely Game mechanics, so we have to use Game Mechanics to properly index certain profiles. It has no solid lore, with any lore created either being Headcanon, Fabricated, or Assumed, and as a Sandbox game it’s about Creativity, so there’s not much limits you go by either.

 

[Agnaa]

I think we can go by various hurdles you have to overcome.

You'll fight monsters in the overworld before you get to the nether. You'll fight mobs in the nether before you can fight the ender dragon.

But with that mobestiary quote talking about endermen around the ender dragon being a threat... Meh.

 

[Moritzva]

I'm completely confused by the logic here. We're blatantly ignoring the current scaling and not actually providing counterevidence and just going by health and damage points to change the whole tier. It's one of the many things pointed out in our Game Mechanics page. https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Game_Mechanics

The current scaling is absolutely awful and based on nothing. In fact, I've provided counterevidence for why it sucks in quite literally the first video on this page. The problem with Minecraft is that there really isn't a lot of scaling - unlike a lot of similar games, sandbox or not, there's not actually a huge mountain of progression in the game. All differences in strength are moreso minute jumps superior than, but not completely unstoppable over lower enemies and tiers.

The canon is loose, but the bits of canon we do have all prove that mobs are considered a threat throughout the game... which makes sense, too, given that's how the actual mechanics of the game portray things.

So, I'm not really sure what your complaints are. I feel as if you didn't read the original post, considering you recite a lack of counter-evidence and re-using arguments without clarifying or stating why those arguments mean anything.

 

[DeathstroketheHedgehog]

If you really want me to break down what you think of the upper tiers, then here.

The calculation of 8-B and Low 7-C has been decided, hence the tiers, I'm the one who made that upgrade thread to begin with. The "At least 8-B" comes from obsidian and netherite being able to no-sell 38 tons worth of TNT, and boss mobs like the Wither and Ender Dragon can casually destroy several dozens of them at a time. This extremely casual scaling far above 8-B is one of the several supporting reasons "Possibly Low 7-C" exists. It wasn't that there wasn't a conclusion, "At least 8-B, Possibly Low 7-C" WAS the conclusion.

For starters, the boss mobs are known to be powerful enough to destroy obsidian. The only gear tier that can reliably break obsidian at any pace is diamond gear, which is why diamond tier and boss mobs are their own category. It is even supported by the mobestiary that the wither, one of the boss mobs, require enchanted diamond gear in order to combat.

The Steve that fully scales to the bosses is enchanted diamond gear steve. A maxed enchanted diamond sword does far more notable damage than a wooden axe, for one, and for two, you completely ignored DPS (because as a game with game mechanic limitations of health points and damage points), which would make the wooden axe a far less useful weapon than the diamond sword.

You are very well looking at the damage points alone and assuming that it is completely canon just because Minecraft has obscure lore. Just because lore is obscure doesn't mean game mechanics is fair game. By this same logic you're using no one should be above High 8-C because creepers do more damage. In fact, by your very logic, there is no reason half-a-heart damage characters in the game SHOULDN'T scale, due to the simple fact that they can hurt Steve just as much as they can hurt anyone else.

As for the Ender Dragon being a stone wall, it is literally intended in the game for damage to be NERFED if you hit anywhere but the head of the body, and it is supported by the mobestiary confirming the Ender Dragon's tough hide. And guess what? The lore also recommends getting high enchanted weapons, armor, and potions to fight the ender dragon, all of these resources only being reliably applicable once we get diamonds to mine the obsidian needed to make the enchanting table and forge an obsidian portal to enter the nether to craft a brewing stand. Everything for boss mobs and up ties back to the game recommending diamond level materials.

So with this game constantly pushing for progression to stronger and stronger gear to fight the boss mobs, it makes perfect sense why there are early, mid. and late game keys. Yes, they need a rework, I've been planning on it, but it's fair game for them to stay.

The smallest bit of lore Minecraft has, yet it is blatantly being ignored for the sake of having everything run on game mechanics. By that logic falling 30 meters might as well be town level in Minecraft.

Of course there's going to be inconsistencies. It's a video game, they ALL have inconsistencies, and a lot of it is due to game mechanics. What we shouldn't do just because the lore isn't as detailed as Elder Scrolls is throw all sense out the window and focus solely on hit points, especially when DPS (again, video game standards) aren't taken into account. By this logic, the Terrarian should be no higher than 8-B except at the end of the game because he cannot do more damage than dynamite, due to hitpoint game mechanics, despite being able to (and expected to) hurt and defeat the bosses of the game, who CAN survive it.

 

[Agnaa]

Given Deathstroke's post, I find that reasoning much more convincing than the line about the Enderman, so I mostly agree with him, but I do still think that the Ender Dragon multiplier is weird, and would prefer that removed. Seems real weird to assume that the head tanks that level while everywhere else is 4x more durable, rather than the inverse, or just that the head's weaker.

 

[DeathstroketheHedgehog]

To quote the ender dragon mobestiary page directly, "The scaly hide that covers its vast body is the toughest of any mob we know, able to absorb countless blows. Only its head takes full damage." On top of that, if you do X damage to the dragon in-game and it's not done to the head, you only do x/4 damage.

So yes, saying the head is four times weaker or the body is 4 times stronger is completely accurate. The reason the body has the higher tier in durability is because that the Ender Dragon's feats to qualify for its tier are done head-on, meaning the head of her body is that tier, and being 1/4 as durable as the rest of the body, the body is 4 times tougher.

 

[Agnaa]

While it does do those feats head on, its head actually tank that much of the charges. It has both a small surface area and volume when compared to the body, and the body gives the brunt of the value for the Low 7-C feat.

 

[Moritzva]

The calculation of 8-B and Low 7-C has been decided

Funnily enough, the legitimacy of those calcs and their status as outliers or not is probably the most hotly debated and controversial part of this thread.

For starters, the boss mobs are known to be powerful enough to destroy obsidian.

... No? This just isn't true at all, The Ender Dragon can destroy obsidian. (The Wither can, but exclusively with blue skulls, iirc, while The Ender Dragon can't under any circumstance). So I have no idea where you're getting this from.

