Minor God of War Removal

[CloverDragon03]

Realistically I shouldn't be risking my sanity commenting here again, but here I am... We've never allowed such a small difference to pass a revision. Kindly stop trying to force a conclusion, thanks. Also the attitude's reaching an all-time high of unreasonable passive-aggression so let's fix that too. Cool? Cool. Back to my corner away from this thread I go.

 

[Deagonx]

We've never allowed such a small difference to pass a revision. Kindly stop trying to force a conclusion, thanks.

Yes we have. We tend to ask for a larger difference, but that's not an actual rule and no one is "forcing a conclusion" by saying that the majority vote should be enacted.

In any case, both groups are proposing a change. Both groups agree the existing justification and scan needs to be completely rewritten as it currently says: "The Sisters can control the Threads of Fate to even modify the physiological appearance of a living being, like deciding the position of a mortal's legs and feet[85])"

The idea that the thread would "not pass" despite both groups wanting to remove this is not sensible. More people have supported removing it completely than replacing it with a new yet-unwritten justification, but none support keeping it. I see no logical reason why the smaller vote would win out here in such a situation.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Not saying either side would "win out", just that a strong enough decision on what to do with the ability (as removing that specific justification has been agreed) has definitely not been reached. No one's "winning out" here, the thread would just keep going until a more decisive conclusion is reached.

Yes, I would call it "forcing a conclusion." You're free to disagree, but I'd rather not return to this thread again. Thanks.

 

[omegabronic]

Discussion Rules

VS Battles Wiki is a site where the members attempt to index the statistics of characters across different fictional franchises. These efforts lead to much discussion about certain feats, statements and calculations regarding their validity, reliability, etc. However, certain topics keep popping...

vsbattles.fandom.com

If a disagreement arises between staff members during the evaluation of a content revision thread, it is important to seek the input and guidance of additional staff members in order to reach a fair and unbiased decision. This may involve seeking the opinion of higher-ranked staff members, or consulting with staff members who possess specific expertise or knowledge related to the revision in question. The final decision on the approval of a content revision should be based on a thorough and unbiased evaluation of the suggested changes and their impact on a verse.

Ultimately, the final decision regarding the approval of a content revision should be based on a thorough and unbiased evaluation of the suggested changes and their impact on each verse, rather than on the rank or status of the staff members involved.

Although the evaluation of each staff member carries equal weight, the final decision regarding the approval of a content revision may be influenced by other factors such as the expertise and knowledge of the staff members involved, the complexity and controversy of the revision, and the popularity or prominence of the affected series verse.

to me at least, in such situations where such a disagreement between staff arrives, rather than counting the votes for the smallest differences, the rules say for us to analyse the situation further, look out for more staff, reach out for staff specialized in said topic, etc. Nowhere in our rules does it say that when staff disagree to such an extent as this thread that we can determine the approval purely on the smallest difference in vote numbers for either side, so still, i find the notion that 1 vote difference is enough to decide an approval at such a controversial verse as GoW, with a discussion going on from 10 pages, to be a little weird

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I fucking knew this would happen, jfc

Clover, we are not forcing a conclusion. The conclusion is that the ability is wrong and should be removed. That's it. There is no rule on the site saying a majority of two or more votes must be achieved for a thread to pass.

Discussion Rules

VS Battles Wiki is a site where the members attempt to index the statistics of characters across different fictional franchises. These efforts lead to much discussion about certain feats, statements and calculations regarding their validity, reliability, etc. However, certain topics keep popping...

vsbattles.fandom.com

to me at least, in such situations where such a disagreement between staff arrives, rather than counting the votes for the smallest differences, the rules say for us to analyse the situation further, look out for more staff, reach out for staff specialized in said topic, etc. Nowhere in our rules does it say that when staff disagree to such an extent as this thread that we can determine the approval purely on the smallest difference in vote numbers for either side, so still, i find the notion that 1 vote difference is enough to decide an approval at such a controversial verse as GoW, with a discussion going on from 10 pages, to be a little weird

We have already been doing this for the entire thread. No less than sixteen different staff members with evaluation rights have given their opinion here. That's more input than like 99% of threads get, it is absurd to ask us to get even more input at this point.

Anyways, I do have permission to remove the abilities once the grace period ends, so we can all collectively shut up now.

 

[Deagonx]

This thread is not a venue for discussing voting policies. If any of you feel that some kind of rule should be established to require a certain number of votes above and beyond the disagreeing amount in order for a thread to pass, that should be discussed in a separate staff discussion thread, not here.

