Marvel CM 1 Problems

[Robo432343]

I'm not gonna talk about NEP and PP or whatever I don't even understand those things good enough. But the whole "let's make this powers Non combat applicable because they are too OP" it's completely ridiculous, there is a reason there is a NFL rule where a character cannot use their powers in any way that wasn't shown to be able to do, just because a character can use CM1 to for example create a fire ball it doesn't mean they can erase concepts or whatever you imagine it's too OP for combat. It's like saying Superman's heat vision is not combat applicable because he can only use it from his eyes.
This smells like someone who had his favorite character being stomped by marvel magic

I did not say, "Let's make this powers Non combat applicable because they are too OP." The point i'm making is you don't get to give characters powers they were never shown. Your Superman example is horrible because he actually has feats of using heat vision in combat so its proved to be combat applicable. Your fireball example literally proves the opposite of what you’re trying to argue. If a character uses magic to create a fireball then that shows they can create a damn fireball there is no, "Conceptual Manipulation (Type 1), Information Manipulation (Type 2), Plot Manipulation" going on here.

 

[Theglassman12]

Not really buying the thread, this alongside the rest of the comments that are opposing the ability just don't really understand what the standards for Conceptual Manipulation is, gonna have to disagree with the OP.

 

[Hecky2222]

Not really buying the thread, this alongside the rest of the comments that are opposing the ability just don't really understand what the standards for Conceptual Manipulation is, gonna have to disagree with the OP.

thread also talks about PP and NEP also. Thoughts on that?

 

[KLOL506]

@Qawsedf234 @Elizhaa @LephyrTheRevanchist @Dereck03 @Firestorm808 @Emirp sumitpo @AbaddonTheDisappointment Your input here would be appreciated

@ProfectusInfinity @NaturalDestroyer Yours as well

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

I did not say, "Let's make this powers Non combat applicable because they are too OP." The point i'm making is you don't get to give characters powers they were never shown.

Your Superman example is horrible because he actually has feats of using heat vision in combat so its proved to be combat applicable. Your fireball example literally proves the opposite of what you’re trying to argue. If a character uses magic to create a fireball then that shows they can create a damn fireball there is no, "Conceptual Manipulation (Type 1), Information Manipulation (Type 2), Plot Manipulation going on here.

It seems you didn't understand my example.
CM1, Plot whatever is the means to an end, any use of magic is a result of CM1 Plot and all those things.
It's why I actually love this part

"Magic is taking a thought and making it real. Taking a lie and making it the truth. Telling a story to the universe so utterly, cosmically perfect that for a single, shining moment... the world believes a man can fly "

The fire ball spell is what happens when a character changes the plot, making the fireball which didn't exist before exist, the same way if you ask a genie that you wish 1 million dolars cash he is going to reality warp the money into existance but you are acting like what the genie does is paper manipulation because he created paper when actually it was reality warp. In this case CM1 and Plot manipulation is the way Marvel magic users create any "spell" whatsoever.
So to make it simple:
CM1, Plot...--->Fireball

 

[Antvasima]

The premise of this thread makes sense to me, so I currently agree with it.

 

[Eseseso]

I will say that giving someone like Hulk or Juggernaut magic doesn't instantly mean all their attacks are conceptual, it relies on how they actually use the magic.

Juggernaut arguably never really uses his magic offensively so it's more of an NPI/resistance buff than anything else (which makes sense since he's got a higher - dimensional magic demon giving him juice), and Hulk's magic is only in play when he uses gamma since gamma is magic.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

@Qawsedf234 @Elizhaa @LephyrTheRevanchist @Dereck03 @Firestorm808 @Emirp sumitpo @AbaddonTheDisappointment Your input here would be appreciated

Can't comment on the PP or NEP part, but I disagree with magic not being CM1 as elaborated by Esseso.

The true problem is that the page is making it seem that magic users can grab whatever concept they want and yeet them, with every consequence that entails for the powers also described in the page, which is not entirely true. It is limited to whatever specific spells and their particular effects, do (though damn it would be funny seeing Juggernaut grabbing the concept of earth and throwing it around and literally see that changing reality). This is honestly the only thing that needs fixing in that regard.

What the page needs to explain is that the particular narratives, concepts and ideas that are manipulated by and through magic, are tied to their specific incantations and individual applications within Magic. That's why certain capabilities aren't universal and only certain individuals can achieve them, with specific spells.