The Steve that fully scales to the bosses is enchanted diamond gear steve. A maxed enchanted diamond sword does far more notable damage than a wooden axe, for one, and for two, you completely ignored DPS (because as a game with game mechanic limitations of health points and damage points), which would make the wooden axe a far less useful weapon than the diamond sword.

First off, if you were to give the same enchants to an axe (Which you can, because I have a rather well-enchanted netherrite axe as my main weapon in my current VSBW Minecraft Server), the damage is still the same. Second off, DPS is about speed. AP is attack power, and you're debating speed. Just because an attack is slower doesn't mean it doesn't have that manner of AP. So, this is also false.

You are very well looking at the damage points alone and assuming that it is completely canon just because Minecraft has obscure lore. Just because lore is obscure doesn't mean game mechanics is fair game. By this same logic you're using no one should be above High 8-C because creepers do more damage. In fact, by your very logic, there is no reason half-a-heart damage characters in the game SHOULDN'T scale, due to the simple fact that they can hurt Steve just as much as they can hurt anyone else.

So uh, this doesn't make any sense since I've debunked it thoroughly. First off, lore doesn't contradict anything I said above, so while lore is taken over game mechanics, lore actually supports me (as the Enderman quote shows). Second off, by my logic, Creepers are 8-B, possibly Low 7-C, so that point you're making makes no sense at all. Equally, by my logic, I've literally spent a paragraph explaining why Silverfish and similar enemies shouldn't scale, to such an extent I've tested my hypothesis on Saikou himself, in-game to prove my point. He can vouch, I very much did watch a bunch of silverfish fail to harm him for a long amount of time. So this is also completely wrong.

As for the Ender Dragon being a stone wall, it is literally intended in the game for damage to be NERFED if you hit anywhere but the head of the body, and it is supported by the mobestiary confirming the Ender Dragon's tough hide. And guess what? The lore also recommends getting high enchanted weapons, armor, and potions to fight the ender dragon, all of these resources only being reliably applicable once we get diamonds to mine the obsidian needed to make the enchanting table and forge an obsidian portal to enter the nether to craft a brewing stand. Everything for boss mobs and up ties back to the game recommending diamond level materials.

First off, anyone who has played Minecraft knows that simply having iron armor is more than enough to have a fair fight with The Ender Dragon. Diamond is just a luxury, and netherrite is just excessive. This isn't even a "Well technically you can kill a boss with (insert basic weapon here)", as iron is a legitimate, fair, and easy-to-obtain material that will absolutely let you deal damage and fight off endermen. Second of all, I concur with Agnaa regarding the multiplier, it's... pretty weird, honestly.

So with this game constantly pushing for progression to stronger and stronger gear to fight the boss mobs, it makes perfect sense why there are early, mid. and late game keys. Yes, they need a rework, I've been planning on it, but it's fair game for them to stay.

Yeah, they do need a rework, that's why this exists.

The smallest bit of lore Minecraft has, yet it is blatantly being ignored for the sake of having everything run on game mechanics. By that logic falling 30 meters might as well be town level in Minecraft.

You've provided absolutely zero evidence or lore that proves your point. In fact, none of what you said proves anything at all. Even in heavy enchanted armor (which you agree is 8-B, possibly Low 7-B), unless you specifically have anti-fall damage enchants in Feather Falling, you will still take shitloads of damage when falling. If your argument is "Town level fall damage!!", that's not a problem with my scaling, that's a problem with your tiers, calcs, and their statuses as outliers.

Of course there's going to be inconsistencies. It's a video game, they ALL have inconsistencies, and a lot of it is due to game mechanics. What we shouldn't do just because the lore isn't as detailed as Elder Scrolls is throw all sense out the window and focus solely on hit points, especially when DPS (again, video game standards) aren't taken into account. By this logic, the Terrarian should be no higher than 8-B except at the end of the game because he cannot do more damage than dynamite, due to hitpoint game mechanics, despite being able to (and expected to) hurt and defeat the bosses of the game, who CAN survive it.

... K? Again, you're failing to make a point. First of all, Terraria has much, much more clear-cut progression for easier scaling, and second of all, we're not actually talking about Terraria here, we're talking about Minecraft. Terraria's scaling is far easier to apply due to their progression system of bosses, definitive tiers of weapons, and large differences between weapons and tools, meaning it's not comparable to Minecraft at all.

In summary, you haven't actually made any points here. You started with some downright incorrect statements about bosses breaking obsidian, brought up speed in a debate about attack potency, brought up "lore" without actually bringing up lore or evidence that contradicts me, incorrectly assumed axes can't be enchanted offensively, blatantly misrepresented my points on the damage of certain mobs when my very original post explained my stance on those issues in a concise and detailed manner, debunked and provided an antifeat to your own calculations, and made comparisons to games that aren't relevant at all to this discussion for issues that have been brought up before.

Overall, you've actually managed to question your own calculations and legitimacy of Low 7-C Minecraft more than you've made a strong argument against my points. And, as I've said, I'm neutral on "8-B, possibly Low 7-C" Minecraft, and I only care about the scaling.

Edit: Well, let me give you credit, you did have a single piece of evidence, in the form of The Wither's article. However, you are wrong in saying diamond armor is required, as they were but suggested. So, seeing as it's moreso an in-verse suggestion that having better gear is good (which, well, makes sense), this definitely isn't enough to debunk scaling on it's own.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

I siding with Moritzva here.

 

[DeathstroketheHedgehog]

Funnily enough, the legitimacy of those calcs and their status as outliers or not is probably the most hotly debated and controversial part of this thread.

I have seen nothing like this when I skimmed the thread. The only reason you think it's controversial is because your argument is using controversial game mechanics to scale these characters. Otherwise using the currently used scaling, it only scales to the boss tier characters of the verse, so it can't be an outlier. It has zero reason to be an outlier when said feats are higher than the Creeper and Charged Creeper feats, both of which are High 8-C and a lower level 8-B.

