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Mario Joins the Low 1-C Gang!?

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The_Smashor said:
I'm 90% sure that immeasurable speed just isn't how immeasurable speed works. Also it's a huge outlier for Mario.
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You can get immeasurable by traveling to other universes with speed. In the void's case, it's within every space-time and moves through them at the same time.
 
Maverick advertised this as base Mario

Anyways, the 5D seems iffy, since there's no indication that the Void would effect the space given it's considered outside of the conventional universe. I do agree with the Higher Dimensional Existence/Manipulation for Mario, but it's definitely not combat applicable.
 
The_Smashor said:
Anyways, the 5D seems iffy, since there's no indication that the Void would effect the space given it's considered outside of the conventional universe. I do agree with the Higher Dimensional Existence/Manipulation for Mario, but it's definitely not combat applicable.
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To be clear, he only scales with pure hearts. Cutout is probably just "Unknown" at best. Also, the Void was going to destroy all of existence, all worlds and all dimensions. It's heavily implied throughout the game that everything is gonna be erased, so naturally this place would follow suit.
 
The_Smashor said:
Anyways, the 5D seems iffy, since there's no indication that the Void would effect the space given it's considered outside of the conventional universe. I do agree with the Higher Dimensional Existence/Manipulation for Mario, but it's definitely not combat applicable.
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Void is stated to destroy all of existence
 
So just some notes, since this entire thing seems to be based on the Japanese of a single scan backing it up

You took your time specifying that koeru can mean "to cross over; to cross; to pass through; to pass over (out of); to go beyond; to go past" (usually when it's 越える) or "to exceed; to surpass; to be more (than) (usually when it's 超える) however, you seem to have completely neglected to mention that jigen has more meanings than the Wikipedia definition of dimension, by instantly arguing it's only been used for that.

Even with the site you used, they specify it can mean "dimension" (no further explanation), "perspective; point of reference; level (of something)", and then the third listed definition is a Wikipedia one. Which means this could very well have been intended to say something along the lines of "exceeding or surpassing your perspective" rather than transcending dimensions, and translators just took liberties with it, which would make more sense considering the act of transcending dimensions is literally just you moving to the foreground.

Ignoring the translation things though, why are you considering the cutout function as transporting you to another part of the cosmology? Like, it's not a world or anything, its just using Huey's power to shift to 3d (aka just move to the foreground) and be able to cut paper (which also is never specified to be cutting space time unlike what the op says).
 
Paul_Frank said:
Even with the site you used, they specify it can mean "dimension" (no further explanation), "perspective; point of reference; level (of something)", and then the third listed definition is a Wikipedia one. Which means this could very well have been intended to say something along the lines of "exceeding or surpassing your perspective" rather than transcending dimensions, and translators just took liberties with it, which would make more sense considering the act of transcending dimensions is literally just you moving to the foreground.
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That's because it doesn't hold up as a case by case basis. For starters, you ignore the fact that it says it transcends space and time, that already tells us they are straight up talking about space. That same term jigen has only referred to spatial dimensions within Mario, as well as the fact that the Cutout ability even references Flip in one of the areas within the game.


Paul_Frank said:
Ignoring the translation things though, why are you considering the cutout function as transporting you to another part of the cosmology? Like, it's not a world or anything, its just using Huey's power to shift to 3d (aka just move to the foreground) and be able to cut paper (which also is never specified to be cutting space time unlike what the op says).
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Because you have to transcend space and time to reach there, it would have to be an area that exists. Also, it's implied that Mario is affecting the Game World. It's cutting through space and time because the entire world appears as scenery he can cut into, world in this context referring to space-time because that's what the game says it's superior to. And we know he's not superior in any other way aside from dimensionality, which frankly is just Nintendo's way of portraying lower dimensions by making them appear fictional. The fact that the entire world appears to paper to him and he can cut into it implies that he's cutting into the fabric of reality and then restoring it.
 
liluzivert said:
That's because it doesn't hold up as a case by case basis. For starters, you ignore the fact that it says it transcends space and time, that already tells us they are straight up talking about space. That same term jigen has only referred to spatial dimensions within Mario, as well as the fact that the Cutout ability even references Flip in one of the areas within the game.
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A Toad saying that the lines transcend time and space once doesn't mean that every use of Jigen always means a spatial dimension. If you'd like to use that as an argument to explain why it could not have possibly been any definition for the word besides that third definition, it'd benefit you to provide more instances to prove this. You have evidence that they use a different word for parallel worlds, not that they only use jigen for spatial dimensions that qualify for tiering however. A single usage of jigen as dimension in the name "dimension flip", doesn't instantly mean it can mean nothing else ever.