Despite the fact that Gamma Radiation has been treated as a form of magic, we don't see Hulk literally grabbing the plot of someone and doing Looney Tunes/Arale type shit. (Though being Marvel, there's probably a story where he does, I'm just giving an example of what I mean with my analysis)

The secondary problem is that people see a page and instantly assume whatever manipulation type power is citing is at the highest possible application and don't use critical thinking or even read the context that the page is trying to explain. But that's 100% a fault with people. So meh.

Anyways, those are my thoughts. There's probably some flaws, which is why in general I have been away from these general power pages discussions. There's always extra context that I'm simply not aware of. (Also the fact I quite simply don't agree with this practice at all, but that's entirely a personal thing that shouldn't influence how the wiki wants to index stuff, so meh)

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

I will say that giving someone like Hulk or Juggernaut magic doesn't instantly mean all their attacks are conceptual, it relies on how they actually use the magic.

Juggernaut arguably never really uses his magic offensively so it's more of an NPI/resistance buff than anything else (which makes sense since he's got a higher - dimensional magic demon giving him juice), and Hulk's magic is only in play when he uses gamma since gamma is magic.

And the page should explain this. Either by adding a weakness section or otherwise. Because if not, genuinely, it's making it seem that any random magic user in this verse can do all of that bs.

 

[Robo432343]

I will say that giving someone like Hulk or Juggernaut magic doesn't instantly mean all their attacks are conceptual, it relies on how they actually use the magic.

Juggernaut arguably never really uses his magic offensively so it's more of an NPI/resistance buff than anything else (which makes sense since he's got a higher - dimensional magic demon giving him juice), and Hulk's magic is only in play when he uses gamma since gamma is magic.

It is not just Hulk or Juggernaut that is the problem. Literally any normal character who has magic related stuff are getting abilities like Type 1 concept hax, information manip type 2, plot manipulation and more like the magic page is suggesting if people are going to keep making threads like this

 

[Robo432343]

Can't comment on the PP or NEP part, but I disagree with magic not being CM1 as elaborated by Esseso.

Yes, i stated in the OP that i agree with the nature of magic being CM 1 but disagree with so many basic magic users getting abilities from it

 

[Planck69]

It is not just Hulk or Juggernaut that is the problem. Literally any normal character who has magic related stuff are getting abilities like Type 1 concept hax, information manip type 2, plot manipulation and more like the magic page is suggesting if people are going to keep making threads like this

And? You have yet to elaborate anything that Lephyr hasn't explained.

Obviously the extent to which they can use these abilities and their limitations should be explained. But just denying them based on them sounding impressive is arguing from increduility.

 

[Planck69]

All that said, I do think a note on the different levels of magic explaining what they can or cannot do would solve this. If they can inherently blast souls with each left hook or just bend plot to create fire etc. That or adding to each Weakness section like Lephyr suggested but I think noting it on the Magic page itself would be more time efficient.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Yes, i stated in the OP that i agree with the nature of magic being CM 1 but disagree with so many basic magic users getting abilities from it

Except... Manipulating magic genuinely entail all of these, lol. Because that's what Magic is, that's the explanation of what's happening when you're using Magic. What you actually want is the extra elaboration that not any random magic user can use those powers in a reality warping kind of way where they literally change someone's Information and that affects them somehow.

But genuinely, when Marvel magic users conjure a fireball, they are ong manipulating the information, concept, narrative, etc that makes up the world to make it happen.

 

[Robo432343]

Obviously the extent to which they can use these abilities and their limitations should be explained

That's what i have been trying to say

 

[Planck69]

That's what i have been trying to say

No? You've been saying they shouldn't have it all if they do basic things. I disagree with that. Labeling the specifics of their plot/info/concept whatever is different.

 

[NaturalDestroyer]

It seems you didn't understand my example.
CM1, Plot whatever is the means to an end, any use of magic is a result of CM1 Plot and all those things.
It's why I actually love this part

The fire ball spell is what happens when a character changes the plot, making the fireball which didn't exist before exist, the same way if you ask a genie that you wish 1 million dolars cash he is going to reality warp the money into existance but you are acting like what the genie does is paper manipulation because he created paper when actually it was reality warp. In this case CM1 and Plot manipulation is the way Marvel magic users create any "spell" whatsoever.
So to make it simple:
CM1, Plot...--->Fireball

I agree with this

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Except... Manipulating magic genuinely entail all of these, lol. Because that's what Magic is, that's the explanation of what's happening when you're using Magic. What you actually want is the extra elaboration that not any random magic user can use those powers in a reality warping kind of way where they literally change someone's Information and that affects them somehow.