... No? This just isn't true at all, The Ender Dragon can destroy obsidian. (The Wither can, but exclusively with blue skulls, iirc, while The Ender Dragon can't under any circumstance). So I have no idea where you're getting this from.

There was a slight miswording on my part, admittedly. In my previous paragraph, I pointed out "The calculation of 8-B and Low 7-C has been decided, hence the tiers, I'm the one who made that upgrade thread to begin with. The "At least 8-B" comes from obsidian and netherite". Netherite, which both in code and in game is just as tough as obsidian, making me mistakenly refer to it as just obsidian. Regardless, netherite shares the same casual 8-B feat that obsidian has.

On top of that, I made it explicitly clear in the same upgrade thread that the only reason the Ender Dragon doesn't destroy obsidian is because game mechanics.
"The only reason the Ender Dragon cannot destroy obsidian is because it's a game mechanic to not destroy the battle area. It's the same reason why the Ender Dragon cannot destroy endstone or even iron bars [which can surround end crystals in the End]. This is proven since Netherite blocks (both in-game and in-code as durable as obsidian), is also destroyed by the Ender Dragon flying through."

The Wither literally physically destroys obsidian and netherite all the time. it doesn't just need blue wither skulls to do the same.This is directly from the Official Minecraft Gamepedia.
"Suffocation is usually ineffective because, upon taking damage, the wither breaks any block it touches. However, it cannot break bedrock, end gateway blocks, end portal blocks, end portal frames, command blocks, structure blocks, jigsaw blocks, barriers or moving pistons." No mention of obsidian nor netherite. Why? Because it can destroy obsidian with both this method and the wither dashing method. Both things literally explained on the vsbattle wiki page.
Someone recorded this literal action because they thought it was a bug (not the hyperlink source, mojang bugs). And then guess what? It was resolved as an intended feature, therefore an invalid bug.

Okay, wow. Mid-comment Update. When I originally made the 8-B upgrades, months ago, the Wither's Ram attack could destroy obsidian. But as of recording on the most recent update of the game, apparently the wither dash can't destroy obsidian anymore, which is odd.. I sent a bug report to see if this was a mishap or not, but whether or not it is intended still doesn't disprove my point, surprisingly. In fact, if this was intended and not a bug it actually gives solid evidence of blue wither skulls being intended to be a stronger attack.

Here's the recordings: In this first video, I initially intended to show the Wither destroy obsidian with its ramming attack, like it used to do a few months ago. However, I've played the game roughly four updates later and it came to a surprise to me that it only destroyed the netherite blocks. However, that is the only surprise that I've learned. It turns out that Ancient Debris and Netherite Blocks can still no-sell the Wither's spawn, midhealth, and death explosions (all at the same level of power), which is the currently "At least 8-B" key reasonings.

And before you say it, yes, the Ender Dragon can destroy netherite as well. That Boss tier key is here to stay.

First off, if you were to give the same enchants to an axe (Which you can, because I have a rather well-enchanted netherrite axe as my main weapon in my current VSBW Minecraft Server), the damage is still the same. Second off, DPS is about speed. AP is attack power, and you're debating speed. Just because an attack is slower doesn't mean it doesn't have that manner of AP. So, this is also false.

You skipped over this part: "(because as a game with game mechanic limitations of health points and damage points)"

It's a video game. There are case by case scenarios on whether DPS is applicable. In a video game with game limitations such as Minecraft, DPS is applicable. And with that standard set, a wooden axe wouldn't be weaker compared to a wooden sword. This was intentional design. In Bedrock Editions of the game, where there's no cooldown to worry about DPS, axes do LESS damage then their respective sword counterparts.

Take a look at Terraria, with too little lore to actually implement a difference: A grenade that you can find at the start of the game does 60 points of damage. Dynamite, which is used to start Terraria's 8-B to 8-A scaling chain, does far more damage, so by your logic it would do less than the 8-B rating. Continuing on, this item comes FAAAR later into the game, but it also does 60 points of damage. The difference that makes it usable is that it does high DPS, dealing hundreds, and in very specific cases thousands, of points of damage. In games that play with health points and damage points, case-by-case scenarios can lead to DPS being counted as AP. Otherwise you're saying this weapon, which would normally be faar into 8-A, would only be below the 8-B start of the game.

That's the same logic happening here with Minecraft. The DPS of a wooden axe is literally twice as low as that of a diamond sword. In fact, even a netherite axe wouldn't top a diamond sword. The mobestiary was created long after the combat update of the game and even that recommends you use a sword over an axe.

So uh, this doesn't make any sense since I've debunked it thoroughly. First off, lore doesn't contradict anything I said above, so while lore is taken over game mechanics, lore actually supports me (as the Enderman quote shows). Second off, by my logic, Creepers are 8-B, possibly Low 7-C, so that point you're making makes no sense at all. Equally, by my logic, I've literally spent a paragraph explaining why Silverfish and similar enemies shouldn't scale, to such an extent I've tested my hypothesis on Saikou himself, in-game to prove my point. He can vouch, I very much did watch a bunch of silverfish fail to harm him for a long amount of time. So this is also completely wrong.

This creates circular scaling. 8-B comes from the Wither's spawning explosion, which the mobestiary announces as the the most powerful explosion in the world. And it's factual, because calcs have shown normal Creepers to be High 8-C, Charged Creepers to be 24 tons 8-B, and wither explosions to be 38 tons 8-B. Saying the base creeper should scale would mean a scaling chain such as this: Wither Explosion=38.5 tons=Creeper Explosion<TNT<Charged Creeper Explosion<Wither Explosion=38.5 tons.

And by your silverfish logic, you are saying that ANYTHING above base no-items Steve tier is At least 8-B, possibly Low 7-C. A silverfish can very well survive one swing of an iron sword. By your logic, even if it's a downscale, they would scale to 8-B, Possibly Low 7-C regardless. You're, either intentionally or unintentionally, trying to remove the gap of tiers in the game by scaling ANYTHING that does more than half a heart of damage as boss tier, which then turns back around to bringing the silverfish into that category as well.