The flip ability also kind of like, well, hurts your point that they mean they're transcending dimensions, because Huey specifically says he's helping you hold that perspective. He's just allowing you to see the world from thay angle. If you'd recall, perspective is one of the translations for jigen as well.
liluzivert said:
Because you have to transcend space and time to reach there, it would have to be an area that exists. Also, it's implied that Mario is affecting the Game World. The fact that the entire world appears to paper to him and he can cut into it implies that he's cutting into the fabric of reality and then restoring it.
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None of this has exactly explained why you're considering cutout a world or part of the cosmology. Even if we assumed he's transcending the 4th dimension and becoming 5th dimensional in a tiering applicable way, this doesn't suddenly mean there's a world he's traveling to to do so, or that this is a level of the cosmology that everything can now scale to. With the explanations you gave, it wouldn't even be him entering a 5th dimensional area, it'd be him temporarily becoming 5d, which wouldn't scale to the cosmology or void, and would be, at best, temporary HDE and HDM with cutout.

Whatever scan you linked here doesn't work, but if your explanation for why it's him cutting into space time is
It's cutting through space and time because the entire world appears as scenery he can cut into, world in this context referring to space-time because that's what the game says it's superior to. And we know he's not superior in any other way aside from dimensionality, which frankly is just Nintendo's way of portraying lower dimensions by making them appear fictional.
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There's some issues with this, you're assuming he's cutting space-time like paper based on Toad (no clue why you're taking his word as gospel and super knowledgeable either) says the lines appeared out of the ether, transcending the boundaries of time and space. I'm not even going to argue for how this doesn't even necessarily say that the lines are transcending time and space, to instead ask this. If the lines are transcending time and space as you're trying to say, why are they equally as flat as the rest of the world to Mario? If the lines were 5d as you're trying to posit, and Mario is also 5d by using cutout, they wouldn't just be flat objects for him to cut along.
 
I'm not normally a fan of scaling a cosmology wipe to something that didn't exist when it happened but then I was saw that the Void was suppose to destroy all dimensions, so I might agree if it says that in the Japanese version
 
Paul_Frank said:
A Toad saying that the lines transcend time and space once doesn't mean that every use of Jigen always means a spatial dimension. If you'd like to use that as an argument to explain why it could not have possibly been any definition for the word besides that third definition, it'd benefit you to provide more instances to prove this. You have evidence that they use a different word for parallel worlds, not that they only use jigen for spatial dimensions that qualify for tiering however. A single usage of jigen as dimension in the name "dimension flip", doesn't instantly mean it can mean nothing else ever.
Click to expand...
No, you're just ignoring the context. Jigen can mean perspective sure, but the problem is that the fact that the toad says it transcends space and time, while huey says it transcends dimensions. It's referring to the same thing. Dimensions can mean space and time, and YOU will have to prove that it does not. If it's quite literally just perspective then there really isn't a reason to say it's superior to time and space.

You also said it could mean "exeeding your own perspective" which is not what the sentence says at all. the word "you" isn't anywhere within the sentence, and the term dimension is plural here. If we go with what you are saying, it's "exceeding perspectives" which doesn't tell us much. What perspectives? What do they mean? If I use the term dimension for space it makes much more sense, the Toad tells us it transcends spacetime, space-time is a 4-dimensional manifold, and Mario is transcending the dimensions of it.

If you want extra proof btw, the Void's name in Japanese is "次元の穴" (Jigen no Ana) for "Dimensional Hole" The Void is stated to be a hole in the dimensional fabric of space

Paul_Frank said:
The flip ability also kind of like, well, hurts your point that they mean they're transcending dimensions, because Huey specifically says he's helping you hold that perspective. He's just allowing you to see the world from thay angle. If you'd recall, perspective is one of the translations for jigen as well.
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Yeah, because you're nitpicking the wording. Spatial dimensions still has perspectives, just using the word perspective doesn't debunk anything, they're still "flipping" from 2D to 3D as a reference to dimensional move. The fact that they HAVE to change "perspectives" to get past only proves the evidence of them talking about actual spatial dimensions.


