Marvel Comics: Possible Yggdrasil Upgrade (Staff only)

[Overlord775]

Why wouldn't we automatically assume that "outside of the multiverse" is "outside of Eternity" since the nordic worlds are part of the overall Marvel Multiverse ?

 

[Luck100]

Because the TWSAIS habit beyond eternity in the literal outside.

 

[Kepekley23]

1) Irrelevant, because Ginnungagap is established to be a 1-A realm and Thor ascends to a level of existence that allows him to match the TWSAIS' own. It could fit a Tier 2 cosmology were it not for the scans saying it doesn't.

2) Ginnungagap is the void that exists before creation itself. We have literally always treated such voids as 1-A. Arguing it isn't is mind-baffling, especially considering the fact that the Outside transcends even the Eighth Multiverse.

3) Loki meets the Throne of the TWSAIS on the unarguably 1-A Outside. Showing it's the same thing as Ginnungagap.

There is no evidence it was retconned, since the original storyline did not contradict multiversal scale. It did not explicitly establish it, but later scans do and there is absolutely nothing in the original run to contradict them.

 

[Kepekley23]

Why wouldn't we automatically assume that "outside of the multiverse" is "outside of Eternity" since the nordic worlds are part of the overall Marvel Multiverse ?

Funny thing is: it is directly shown to be outside of Eternity.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

1) No, nothing establishes it beyond your word and the bizarre sudden assumption that existing outside of a multiverse makes the realm 1-A

2) The Outside is 1-A but Ginnungagap isn't The Outside, it's simply in the Outside. So one is not the other.

3) Cool story bro. Now do you have scans for that too?

 

[Overlord775]

@Matt

Why wouldn't we automatically assume that "outside of the multiverse" is "outside of Eternity" since the nordic worlds are part of the Marvel Multiverse aka Eternity ?

 

[ParadoxIndifferent]

Loki meeting the Throne of the TWSAIS after the omniverse has been destroyed.

Let's see the amusing excuses flow.

 

[Luck100]

Loki meeting the Throne of the TWSAIS after the omniverse has been destroyed.
Let's see the amusing excuses flow.

They always invent other excuses.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Loki meeting the Throne of the TWSAIS after the omniverse has been destroyed.
Let's see the amusing excuses flow.

They always invent other excuses.

1. Stop with the insults and "witty" sarcastic remarks.

2. Again, this scan ONLY PROVES that Those Who Sit Above reside outside the Multiverse. Nothing more, nothing less. Existing in one place is not remotely evidence of being a tier or another. We stopped rating characters as Tier 2 for being from higher realms and dimensions a while ago. Unless you can show actual feats, these guys won't be made 1-A

 

[Luck100]

I'm not the guy who wrote:

"I also am not a fan of the "Internet Tough Guy" attitude put forth in the Pro-Upgrade posters."

And Thor transcended Yggdrasil too be in TWSAIS level.

 

[Kepekley23]

1) No, nothing establishes it beyond your word and the bizarre sudden assumption that existing outside of a multiverse makes the realm 1-A

Ginnungagap is the void before all creation.

Ginnungagap is shown as analogous to the Outside, an above-baseline 1-A realm.

> 2) The Outside is 1-A but Ginnungagap isn't The Outside, it's simply in the Outside. So one is not the other.

No, Ginnungagap is the Outside. This is basic Marvel Comics pantheon cosmology. Every mythological story is true at the same time, regardless of contradictions. Ginnungagap is simply the way the Norse Gods and Men view the void that predated all existence.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I'm not the guy who wrote:
"I also am not a fan of the "Internet Tough Guy" attitude put forth in the Pro-Upgrade posters."

And Thor transcended Yggdrasil too be in TWSAIS level.

All that the scans say is that he's able to see beyond Yggdrasil and the Cycle. Nothing else.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

@KEp

But that's directly contradictory with your saying that Ginnungagap / Mikaboshi / Nyx / Whatever are only pieces of Oblivion. Huh.