First off, anyone who has played Minecraft knows that simply having iron armor is more than enough to have a fair fight with The Ender Dragon. Diamond is just a luxury, and netherrite is just excessive. This isn't even a "Well technically you can kill a boss with (insert basic weapon here)", as iron is a legitimate, fair, and easy-to-obtain material that will absolutely let you deal damage and fight off endermen. Second of all, I concur with Agnaa regarding the multiplier, it's... pretty weird, honestly.

Anyone who has played Minecraft KNOWS fighting the Ender Dragon in iron armor is only a factor if you plan on not getting hit.

And fighting off Enderman is not fighting of the Ender Dragon either. For one thing, the Ender Dragon does more damage, for another, it has a far FAR higher health count which allows it to survive said 8-B explosion as I've pointed out, and for yet another, it has feats of destroying said blocks which can withstand said explosion and another feat that gives it the Low 7-C key. On top of that, the dragon scales to the Wither, who can perform similar levels of feats. It's a blatant outlier to compare the Enderman to the Ender Dragon at all. If this were to be seriously considered, their key would be "High 8-C, Possibly 8-B" at the most. They already have something like that for their durability section via downscaling from iron golems anyways.

And the multiplier isn't even weird, the lore straight up says that the reason the Ender Dragon can withstand so many hits to its body is because of its tough hide, explicitly saying it is tougher than anything other living thing in the game, and then the game backs it up with the amount of damage being done to the ender dagon decreasing to a quarter of its health. It's pretty obvious the implication here is that not as much of that durable hide is on the Ender Dragon's head. For once, the lore and game mechanics finally agree on something, yet you want it discarded?

Yeah, they do need a rework, that's why this exists.

You're not looking for a rework, you're looking to remove them entirely.

You've provided absolutely zero evidence or lore that proves your point. In fact, none of what you said proves anything at all. Even in heavy enchanted armor (which you agree is 8-B, possibly Low 7-B), unless you specifically have anti-fall damage enchants in Feather Falling, you will still take shitloads of damage when falling. If your argument is "Town level fall damage!!", that's not a problem with my scaling, that's a problem with your tiers, calcs, and their statuses as outliers.

Blatant lie. I've posted NUMEROUS mobestiary links and thread links in that message, and you're saying I posted absolutely zero. Your entire argument was focused on the damage points of the game, that's literally the reason behind me saying that you are focused too much on game mechanics, and then used fall damage as an example of what happens from taking game mechanics too seriously. My argument is literally the opposite of that, so no, that would not be a problem at all with my tiers, one, that literally has absolutely zero to do with the calcs, two, and as I've explained earlier in this paragraph, it would fit as an outlier of game mechanics, three.

I'd appreciate it if you wouldn't say that I'm not posting evidence to back up my points again. I'm completely you posted evidence to back up your points. Whether or not I agree with it, I'm not here lying and saying you're posting no evidence whatsoever.

... K? Again, you're failing to make a point. First of all, Terraria has much, much more clear-cut progression for easier scaling, and second of all, we're not actually talking about Terraria here, we're talking about Minecraft. Terraria's scaling is far easier to apply due to their progression system of bosses, definitive tiers of weapons, and large differences between weapons and tools, meaning it's not comparable to Minecraft at all.

Terraria is a very similar game to Minecraft, so using it as an analogy is fair game, especially when I'm pointing it out as a comparison.
Terraria doesn't even have definitive tiers. They have nothing but a scaling chain for 75% of the entire game, Terraria ironically has less feats to solidify their tiers than Minecraft. I know, because I'm one of the people who helped revise it. So with that in mind, the start and of Terraria has a similar level of progression as Minecraft.

In summary, you haven't actually made any points here. You started with some downright incorrect statements about bosses breaking obsidian, brought up speed in a debate about attack potency, brought up "lore" without actually bringing up lore or evidence that contradicts me, incorrectly assumed axes can't be enchanted offensively, blatantly misrepresented my points on the damage of certain mobs when my very original post explained my stance on those issues in a concise and detailed manner, debunked and provided an antifeat to your own calculations, and made comparisons to games that aren't relevant at all to this discussion for issues that have been brought up before.

I've already clarified the obsidian issue above. I've also repeated myself on how to work with DPS, something you skipped over previously. I never made any assumption about axes being unable to be enchanted at all, so that's a strawman. I elaborated on how your points of damage are flawed since you didn't catch on the first time. I have never debunked my calculations, what are you on about? You never even SAID anything about me debunking my calculations. I provided an example of fall damage, which is an inconsistency issue throughout ALL of fiction, in order to show why you shouldn't be taking damage points seriously, and you're considering that some sort of legitimate antifeat. And, as provided above, Terraria was a good comparison to make.

So basically overall, you completely misunderstood 80% of my points, and somehow construed it in your head that I "debunked" my feats somehow.

Edit: Well, let me give you credit, you did have a single piece of evidence, in the form of The Wither's article. However, you are wrong in saying diamond armor is required, as they were but suggested. So, seeing as it's moreso an in-verse suggestion that having better gear is good (which, well, makes sense), this definitely isn't enough to debunk scaling on it's own.

Are you even paying attention to the context of the word "suggest"? No. You're not, you're ignoring the context to prove your point.
So I will quote it word for word.
"There are many ways to fight the wither. Some use trickery, summoning it in such a place that it suffocates in bedrock. But I suggest a more sensible one. Take a strong bow for the first half of the battle, when it flies high. Put on your diamond armor and enchant it with protection, which prevents one from becoming diseased, and carry a diamond sword with smite to increase damage against this undead horror. Have ready potions of health and strength, and golden apples."
The context of the word suggest here is pretty obvious. One method of killing the wither is putting it to suffocate in bedrock, but direct combat is more sensible. Sensible, meaning "chosen in accordance with wisdom or prudence" and having synonyms of practical and realistic and reasonable. The word "suggest" in this context had nothing to do with what you're implying it to mean.