Paul_Frank said:
None of this has exactly explained why you're considering cutout a world or part of the cosmology. Even if we assumed he's transcending the 4th dimension and becoming 5th dimensional in a tiering applicable way, this doesn't suddenly mean there's a world he's traveling to to do so, or that this is a level of the cosmology that everything can now scale to. With the explanations you gave, it wouldn't even be him entering a 5th dimensional area, it'd be him temporarily becoming 5d, which wouldn't scale to the cosmology or void, and would be, at best, temporary HDE and HDM with cutout.
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Either the place already exists, or Mario creates it when using Cutout. The fact that there IS an axis that Mario can transcend dimensions to proves that it exists. If there were no axis that allowed him to view the world the way he does, then he'd just be transported to an area of nothingness. He wouldn't even see the world because he's cut off from existence. This just harms your point more.
Paul_Frank said:
There's some issues with this, you're assuming he's cutting space-time like paper based on Toad (no clue why you're taking his word as gospel and super knowledgeable either)
Click to expand...
Who cares if it's a Toad? Why does it matter when he's clearly knowledgeable on what the ability does? Why does it matter when everything he says lines up with Huey?
Paul_Frank said:
says the lines appeared out of the ether, transcending the boundaries of time and space. I'm not even going to argue for how this doesn't even necessarily say that the lines are transcending time and space, to instead ask this. If the lines are transcending time and space as you're trying to say, why are they equally as flat as the rest of the world to Mario? If the lines were 5d as you're trying to posit, and Mario is also 5d by using cutout, they wouldn't just be flat objects for him to cut along.
Click to expand...
It becomes superior to the dimensional boundaries of time and space, and it transcends dimensions. Looks like the two sentences are connected.

And are we really going to nitpick how it looks within Mario's world? It's just there so that the player can see where to cut. Because when you actually use cutout, the lines appear alongside the paper for you to cutout, and the act of him cutting out the "background" with the lines with transdimensional scissors is what he's referring to. Again, more nitpicks that don't really debunk what we see.



And on that note, I would REALLY love to hear any fictional japanese adventure game that uses the term "jigen" for perspective only. In fact, I'd love to hear some that use the term dimension for perspective in English too, because what you're saying is not even remotely common in fiction, let alone in Mario.
 
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Perhaps infinite speed might work? Given World 5 is literally an infinite expanse of space that was also going to be devoured?
 
From the OP I don't see how that is immeasurable, either. As others have said, moving between universes and stuff is not Immeasurable. Consider that an immeasurable character is capable of reaction to an attack to its own past fast enough to block it. I don't see how that would be implied here.

As for the former thing... the visuals don't exactly support it, which doesn't necessarily mean anything. That being said, I feel like the power to surpass dimensions, without further feats, is not necessarily enough to qualify for that high of a tier. By the limited context I get, I assume that this power doesn't exactly turn Mario powerful enough to smite everything in the game that doesn't have a similar ability. I can see the ability allowing Mario to go beyond three-dimensional space, but not that it gives him superior power over it. It should be added that even abilities that can affect higher dimensions (e.g. Curtana) are not necessarily Tier 1 if they don't do so in a sufficiently extensive way. It's just good hax in such cases.
What extending the size of the cosmology is concerned... well, maybe. I can see two counterarguments against that, though.
1. Technically speaking we could deal with something like Type 0 Beyond Dimensional Existence for 3 dimensions, rather than a higher-dimensional space. In that case the world itself wouldn't be any larger, Mario would just be outside of it.
2. If we assume it to be a higher dimension, it would still need to contain something to be relevant. If the extra dimension is just a vacuum than anything regarding the 'whole world' would be complete even without it. From what I'm given I don't know if it does contain higher-dimensional objects or not.
 
DontTalkDT said:
From the OP I don't see how that is immeasurable, either. As others have said, moving between universes and stuff is not Immeasurable. Consider that an immeasurable character is capable of reaction to an attack to its own past fast enough to block it. I don't see how that would be implied here.