 

[omegabronic]

I fucking knew this would happen, jfc

Clover, we are not forcing a conclusion. The conclusion is that the ability is wrong and should be removed. That's it. There is no rule on the site saying a majority of two or more votes must be achieved for a thread to pass.


We have already been doing this for the entire thread. No less than sixteen different staff members with evaluation rights have given their opinion here. That's more input than like 99% of threads get, it is absurd to ask us to get even more input at this point.

Anyways, I do have permission to remove the abilities once the grace period ends, so we can all collectively shut up now.

we also have no rule saying that a 1 vote difference is enough, so a little weird assuming that it is while the oposite can't be assumed a thread on that should be made tbh but ok, i will hop out now, bu bye

 

[AbaddonTheDisappointment]

Was asked to reeval and I think the twin thing and him getting crippled would be valid for bio manip

 

[Theglassman12]

@Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara no you don’t have the rights if you don’t have a noticeable difference in staff votes. Doesn’t matter if we have a lot of staff input, if we don’t have a 3 vote difference we ask for more input, simple as that. This being a lot more staff input than a normal CRT doesn’t change that, hell the fact that it’s this much votes in the first place means we need more staff input to evaluate this in the first place.

 

[KLOL506]

Current tally-

Agree: Deagonx, Damage3245, LordGriffin1000, Mr._Bambu, DarkGrath, CrimsonStarFallen, Sir_Ovens, Maverick_Zero_X,

Disagree: Planck69, Theglassman12, Emirp sumitpo, DarkDragonMedeus, Elizhaa, DemonGodMitchAubin, KingTempest, AbaddontheDisappointment,

Neutral:

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

@Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara no you don’t have the rights if you don’t have a noticeable difference in staff votes. Doesn’t matter if we have a lot of staff input, if we don’t have a 3 vote difference we ask for more input, simple as that. This being a lot more staff input than a normal CRT doesn’t change that, hell the fact that it’s this much votes in the first place means we need more staff input to evaluate this in the first place.

We have never required a 3 vote difference. Besides, you and I both remember when you took my side with an identical issue in regards to MGK downgrades a while back; We only had a one vote lead, and you gave me permission to apply the edits. Don't try to go back on that now that it's being used on a verse you like more.

It's tied rn anyways, so who gives a shit lol
(Ultima agrees off site but getting him to comment on a thread is like pulling teeth, rip)

 

[Quibster]

I don’t think that these the scans are justification enough for an outright Bio Manipulation rating— and the Twins scan justification feels underwhelmingly trivial and a massive extrapolation, to what is effectively going to be a non-combat applicable downgrade. Why not just label this as a Fate Manipulation justification instead?

Please, can someone tell me why being crippled (this is one of the reasons the rating is being currently supported) would equate to Bio Manipulation, and where I’m supposed to infer from the text that this is what’s at play? This doesn’t make any literate sense— and thus far I’ve only been given a definition of what the word ‘crippled’, which is just a massive nothing burger to support WHERE THE BIO MANIP IS.

And for the love of god please drop the votes discourse. It’s just going to result in a back-and-forth that will never be dropped. It’s okay to be passionate about this subject but please remain civil.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

For the record, the twins scan is already being used to justify life manipulation. So the GoW supporters need to decide if it's life manipulation, or biological manipulation (I believe it's the former, personally). Also, merely "crippling" someone in a vague manner does not equate to biological manipulation. This can result from injury, sickness, accidents, literally anything that could induce a state of physical damage. Should I get bio hax for crippling someone by breaking their legs with a baseball bat?

 

[RH0904]

why not both?

 

[KLOL506]

For the record, the twins scan is already being used to justify life manipulation. So the GoW supporters need to decide if it's life manipulation, or biological manipulation (I believe it's the former, personally).

Why can't it be both?

Also, merely "crippling" someone in a vague manner does not equate to biological manipulation. This can result from injury, sickness, accidents, literally anything that could induce a state of physical damage. Should I get bio hax for crippling someone by breaking their legs with a baseball bat?

We already discussed this in the prior pages, but if that still doesn't convince you:

1. The Sisters already tried using the various perils of the Island of Creation, including those elaborate traps, which would include accidents, the bog and other threats of bodily harm like Euryale. NONE WORKED.