 

[Moritzva]

Mk, let's get right into it.

I have seen nothing like this when I skimmed the thread. The only reason you think it's controversial is because your argument is using controversial game mechanics to scale these characters. Otherwise using the currently used scaling, it only scales to the boss tier characters of the verse, so it can't be an outlier. It has zero reason to be an outlier when said feats are higher than the Creeper and Charged Creeper feats, both of which are High 8-C and a lower level 8-B.

All I can say is that you're wrong, because just above this argument, Wokistan was questioning the status of Low 7-C and referring to it as an outlier, alongside debate over 9-A's legitimacy. This also occurred on the discord as well. These debates, additionally, don't impact the skeleton of scaling I proposed in OP - they simply change the values slapped onto said scaling. So, this argument has zero ground, is false, and doesn't at all effect my argument.

There was a slight miswording on my part, admittedly. In my previous paragraph, I pointed out "The calculation of 8-B and Low 7-C has been decided, hence the tiers, I'm the one who made that upgrade thread to begin with. The "At least 8-B" comes from obsidian and netherite". Netherite, which both in code and in game is just as tough as obsidian, making me mistakenly refer to it as just obsidian. Regardless, netherite shares the same casual 8-B feat that obsidian has.
<snipping the rest for brevity>

Alright, good that you clarified, and now your argument makes more sense. I still disagree, both on the account that we don't directly scale pickaxe strength to pickaxe damage to AP (or else you'd actually be supporting my argument, as a diamond pickaxe is a really shitty weapon, so while it can mine obsidian, it can't be used in combat). Additionally, you are using the false pretense that, because a pickaxe can mine a single ore of a certain block, and a boss enemy can possibly destroy said block depending on the boss, the block, and what kind of attack, that only materials of that tier should scale. Bit of a stretch.

Not to mention, blue skulls act differently and actually statistically reduce blast resistance in blocks, rather than simply blowing them up by force. While it's hard to determine what this means in a VSBW context, it brings further doubt to your argument that we should scale off of destroying netherrite/obsidian as the bosses are limited in their abilities to destroy it, with The Ender Dragon being unable to destroy obsidian, and The Wither relying on a pseudo-statistic reduction attack to destroy either. (Not to mention, you shun game mechanics, just to use netherrite/obsidian having the same explosive values? How does that make sense?)
You skipped over this part: "(because as a game with game mechanic limitations of health points and damage points)"

It's a video game. There are case by case scenarios on whether DPS is applicable. In a video game with game limitations such as Minecraft, DPS is applicable. And with that standard set, a wooden axe wouldn't be weaker compared to a wooden sword. This was intentional design. In Bedrock Editions of the game, where there's no cooldown to worry about DPS, axes do LESS damage then their respective sword counterparts.

Take a look at Terraria, with too little lore to actually implement a difference: A grenade that you can find at the start of the game does 60 points of damage. Dynamite, which is used to start Terraria's 8-B to 8-A scaling chain, does far more damage, so by your logic it would do less than the 8-B rating. Continuing on, this item comes FAAAR later into the game, but it also does 60 points of damage. The difference that makes it usable is that it does high DPS, dealing hundreds, and in very specific cases thousands, of points of damage. In games that play with health points and damage points, case-by-case scenarios can lead to DPS being counted as AP. Otherwise you're saying this weapon, which would normally be faar into 8-A, would only be below the 8-B start of the game.

That's the same logic happening here with Minecraft. The DPS of a wooden axe is literally twice as low as that of a diamond sword. In fact, even a netherite axe wouldn't top a diamond sword. The mobestiary was created long after the combat update of the game and even that recommends you use a sword over an axe.

Cool argument, still wrong. Speed is separate from AP. It doesn't matter how fast an axe takes to swing, because it's AP is the same, and it'll have the same AP rating. No matter how much you elaborate on it, you're operating on an incorrect assumption that faster speed = faster AP, which is only correct in kinetic energy calculations, which are not at all relevant to this conversation.

Also, using Terraria as an example is still awful because Terraria has extremely clear-cut scaling down to literal tiers of rarity and strength for it's scaling, making it an entirely different beast than Minecraft. Plus, I'm not debating Terraria here, so I have literally no reason to debate Terraria's tiers and the non sequitur that is. And a single line from a single dude saying "You should use swords!" doesn't change the fact that axes are viable weapons that have effects and abilities exclusively for combat, such as breaking shields. Hell, Vindicators and Piglin Brutes both use axes as weapons. You can't say axes aren't weapons, because they are.

This creates circular scaling. 8-B comes from the Wither's spawning explosion, which the mobestiary announces as the the most powerful explosion in the world. And it's factual, because calcs have shown normal Creepers to be High 8-C, Charged Creepers to be 24 tons 8-B, and wither explosions to be 38 tons 8-B. Saying the base creeper should scale would mean a scaling chain such as this: Wither Explosion=38.5 tons=Creeper Explosion<TNT<Charged Creeper Explosion<Wither Explosion=38.5 tons.

And by your silverfish logic, you are saying that ANYTHING above base no-items Steve tier is At least 8-B, possibly Low 7-C. A silverfish can very well survive one swing of an iron sword. By your logic, even if it's a downscale, they would scale to 8-B, Possibly Low 7-C regardless. You're, either intentionally or unintentionally, trying to remove the gap of tiers in the game by scaling ANYTHING that does more than half a heart of damage as boss tier, which then turns back around to bringing the silverfish into that category as well.

... Again, this is so obviously wrong that if you read the OP it would just be solved by looking at it a tiny bit. I literally said that most mobs would downscale from The Wither/The Ender Dragon, since... that makes sense. So your entire looped scaling chain is based on egregiously wrong assumptions that don't at all reflect my actual argument.

As for Silverfish, as mentioned by Wokistan above, barely surviving a hit doesn't justify a tier rating. Plus, a crit from an Iron Sword can definitely one-shot a silverfish. So that's also wrong, and I mentioned it in the original post. Seriously, just read the original post, because you keep making arguments I addressed long before you brought them up, and it's starting to get annoying to repeat them.