But genuinely, when Marvel magic users conjure a fireball, they are ong manipulating the information, concept, narrative, etc that makes up the world to make it happen.

Maybe this might help illustrate it completely for Robo:

If you wanted to somehow seal or block a Marvel magic users powers, you'd need to be able to interact with this kind of existence. It is easier then, to let them conjure whatever and just stop whatever it is they have conjured, because then you are interacting directly with the results of these manipulations, rather than their esoteric source in itself.

So for example, when gamma radiation is empowering Hulk, and you're a power nulling-type of character, if you aren't able to null the influence that narratives have over the world, you will not be able to nerf Hulk's power levels. You will have to match him blow for blow instead.

When Doctor Strange is mid casting, you will not be able to "grab" or stop his magic from spawning, but if he "just" summoned fire, you can counter it by throwing an equal amount of water, until he conjures up fire that's resistant to water (which should be well within his means as a master magic user).

So on and so forth.

Which means, not every spellcaster can conjure such water-resistant fire, as they may lack the knowledge to properly cite this narrative on the world. This is the type of elaboration the page should explain.

 

[Rgerdeena]

Maybe this might help illustrate it completely for Robo:

If you wanted to somehow seal or block a Marvel magic users powers, you'd need to be able to interact with this kind of existence. It is easier then, to let them conjure whatever and just stop whatever it is they have conjured, because then you are interacting directly with the results of these manipulations, rather than their esoteric source in itself.

So for example, when gamma radiation is empowering Hulk, and you're a power nulling-type of character, if you aren't able to null the influence that narratives have over the world, you will not be able to nerf Hulk's power levels. You will have to match him blow for blow instead.

When Doctor Strange is mid casting, you will not be able to "grab" or stop his magic from spawning, but if he "just" summoned fire, you can counter it by throwing an equal amount of water, until he conjures up fire that's resistant to water (which should be well within his means as a master magic user).

So on and so forth.

Which means, not every spellcaster can conjure such water-resistant fire, as they may lack the knowledge to properly cite this narrative on the world. This is the type of elaboration the page should explain.

Would just like to point out that how insane marvel’s magic is doesn’t even block all power nullification, like for example there was a time when xemnu used his powers to put mental barriers on doctor strange so doctor strange wasn’t able to use his powers, all Xemnu had to do was interact with doctor strange’s mind not doctor strange’s magic

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Would just like to point out that how insane marvel’s magic is doesn’t even block all power nullification, like for example there was a time when xemnu used his powers to put mental barriers on doctor strange so doctor strange wasn’t able to use his powers, all Xemnu had to do was interact with doctor strange’s mind not doctor strange’s magic

Correct.

 

[Planck69]

Would just like to point out that how insane marvel’s magic is doesn’t even block all power nullification, like for example there was a time when xemnu used his powers to put mental barriers on doctor strange so doctor strange wasn’t able to use his powers, all Xemnu had to do was interact with doctor strange’s mind not doctor strange’s magic

Is that not just Xenmu being able to interact with this magic/soul to begin with? To my knowledge the mind isn't really distinct from the soul in Marvel.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Is that not just Xenmu being able to interact with this magic/soul to begin with? To my knowledge the mind isn't really distinct from the soul in Marvel.

The overall point remains the same tho. Is a matter of application, knowledge and interaction.

 

[SuperNova55555]

Then I suppose it's a difference in our understanding of that page.

And appealing to Ultima here is somewhat meaningless cause even DT has said otherwise to how CM Type 1 is treated and I'd rather neither of us keep appealing to authority.

A couple months ago, DT said the almost the exact same thing I’m saying. By the way.

Quote:

Type 1 concept should be things at least similar to universals.

And I think we are both in rough agreement that marvel Magic has genuinely jack to do with universals. (I don’t believe I have to explain that they don’t travel in laylines like energy.)

And particularly, he also added:

This would definitely not apply for type 3, which is what vague abstraction usually goes into (it exists more or less for that).

Which is to say, that the category of “Type 3” is reserved for any real concept that isn’t a universal is the right sense. Which is where most of these “concepts” are supposed to end up in.

But whatever, you can keep appealing to these mystical “standards” (which you won’t find laid out anywhere on the wiki, btw), I’m not invested enough in marvel, anyways.

 

[Planck69]

The overall point remains the same tho. Is a matter of application, knowledge and interaction.