As for the former thing... the visuals don't exactly support it, which doesn't necessarily mean anything. That being said, I feel like the power to surpass dimensions, without further feats, is not necessarily enough to qualify for that high of a tier. By the limited context I get, I assume that this power doesn't exactly turn Mario powerful enough to smite everything in the game that doesn't have a similar ability. I can see the ability allowing Mario to go beyond three-dimensional space, but not that it gives him superior power over it. It should be added that even abilities that can affect higher dimensions (e.g. Curtana) are not necessarily Tier 1 if they don't do so in a sufficiently extensive way. It's just good hax in such cases.
Click to expand...
I should add this on the thread, but Mario with Cutout does NOT scale, it's just the pure hearts and the Void destroying the cosmology.
DontTalkDT said:
What extending the size of the cosmology is concerned... well, maybe. I can see two counterarguments against that, though.
1. Technically speaking we could deal with something like Type 0 Beyond Dimensional Existence for 3 dimensions, rather than a higher-dimensional space. In that case the world itself wouldn't be any larger, Mario would just be outside of it.
2. If we assume it to be a higher dimension, it would still need to contain something to be relevant. If the extra dimension is just a vacuum than anything regarding the 'whole world' would be complete even without it. From what I'm given I don't know if it does contain higher-dimensional objects or not.
Click to expand...
1. It would make sense if we just didn't have visuals or context to the ability. But as a whole, it causes quite a few contradictions.

One, Mario should not be able to see his world at all if he was in an area that lacks space and time.

Two, his view of the world changes to something akin to something insignificant, which indicates he's viewing the world differently. You can see it falls down to the gamepad screen like it's an image, and then when he cuts it there's basically no depth. Now it's not that he's flat out viewing things as flat; paper isn't actually flat by nature, but it's because he's viewing his world as fictional with the ability (or as the tiering system says, Mario is becoming more "real" compared to the place). You can also see this better with the Paperize ability, which lets Mario see the world as an image on a surface.

And three, like I stated in the OP, the kanji used state that he is superior to time and space, not exactly crossing/going outside. They wouldn't use that kanji if they wanted to say he was going outside spacetime without being superior.

2. Well, it being a vacuum in particular wouldn't save it from the Void, it's still space and thus can be erased by it. But there are objects here though. Cutout is similar in premise to Paperize, it's seen as the same area, so like I said before there would be a surface the paper is on top of. For cutout specifically, after getting a Paint Star, you do get sent to the Cutout world with a platform and some paint to pick up. You can also paint thing cards up there too, but I will need to compile more scans.
 
liluzivert said:
Two, his view of the world changes to something akin to something insignificant, which indicates he's viewing the world differently. You can see it falls down to the gamepad screen like it's an image, and then when he cuts it there's basically no depth. Now it's not that he's flat out viewing things as flat; paper isn't actually flat by nature, but it's because he's viewing his world as fictional with the ability (or as the tiering system says, Mario is becoming more "real" compared to the place). You can also see this better with the Paperize ability, which lets Mario see the world as an image on a surface.
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I think the main point of the CRT is trying to upgrade Mario based on a reality fiction interaction between what we consider in the standards right?
 
Gabs22_Gamer said:
I think the main point of the CRT is trying to upgrade Mario based on a reality fiction interaction between what we consider in the standards right?
Click to expand...
Yes, exactly! The point is that Mario can use the Cutout ability to go into a world where he can view his world as fictional/less real than him. Mario with the ability has shown no superiority over the place he’s in, so he doesn’t scale to the tier. But he would get Higher Dimensional existence and other hax to boot. And I think this is valid with all of the wording used when using the ability (being superior to time, space, and dimensions, etc.)

I am saying that this place (the Cutout World) would be destroyed by the Void. And that the void was going to destroy the entire Marioverse (which is currently rated 2-B due to the Dream Depot)

Also, if you can’t get immeasurable that way, I can remove it from the OP. I assumed that since destroying two universes is assumed to be 2-C due to bypassing dimensional barriers, I thought this would apply here but that’s fine either way.
 
It seems like people are confused with the context here, and it seems to get more and more lost the more people comment. And it seems like the image links aren’t working either for most people.

With that in mind, I think this can just be closed. If I do come back here, I’ll probably make a clearer thread that explains what’s happening with more scans and what not.

Since higher dimensional manip seems agreed on, that can be applied and this thread can just be closed.
 
Okay. Is somebody willing to add higher-dimensional manipulation first then?
 
I don't think any staff have agreed to Higher-Dimensional Manipulation yet, granted they haven't disagreed.
 
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