What is it, then?

 

[SomebodyData]

If there is a contradiction, we usually go with the low-end.

 

[Overlord775]

@Matt

why are you ignoring my question ? <-<

 

[Kepekley23]

> But that's directly contradictory with your saying that Ginnungagap / Mikaboshi / Nyx / Whatever are only pieces of Oblivion. Huh.

They are.

What is the contradiction?

 

[Kepekley23]

If there is a contradiction, we usually go with the low-end.

There are zero contradictions, unless one goes out of their way to attempt to perceive them, since the original Thor story doesn't establish a specific scale for Ginnungagap, and other stories from the same time were already establishing Ginnungagap as a multiversal void.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

The contradiction is that if The Outside is Oblivion's realm in its entirety, but then you simultaneously go and insist that all of these beings are only pieces of Oblivion, you are directly saying two different exclusionary things.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

"and other stories from the same time were already establishing Ginnungagap as a multiversal void"

Which ones? None of the scans given so far say this. Once again you are just making extraordinary claims without evidence.

 

[SomebodyData]

"No, Ginnungagap is the Outside. This is basic Marvel Comics pantheon cosmology. Every mythological story is true at the same time, regardless of contradictions. Ginnungagap is simply the way the Norse Gods and Men view the void that predated all existence."

You defended the point by using the cosmologies without regard to the contradictions. I'm just saying, that if there is a contradiction, we go with the low-end.

 

[Luck100]

@Matthew

And he banish the TWSAIS and was in the same void that they habit.

@Somebody

usually go with low end= when it's a Marvel comic

 

[SomebodyData]

When its any verse actually.

 

[Kepekley23]

And when did I ever claim the Outside was the entirety of Oblivion?

And why does this matter when the Ginnungagap shown in Al Ewing's Loki is portrayed on such a scale?

 

[Kepekley23]

"No, Ginnungagap is the Outside. This is basic Marvel Comics pantheon cosmology. Every mythological story is true at the same time, regardless of contradictions. Ginnungagap is simply the way the Norse Gods and Men view the void that predated all existence."

You defended the point by using the cosmologies without regard to the contradictions. I'm just saying, that if there is a contradiction, we go with the low-end.

I am perfectly aware of how the wiki works, and the idea is, in case of a contradiction, the newest information overrides the older scans.

And, most importantly, you misinterpreted what I meant. Marvel Comics does not operate by "everything is limited in scale" cosmology; whenever two mythological stories clash (for example; the Creator Gods of each myth), both of those stories are still true at the same time, regardless of the contradictions that may arise from them.

 

[Kepekley23]

"and other stories from the same time were already establishing Ginnungagap as a multiversal void"

Which ones? None of the scans given so far say this. Once again you are just making extraordinary claims without evidence.

"Outside all the realms, outside all realities"

How many times does this scan have to be posted before you stop claiming it does not exist?

 

[Hykuu]

Literally everyone else reading this thread realizing it won't ever reach a conclusion

I mean, seriously, I have no idea why people are still going with this lol, it literally goes from - debating about the outside scaling - going to another point - "well the outside one is the most important" - repeat

and no one actually reaching a mutual conclusion (which is basically not possible in this case), and no, I'm not trying to get this thread close because I disagree with the upgrade, wether or not the upgrade gets accepted doesn't matter much to me, but all of us seriously have much better things to do (or even better threads to participate in lol) then continue engaging in a debate which won't end

 

[SomebodyData]

I am perfectly aware of how the wiki works, and the idea is, in case of a contradiction, the newest information overrides the older scans.

And, most importantly, you misinterpreted what I meant. Marvel Comics does not operate by "everything is limited in scale" cosmology; whenever two mythological stories clash (for example; the Creator Gods of each myth), both of those stories are still true at the same time, regardless of the contradictions that may arise from them.

Kinda? We generally do low-end and newest, given this case there are not the same, I'd go with low-end.