2. When the scene in Chapter 46 regarding the crippling thing happens, Kratos is literally at their doorstep, knocking violently on their entrance. The Sisters are malding furiously about why none of the outside influence worked and are desperate about avoiding their impending doom, so they proceed to try and kill him by plucking his thread then and there (Which also fails). There are no envinronmental hazards in the big bird-like Temple that they reside in at this point where the boss fight would happen with them, so yeah, there you go.

 

[Quibster]

1. The Sisters already tried using the various perils of the Island of Creation, including those elaborate traps, which would include accidents, the bog and other threats of bodily harm like Euryale. NONE WORKED.

2. When the scene in Chapter 46 happens, Kratos is literally at their doorstep. The Sisters are malding furiously about why none of the outside influence worked and are desperate about avoiding their impending doom, so they proceed to kill him by plucking his thread then and there (Which also fails). There are no envinronmental hazards in the big bird-like Temple that they reside in at this point, so yeah, there you go.

Are you reasoning that, because of these things, that this one instance of a King being crippled and losing his legs would possibly be Bio Manipulation? I really don't know how any of these are related beyond this potential point. Can you be more precise or clarify?

 

[KLOL506]

Are you reasoning that, because of these things, that this one instance of a King being crippled and losing his legs would possibly be Bio Manipulation? I really don't know how any of these are related beyond this potential point. Can you be more precise?

We're not using the Young King scan anymore bruv. That scan is as good as irrelevant.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

2. When the scene in Chapter 46 regarding the crippling thing happens, Kratos is literally at their doorstep. The Sisters are malding furiously about why none of the outside influence worked and are desperate about avoiding their impending doom, so they proceed to kill him by plucking his thread then and there (Which also fails). There are no envinronmental hazards in the big bird-like Temple that they reside in at this point, so yeah, there you go.

This is wrong, btw, Kratos is explicitly crippled and brought to his knees by his thread being tampered with. This would just be an extension of how cutting a person's thread kills them, though Kratos doesn't die (good for him), so it's not really bio hax, either.

I think you're taking the word "cripple" at its most literal and not really acknowledging that it's a vague term that can describe any number of ways in which a person can be injured, forced to stop, or otherwise rendered impotent.

 

[Robespierre_Isidore]

(this didn't need to be 9 fucking pages long btw)

minor god of war revision
notable bickering back and forth on content

We are watching the Rick and Morty "quick 20 min adventure" meme in real time.
Seems fitting though when you think about the original GoW trilogy.


---

I think my previous point, still seen most apt, fell deafly on the ears of those against the removal.

Let me breathe new life into it:

If I go ahead and prove control over X's existence using X's fate, to the point of controlling everything from what X interacts with and what X does, I can do anything I want with X. This would include having X make twins, this would include having X lose its legs, and this would include X procreating with something it should normally not be able to for I control every atom, point, vector, and blasted piece of existence X would ever have. This IS NOT BIOLOGICAL MANIPULATION; THIS IS BEING A USER OF FATE MANIPULATION ON A HIGH ENOUGH LEVEL.

These are logical ramifications of a power taken to a high enough level to cover other powers/abilities by the original power. This does not magically grant them new powers, rather it is due to the extension of 1 power that can hold dominion on the power in question.

If I control atomic movement in the entirety of the cosmos, do I have black hole manipulation cause I let a star go supernova and collapse?
If I control fire and can melt away mountains do I suddenly have Earth Manipulation cause I smelted them?
If I write out a formula A^2+B^2=C^2 do I have tool usage or control over mathematics?

This goes in many obvious directions when it comes to the outcome of "do I have W cause of R", but it does grant the ability of W, it is through R we force the W to change.

This exact 'power stretching' or 'hax overlap' occurs because people are too swiftly saying "it does the W ergo it must be because they have the manipulation of the W" when we regularly have context for certain characters that says "No, they have R at such a scale they can affect W by proxy of R".

 

[KLOL506]

This is wrong, btw, Kratos is explicitly crippled and brought to his knees by his thread being tampered with. This would just be an extension of how cutting a person's thread kills them, though Kratos doesn't die (good for him), so it's not really bio hax, either.

This is because he has control over his own thread now. The Sisters in that scan could literally no longer interact with his Thread of Fate. Either way, not the point, the point is that interacting with the threads will severely harm/kill the mortals that the threads represent.

Also he overcomes the pain and immediately fights round 2 with Zeus, so IDK what point you're trying to make.