That's a fair point. So, we just note this on each page or will it just be a note on the Magic page itself?

 

[Tomfer]

Maybe I didn't quite got this right, but isn't all of this just more of a reason to use "Standard Tactics" on the profiles more often? I guess that's a litle more difficult for comic characters for obvious reasons, but there's enough material to set a certain pattern.

 

[Rgerdeena]

Is that not just Xenmu being able to interact with this magic/soul to begin with? To my knowledge the mind isn't really distinct from the soul in Marvel.

Him having telepathy in the first place already means that, telepathy in marvel does a lot of wonky stuff anyways(profesor x has used his telepathy to make physical energy blasts, there was a time when a bunch of telepaths accidentally trapped Jean grey’s physical body inside x man’s mind, etc etc)

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

That's a fair point. So, we just note this on each page or will it just be a note on the Magic page itself?

Esseso had already done a large revision detailing which specific spells/applications of magic individuals use, which each specific character already have. So this elaboration should go in the Magic Page itself imo.

 

[KirbyFan03]

It seems you didn't understand my example.
CM1, Plot whatever is the means to an end, any use of magic is a result of CM1 Plot and all those things.
It's why I actually love this part

The fire ball spell is what happens when a character changes the plot, making the fireball which didn't exist before exist, the same way if you ask a genie that you wish 1 million dolars cash he is going to reality warp the money into existance but you are acting like what the genie does is paper manipulation because he created paper when actually it was reality warp. In this case CM1 and Plot manipulation is the way Marvel magic users create any "spell" whatsoever.
So to make it simple:
CM1, Plot...--->Fireball

That's from my understanding yes. Magic brings about that fireball by manipulating said systems it's not like a narrative rewrite or feathering type stuff (most of the time)

 

[Robo432343]

A couple months ago, DT said the almost the exact same thing I’m saying. By the way.

Quote:

And I think we are both in rough agreement that marvel Magic has genuinely jack to do with universals. (I don’t believe I have to explain that they don’t travel in laylines like energy.)

And particularly, he also added:

Which is to say, that the category of “Type 3” is reserved for any real concept that isn’t a universal is the right sense. Which is where most of these “concepts” are supposed to end up in.

But whatever, you can keep appealing to these mystical “standards” (which you won’t find laid out anywhere on the wiki, btw), I’m not invested enough in marvel, anyways.

Then magic cannot be a universal because its not identical across all instances. The entire magic page explains this. A universal is supposed to be the same wherever it appears but the magic page talks about it being an energy that specifically has different types. (Chaos Magic, Asgardian Magic, Joten Magic etc). We've seen that magic is an energy that can be moved between places which proves its a particular like how you don't move the universal property of redness... you only move red objects. Though i think this is a thread for another time (already 3 pages), its similar to how Honkai CM got nuked
also bump

 

[KirbyFan03]

Then magic cannot be a universal because its not identical across all instances. The entire magic page explains this. A universal is supposed to be the same wherever it appears but the magic page talks about it being an energy that specifically has different types. (Chaos Magic, Asgardian Magic, Joten Magic etc). We've seen that magic is an energy that can be moved between places which proves its a particular like how you don't move the universal property of redness... you only move red objects. Though i think this is a thread for another time (already 3 pages), its similar to how Honkai CM got nuked
also bump

Wouldn't those types of magic be subsets/aspects of it?

 

[Robo432343]

Wouldn't those types of magic be subsets/aspects of it?

yeah thats why im confused with the universal standard for type 1 cm but magic itself has still shown to be an energy anyway

 

[KirbyFan03]

yeah thats why im confused with the universal standard for type 1 cm but magic itself has still shown to be an energy anyway

Perhaps the nature of magic is Conceptual but it can be contextualized into other magicks like Chaos, Asgardian etc

 

[Robo432343]

Perhaps the nature of magic is Conceptual but it can be contextualized into other magicks like Chaos, Asgardian etc

Then magic is conceptual but it wouldn't be a type 1 universal. If the nature of magic is an energy that has to be contextualized differently into many different types then its not a single identity. A universal must be identical wherever it appears, that's one of the requirements but magic is the opposite of that

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

Then magic is conceptual but it wouldn't be a type 1 universal. If the nature of magic is an energy that has to be contextualized differently into many different types then its not a single identity. A universal must be identical wherever it appears, that's one of the requirements but magic is the opposite of that

No, it's subtypes of magic, if you want an example it's just Strange academy where Asgardians, Doyle (dark dimension), Weird World creatures, even a bunch of other different types all learn the same things. Magic is magic.