Sounds like special treatment, given no other verse operates like that. However, if they're both true and contradictory, then wouldn't it make more sense to seperate them? Reaching for evidence from other stories sounds like, well reaching at that point.

 

[Kepekley23]

> Kinda? We generally do low-end and newest, given this case there are not the same, I'd go with low-end.

1. There are no contradictions.

2. The newest stories by Al Ewing are backed by the older stories around the same timeframe.

> Sounds like special treatment, given no other verse operates like that.

Literally every single expansive mythology verse operates on a "mythological contradictions are fake" system (American Gods, GoW, DC Comics, etc.). Even some verses without mythological gods, such as 40k. I am surprised that you have not heard of this cosmology.

> However, if they're both true and contradictory, then wouldn't it make more sense to seperate them?

That's exactly what we do.

> Reaching for evidence from other stories sounds like, well reaching at that point.

They're the exact same characters, within the same mythological setting. There is absolutely no reason to ignore every story and go by the absolute lowest interpretation possible just because we can.

 

[SomebodyData]

Again, pointing out that we don't usually take the high-end in contradictory stuff, never said there was a contradiction.


I'd have to check on that later, but contradictions are contradictions. I know a few verses with expasive mythos or several creation stories but there usually has to be consistency to be rated X tier.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

"Outside all the realms, outside all realities"

How many times does this scan have to be posted before you stop claiming it does not exist?

Apparently a lot more because this scan doesn't say that Ginnungagap is a void which encompasses the multiverse, only that it is outside the multiverse. There's a key difference there.

 

[Kepekley23]

Apparently a lot more because this scan doesn't say that Ginnungagap is a void which encompasses the multiverse, only that it is outside the multiverse. There's a key difference there.

Ginnungagap being the void before existence, outside the multiverse is literally the point here; because we have always treated primordial voids that exist beyond High 1-B/Low 1-A dimensional scales as 1-A, and the new Tiering System specifically supports such an interpretation.

 

[Luck100]

Kinda? We generally do low-end and newest, given this case there are not the same, I'd go with low-end.

Sounds like special treatment, given no other verse operates like that. However, if they're both true and contradictory, then wouldn't it make more sense to seperate them? Reaching for evidence from other stories sounds like, well reaching at that point.

Didn't DC get a backwards upgrade with more than 30 years of diference between comics from 2-A to 1-A for the anti monitor ?

 

[Kepekley23]

Again, pointing out that we don't usually take the high-end in contradictory stuff, never said there was a contradiction.


I'd have to check on that later, but contradictions are contradictions. I know a few verses with expasive mythos or several creation stories but there usually has to be consistency to be rated X tier.

Rune King Thor only appeared in a single story.

The TWSAIS have appeared in half a dozen or so storylines, and very few of them focuse on their nature. The ones that do are the ones we're listing for evidence.

You already have the consistency you need in this scenario.

 

[Hykuu]

yoyooyoyo omg the dimension of manifestations is oblviiann confirmed 100% marvel approved

Also, RKT appeared and started across 5 issues, TWSAIS appeared in like 4 issues, wdym?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

And yet, no evidence that Ginnungagap encompasses the entire multiverse has been presented. Strange.

 

[Kepekley23]

And yet, no evidence that Ginnungagap encompasses the entire multiverse has been presented. Strange.

Are the Beyonders 2-A in your view?

 

[Hykuu]

what sorta non sequitur ƒÿ¡ I'm done with this thread fr this time

 

[Kepekley23]

It is a legitimate question.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

And yet, no evidence that Ginnungagap encompasses the entire multiverse has been presented. Strange.

Are the Beyonders 2-A in your view?

I'm convinced you're trolling at this point.

 

[Kepekley23]

Are the Beyonders 2-A in your view?

I'm convinced you're trolling at this point.

I am asking a legitimate question; what tier do you believe the Beyonders are? Stop with the accusations and keep the debate civil, please.