Anyone who has played Minecraft KNOWS fighting the Ender Dragon in iron armor is only a factor if you plan on not getting hit.

And fighting off Enderman is not fighting of the Ender Dragon either. For one thing, the Ender Dragon does more damage, for another, it has a far FAR higher health count which allows it to survive said 8-B explosion as I've pointed out, and for yet another, it has feats of destroying said blocks which can withstand said explosion and another feat that gives it the Low 7-C key. On top of that, the dragon scales to the Wither, who can perform similar levels of feats. It's a blatant outlier to compare the Enderman to the Ender Dragon at all. If this were to be seriously considered, their key would be "High 8-C, Possibly 8-B" at the most. They already have something like that for their durability section via downscaling from iron golems anyways.

And the multiplier isn't even weird, the lore straight up says that the reason the Ender Dragon can withstand so many hits to its body is because of its tough hide, explicitly saying it is tougher than anything other living thing in the game, and then the game backs it up with the amount of damage being done to the ender dagon decreasing to a quarter of its health. It's pretty obvious the implication here is that not as much of that durable hide is on the Ender Dragon's head. For once, the lore and game mechanics finally agree on something, yet you want it discarded?

I honestly disagree, Edward and I have both beat The Ender Dragon with iron armor without excessive difficulty, and neither of us are professionals. I'll relax on this point, as we're beginning to step into "You can beat The Ender Dragon with fists" territory, but I do personally believe that the average player absolutely can accomplish it in full iron armor without any cheesy, unintended tricks. Regardless, I'll leave it at that, as if you disagree with me, we're both simply going off of opinions.

So, back to the rest. None of what you said disallows downscaling, for one. The Ender Dragon does not one-shot Endermen and lacks the damage to do so, so while The Ender Dragon upscales by a pretty reasonable amount, assuming no scaling there is a concept based off of nothing.

As for the head, that may be true, but it's also a matter that we scale it's current durability strictly to it's head, and are ignoring both how heads are typically more vulnerable to attacks simply due to containing lots of vital organs, and how the calc we're scaling it to should likely apply to it's body as well. Equally, I'm not a fan of getting huge multipliers like this. Alas, it doesn't relate to my scaling, simply the values of such, so we can leave it up to the people to decide and vote - Agnaa seems to be against it, at least, but nobody else has voice extensively.

Blatant lie. I've posted NUMEROUS mobestiary links and thread links in that message, and you're saying I posted absolutely zero. Your entire argument was focused on the damage points of the game, that's literally the reason behind me saying that you are focused too much on game mechanics, and then used fall damage as an example of what happens from taking game mechanics too seriously. My argument is literally the opposite of that, so no, that would not be a problem at all with my tiers, one, that literally has absolutely zero to do with the calcs, two, and as I've explained earlier in this paragraph, it would fit as an outlier of game mechanics, three.

I'd appreciate it if you wouldn't say that I'm not posting evidence to back up my points again. I'm completely you posted evidence to back up your points. Whether or not I agree with it, I'm not here lying and saying you're posting no evidence whatsoever.

First of all you brought up two, one of which didn't actually contribute anything and wasn't actually evidence, and the other of which I addressed later in my post in an edit as I missed it when typing the first time around. So... alright? If "2" is your definition for "numerous" then that's cool and I guess you're right, but I still think the evidence is circumstantial, weak, or outright irrelevant at best.

Terraria is a very similar game to Minecraft, so using it as an analogy is fair game, especially when I'm pointing it out as a comparison.
Terraria doesn't even have definitive tiers. They have nothing but a scaling chain for 75% of the entire game, Terraria ironically has less feats to solidify their tiers than Minecraft. I know, because I'm one of the people who helped revise it. So with that in mind, the start and of Terraria has a similar level of progression as Minecraft.

None of this actually debunks my point that Terraria has a definitive system for tiering and rarity, plus a linear progression of bosses, armors, when you can get them, and more, all of which would be factors to consider in Terraria revisions, but not in Minecraft.

I've already clarified the obsidian issue above. I've also repeated myself on how to work with DPS, something you skipped over previously. I never made any assumption about axes being unable to be enchanted at all, so that's a strawman. I elaborated on how your points of damage are flawed since you didn't catch on the first time. I have never debunked my calculations, what are you on about? You never even SAID anything about me debunking my calculations. I provided an example of fall damage, which is an inconsistency issue throughout ALL of fiction, in order to show why you shouldn't be taking damage points seriously, and you're considering that some sort of legitimate antifeat. And, as provided above, Terraria was a good comparison to make.

So basically overall, you completely misunderstood 80% of my points, and somehow construed it in your head that I "debunked" my feats somehow.

As I've elaborated above and in this debate, I have proved that you have failed to again make any arguments and have not debunked any of my points. You clarified yourself on obsidian, yes, but left yourself with a weak and ineffectual point based off of a potentially durability-negating blast and a boss who can destroy one block, and equating pickaxe strength to weapon strength. DPS, no matter how you spin it, is still a matter of speed, not AP, and you have not proved otherwise. If you claim you did not make assumptions about axes not being enchanted, that means you accept that they can be, and equally, concede your point that an enchanted sword > an axe because that assumes you can't simply enchant an axe to be equal.

Furthermore, you haven't actually explained why my damage point values are wrong at all - you brought up Creeper scaling, which is unbelievably incorrect due to a simple word called "downscaling", and iron swords not one-shotting silverfish, which is also wrong because of crits and the matter that barely surviving a hit does not qualify for downscaling. Fall damage doesn't even remotely relate to this matter, so I don't see why you brought it up, as fall damage doing tons of damage is quite obviously a matter of if a tier is an outlier or not, not a problem with my scaling. And, again, I've pointed out that Terraria is a really bad comparison, and you have failed to debunk my points as to the rarity system, lineup of linear bosses, and ores/materials locked behind a strict progression system, all of which are not present in Minecraft.