 

[SuperNova55555]

Then magic cannot be a universal because its not identical across all instances. The entire magic page explains this. A universal is supposed to be the same wherever it appears but the magic page talks about it being an energy that specifically has different types. (Chaos Magic, Asgardian Magic, Joten Magic etc). We've seen that magic is an energy that can be moved between places which proves its a particular like how you don't move the universal property of redness... you only move red objects. Though i think this is a thread for another time (already 3 pages), its similar to how Honkai CM got nuked
also bump

There’s just really nothing about Magic that makes it a universal, or really, nothing about energy that makes it as such, either.

You could definitely have a universal of magic of which all other particles of magic are instances of, but that’d just mean magic isn’t a universal… which it shouldn’t be.

 

[Eseseso]

There’s just really nothing about Magic that makes it a universal, or really, nothing about energy that makes it as such, either.

You could definitely have a universal of magic of which all other particles of magic are instances of, but that’d just mean magic isn’t a universal… which it shouldn’t be.

Really? After reading an entire section of the magic blog (if you even read it at all) explaining how magic is conceptual and universal in nature, you didn't see anything that qualified in your opinion as universal?

Not the dozens of scans stating it to be a universal force?

 

[Eseseso]

Then magic cannot be a universal because its not identical across all instances. The entire magic page explains this. A universal is supposed to be the same wherever it appears but the magic page talks about it being an energy that specifically has different types. (Chaos Magic, Asgardian Magic, Joten Magic etc). We've seen that magic is an energy that can be moved between places which proves its a particular like how you don't move the universal property of redness... you only move red objects. Though i think this is a thread for another time (already 3 pages), its similar to how Honkai CM got nuked
also bump

Really? After reading an entire section of the magic blog (if you even read it at all) explaining how magic is conceptual and universal in nature, you didn't see anything that qualified in your opinion as universal?

Not the dozens of scans stating it to be a universal force?

 

[SuperNova55555]

Not the dozens of scans stating it to be a universal force?

CM1 doesn’t have anything to do with being a “universal force”. If it did, we’d grant every 3-A character CM1, but we don’t.

The reason why CM1 is “universal”, is because the property it instantiates is a particular instance of the universal itself.

For example, a “horse” is an instance of the universal of “animal”. “Animal”, in this case, is not some energy, or force, or whatnot. It’s js some conception. (That’s why a particular is called a species and the universal a genus; because a “horse” is a species of “animal”.) That’s why a horse here, or some horse in another universe aren’t suddenly using a “different universal” or whatever, because they’re both appealing to the same definition or conception. So you can be an instance of something in this universe, or an instance of the same thing in another universe.

Now, as I said before, nobody is asking a verse to word it out like this. That’s obviously absurd. But what it should do is have some object that is at least derivatively reminiscent of it.

It should at least be something like “a single abstract object that is necessary for the things it represents to exist”. That’s pretty much what you need, really.

 

[Eseseso]

CM1 doesn’t have anything to do with being a “universal force”. If it did, we’d grant every 3-A character CM1, but we don’t.

The reason why CM1 is “universal”, is because the property it instantiates is a particular instance of the universal itself.

For example, a “horse” is an instance of the universal of “animal”. “Animal”, in this case, is not some energy, or force, or whatnot. (That’s why a particular is called a species and the universal a genus; because a “horse” is a species of “animal”.) That’s why a horse here, or some horse in another universe aren’t suddenly using a “different universal” or whatever, because they’re both appealing to the same definition or conception.

Now, as I said before, nobody is asking a verse to word it out like this. That’s obviously absurd. But what it should do is have some object that is at least derivatively reminiscent of it.

It should at least be something like “a single abstract object that is necessary for the things it represents to exist”.

It's a conceptual force that not only exists everywhere in the universe but also governs much of the universe as well while being independent of it. Multiple scans on the blog show how magic at its core is manipulation of the literal universe to do whatever you want.

 

[SuperNova55555]

It's a conceptual force that not only exists everywhere in the universe but also governs much of the universe as well while being independent of it. Multiple scans on the blog show how magic at its core is manipulation of the literal universe to do whatever you want.

It’s an energy that is located everywhere. It’s an energy that beings possess in quantities. It’s an energy that travels in tunnels like leylines.

What does anything about this have to do with what I just said.