Additionally, you indeed questioned the legitimacy of your own calculations. By bringing up Fall Damage, you brought up evidence for why 7-B is an outlier, which not only doesn't debate my argument, but actually debates your own.

So, while you say I've failed to debunk your points, I have, and in great detail. You can keep reiterating your points all you want but you're continuing to not actually bring up true evidence or counterpoints. I still stand that your best piece of evidence is...

Are you even paying attention to the context of the word "suggest"? No. You're not, you're ignoring the context to prove your point.
So I will quote it word for word.
"There are many ways to fight the wither. Some use trickery, summoning it in such a place that it suffocates in bedrock. But I suggest a more sensible one. Take a strong bow for the first half of the battle, when it flies high. Put on your diamond armor and enchant it with protection, which prevents one from becoming diseased, and carry a diamond sword with smite to increase damage against this undead horror. Have ready potions of health and strength, and golden apples."
The context of the word suggest here is pretty obvious. One method of killing the wither is putting it to suffocate in bedrock, but direct combat is more sensible. Sensible, meaning "chosen in accordance with wisdom or prudence" and having synonyms of practical and realistic and reasonable. The word "suggest" in this context had nothing to do with what you're implying it to mean.

... The Wither, which has devolved into purely semantics. What you say doesn't actually change the fact that it's still a suggestion, not an absolute law. Personally, I find The Wither harder than The Ender Dragon anyways, but there's not much in canon putting that in place. Regardless, I'll admit this is an alright point, and I'll concede that it's a fair argument, but I'll still go on record to say that it's not enough to not justify downscaling due to how small the power gaps are, and how it's still worded as a suggestion.

 

[Antvasima]

So is the consensus here that this has been accepted?

 

[DeathstroketheHedgehog]

I have major tests I'm studying for so I'll cut to the important points.

Alright, good that you clarified, and now your argument makes more sense. I still disagree, both on the account that we don't directly scale pickaxe strength to pickaxe damage to AP (or else you'd actually be supporting my argument, as a diamond pickaxe is a really shitty weapon, so while it can mine obsidian, it can't be used in combat). Additionally, you are using the false pretense that, because a pickaxe can mine a single ore of a certain block, and a boss enemy can possibly destroy said block depending on the boss, the block, and what kind of attack, that only materials of that tier should scale. Bit of a stretch.

Not to mention, blue skulls act differently and actually statistically reduce blast resistance in blocks, rather than simply blowing them up by force. While it's hard to determine what this means in a VSBW context, it brings further doubt to your argument that we should scale off of destroying netherrite/obsidian as the bosses are limited in their abilities to destroy it, with The Ender Dragon being unable to destroy obsidian, and The Wither relying on a pseudo-statistic reduction attack to destroy either. (Not to mention, you shun game mechanics, just to use netherrite/obsidian having the same explosive values? How does that make sense?)
You skipped over this part: "(because as a game with game mechanic limitations of health points and damage points)"

I never even brought up pickaxes in the first place, (though pickaxes would be supporting evidence). The last time pickaxes was even brought up in this thread was some topic about gold pickaxes from earlier. So what false pretense are you even talking about here? The scaling comes from only enchanted diamond and netherite gear can reliably take constant and repetitive damage from the Boss mobs without having the worry to dodge or die in a few hits.

"The wither can smash blocks that lie in its way, and even obsidian will crumble. Only bedrock and End Portal blocks can withstand it." This context implies that this isn't some durability negating technique, this is raw power. Unlike the Ender Dragon body scenario, where the damage reduction is actually notable in-game and there is lore to back it up, the supposed durability negation for the blue wither skulls comes solely from looking into the coding of how blue wither skulls destroy blocks. Literally nothing else. There is no canonical statement of durability negating technique from blue wither skulls otherwise. That shouldn't even be a thing. Ironically, you try to requote me about game mechanics when you unknowingly bring up game mechanics in order to debunk boss tiers scaling to block destruction.

And to reiterate: The Ender Dragon doesn't destroy obsidian for the sake of game mechanics and not destroying the battlefield. The wither's crunch attack and blue wither skulls still destroy obsidian, it was only the Wither's ramming attack that I figured out didn't destroy obsidian.

Cool argument, still wrong. Speed is separate from AP. It doesn't matter how fast an axe takes to swing, because it's AP is the same, and it'll have the same AP rating. No matter how much you elaborate on it, you're operating on an incorrect assumption that faster speed = faster AP, which is only correct in kinetic energy calculations, which are not at all relevant to this conversation.

Also, using Terraria as an example is still awful because Terraria has extremely clear-cut scaling down to literal tiers of rarity and strength for it's scaling, making it an entirely different beast than Minecraft. Plus, I'm not debating Terraria here, so I have literally no reason to debate Terraria's tiers and the non sequitur that is. And a single line from a single dude saying "You should use swords!" doesn't change the fact that axes are viable weapons that have effects and abilities exclusively for combat, such as breaking shields. Hell, Vindicators and Piglin Brutes both use axes as weapons. You can't say axes aren't weapons, because they are.

That entire first paragraph doesn't even directly attack my point, it's just you basically repeating yourself.

And your second comment is basically saying "because Minecraft doesn't have flashing item names, it's not the same thing," completely ignoring the fact that certain tiers of tools cannot properly mine certain blocks, and you need a higher tier tool to collect it.

I have never went out my way to say that axes were not weapons, at all, dunno where you got that from. I am saying in terms of usage, swords of the similar quality are the better choice.

... Again, this is so obviously wrong that if you read the OP it would just be solved by looking at it a tiny bit. I literally said that most mobs would downscale from The Wither/The Ender Dragon, since... that makes sense. So your entire looped scaling chain is based on egregiously wrong assumptions that don't at all reflect my actual argument.

As for Silverfish, as mentioned by Wokistan above, barely surviving a hit doesn't justify a tier rating. Plus, a crit from an Iron Sword can definitely one-shot a silverfish. So that's also wrong, and I mentioned it in the original post. Seriously, just read the original post, because you keep making arguments I addressed long before you brought them up, and it's starting to get annoying to repeat them.

Except it doesn't make sense. An Enderman can't even hit the Ender Dragon, but assuming that they could trade blows, by the time the Dragon killed the Enderman, it would still have 86% of its health left, and that's assuming the head is struck. Otherwise, the Ender Dragon could still have up to 96.5% of its health left. That's no reliable reason to scale to a Minecraft boss tier, not even as a downscale. This would be like the player trading blows with an Enderman and killing it while still have 9-10 hearts remaining. It's a massive stomp for the Enderman, and even worse if you come with weaker mobs, such as the zombie or skeleton. The zombie would be killed with the Ender Dragon still having 97% of its health left worst case scenario and 99.25% best case scenario. It's completely obvious that these mobs should not even be able to qualify for downscaling.

I honestly disagree, Edward and I have both beat The Ender Dragon with iron armor without excessive difficulty, and neither of us are professionals. I'll relax on this point, as we're beginning to step into "You can beat The Ender Dragon with fists" territory, but I do personally believe that the average player absolutely can accomplish it in full iron armor without any cheesy, unintended tricks. Regardless, I'll leave it at that, as if you disagree with me, we're both simply going off of opinions.

So, back to the rest. None of what you said disallows downscaling, for one. The Ender Dragon does not one-shot Endermen and lacks the damage to do so, so while The Ender Dragon upscales by a pretty reasonable amount, assuming no scaling there is a concept based off of nothing.

As for the head, that may be true, but it's also a matter that we scale it's current durability strictly to it's head, and are ignoring both how heads are typically more vulnerable to attacks simply due to containing lots of vital organs, and how the calc we're scaling it to should likely apply to it's body as well. Equally, I'm not a fan of getting huge multipliers like this. Alas, it doesn't relate to my scaling, simply the values of such, so we can leave it up to the people to decide and vote - Agnaa seems to be against it, at least, but nobody else has voice extensively.

I'm not saying it's impossible to beat the game with Iron Armor, Minecraft's simplistic AI makes the game fairly easy to beat so long as you keep your focus and avoid taking reckless damage.

I pointed out that it's if you plan on not getting repeatedly hit. As I explained with the whole trading blows scenario, if one set up a match where an iron geared player went into a melee match with the Ender Dragon, they would not deal anywhere near major damage to the Ender Dragon before they die. In fact, they would get the same results as an Enderman fighting an Ender Dragon. Meanwhile a max geared Player can reliably go take the damage and go head-to-head. Of course if you aim not to get repeatedly hit throughout the battle, you can last longer. Literally any game with hitpoints and health bars work that way.

It's not just a head being more vulnerable issue. It's blatantly a thing shown in-game as well that the body takes massively less damage than the body. This is a feature exclusively towards the Ender Dragon and no other mob in the game, so it is a COMPLETELY intentional mechanic. The logic you're proposing is nothing but a matter of injury. We can withstand injury to the rest of our body better than a blow to the brain. But that logic is not only just common sense, but that's more along the lines of endurance. This is outright durability, damage is outright being mitigated upon impact with the body.

As I've elaborated above and in this debate, I have proved that you have failed to again make any arguments and have not debunked any of my points. You clarified yourself on obsidian, yes, but left yourself with a weak and ineffectual point based off of a potentially durability-negating blast and a boss who can destroy one block, and equating pickaxe strength to weapon strength. DPS, no matter how you spin it, is still a matter of speed, not AP, and you have not proved otherwise. If you claim you did not make assumptions about axes not being enchanted, that means you accept that they can be, and equally, concede your point that an enchanted sword > an axe because that assumes you can't simply enchant an axe to be equal.

Furthermore, you haven't actually explained why my damage point values are wrong at all - you brought up Creeper scaling, which is unbelievably incorrect due to a simple word called "downscaling", and iron swords not one-shotting silverfish, which is also wrong because of crits and the matter that barely surviving a hit does not qualify for downscaling. Fall damage doesn't even remotely relate to this matter, so I don't see why you brought it up, as fall damage doing tons of damage is quite obviously a matter of if a tier is an outlier or not, not a problem with my scaling. And, again, I've pointed out that Terraria is a really bad comparison, and you have failed to debunk my points as to the rarity system, lineup of linear bosses, and ores/materials locked behind a strict progression system, all of which are not present in Minecraft.

Additionally, you indeed questioned the legitimacy of your own calculations. By bringing up Fall Damage, you brought up evidence for why 7-B is an outlier, which not only doesn't debate my argument, but actually debates your own.

So, while you say I've failed to debunk your points, I have, and in great detail. You can keep reiterating your points all you want but you're continuing to not actually bring up true evidence or counterpoints. I still stand that your best piece of evidence is...
... The Wither, which has devolved into purely semantics. What you say doesn't actually change the fact that it's still a suggestion, not an absolute law. Personally, I find The Wither harder than The Ender Dragon anyways, but there's not much in canon putting that in place. Regardless, I'll admit this is an alright point, and I'll concede that it's a fair argument, but I'll still go on record to say that it's not enough to not justify downscaling due to how small the power gaps are, and how it's still worded as a suggestion.

Hold up. "you brought up Creeper scaling, which is unbelievably incorrect due to a simple word called "downscaling", and iron swords not one-shotting silverfish, which is also wrong because of crits and the matter that barely surviving a hit does not qualify for downscaling."
Dude.
You just debunked your own scaling.
Zombies and Skeletons are examples of mobs that are oneshot by Creepers. Not even Charged Creepers, just normal creepers. By your very own logic, they shouldn't scale. Boss Mobs can survive that damage and therefore by your logic they can scale to it, which puts them at stomping levels above zombies. Now suddenly there's a missing gap in your scaling chain. Ironically, you still push to believe that I debunked my own calc by pointing out fall damage.

And you never even addressed my explanation for fall damage so I'll quote it again: "I provided an example of fall damage, which is an inconsistency issue throughout ALL of fiction, in order to show why you shouldn't be taking damage points seriously, and you're considering that some sort of legitimate antifeat."