I think you're taking the word "cripple" at its most literal and not really acknowledging that it's a vague term that can describe any number of ways in which a person can be injured, forced to stop, or otherwise rendered impotent.

I think it's pretty straightforward of an assumption to take here given everything that goes on in the scene.

But honestly, if you still disagree, don't think there's much I can do to help. We've sung this song back and forth too many times, so it's best to just leave it up to staff at this rate.

 

[Wokistan]

Let's examine what the leg statement is for a minute. They say they led a guy to a violent fate and as such caused him to live his life without legs. This is a character who we know causes wars and conflicts through control of fate, they've explicitly said they're bringing the guy to a violent fate, and people get dismembered in wars all the time. And yet people are trying to say that the option requiring the least assumptions with what we know about the character is that they have just teleported his legs away or something rather than doing the same thing we know they already do?

We can even remove the context of it being fate and inventing biological manipulation as the baseline assumption is still weird. This reduces the statement to "She caused him to live the rest of his life without legs." If I was told someone did this without any context, I would assume that she cut them off or otherwise badly damaged them rather than magic biology powers out of nowhere. A simple amputation is just way less of a leap than targeted leg deletion. People trying to support the bio manip stuff have been mentioning the idea of Occam's razor throughout the thread, but rather than understanding what that means and following it they've turned it into a buzzword to be waved around as an argument in itself. Pretty odd.

As for the twins thing, I'm more ambivalent. Twins are going to happen from a woman ovulating two eggs at once or a fertilized egg splitting, but this is also something that happens essentially at random chance. If you control all of fate you can do any number of things to eventually get a twin, but at least this time the interpretation of direct biological intervention isn't really silly since that is just the default way such a process happens. If you got bio manip off this it would be really inconsequential and specific bio manip and as such still shouldn't be used for resistances, but I guess you could if you just like the way the words look or something.

 

[KLOL506]

Let's examine what the leg statement is for a minute. They say they led a guy to a violent fate and as such caused him to live his life without legs. This is a character who we know causes wars and conflicts through control of fate, they've explicitly said they're bringing the guy to a violent fate, and people get dismembered in wars all the time. And yet people are trying to say that the option requiring the least assumptions with what we know about the character is that they have just teleported his legs away or something rather than doing the same thing we know they already do?

We can even remove the context of it being fate and inventing biological manipulation as the baseline assumption is still weird. This reduces the statement to "She caused him to live the rest of his life without legs." If I was told someone did this without any context, I would assume that she cut them off or otherwise badly damaged them rather than magic biology powers out of nowhere. A simple amputation is just way less of a leap than targeted leg deletion. People trying to support the bio manip stuff have been mentioning the idea of Occam's razor throughout the thread, but rather than understanding what that means and following it they've turned it into a buzzword to be waved around as an argument in itself. Pretty odd.

We aren't using that statement anymore.

As for the twins thing, I'm more ambivalent. Twins are going to happen from a woman ovulating two eggs at once or a fertilized egg splitting, but this is also something that happens essentially at random chance. If you control all of fate you can do any number of things to eventually get a twin, but at least this time the interpretation of direct biological intervention isn't really silly since that is just the default way such a process happens. If you got bio manip off this it would be really inconsequential and specific bio manip and as such still shouldn't be used for resistances, but I guess you could if you just like the way the words look or something.

We're just using the twins statement, the animal+mortal offspring statement and the Kratos crippling statement. That's it.

 

[Firestorm808]

Not seeing any bio manip here.

 

[Deagonx]

This is the current tally:

Agree: Deagonx, Damage3245, LordGriffin1000, Mr._Bambu, DarkGrath, CrimsonStarFallen, Sir_Ovens, Maverick_Zero_X, Wokistan, Firestorm808

Disagree: Planck69, Theglassman12, Emirp sumitpo, DarkDragonMedeus, Elizhaa, DemonGodMitchAubin, KingTempest, AbaddontheDisappointment

 

[KLOL506]

Not seeing any bio manip here.

We're not using the Young King Statement anymore.

We are using the Twins statement and the Animal+Mortal Offspring statement. And the Kratos crippling statement.

 

[Quibster]

We're not using the Young King scan anymore bruv. That scan is as good as irrelevant.

We aren't using that statement anymore.


We're just using the twins statement, the animal+mortal offspring statement and the Kratos crippling statement. That's it.

Alright then, moving on. (Saved me the trouble of skimming through 10 pages. so thanks lol)

These are logical ramifications of a power taken to a high enough level to cover other powers/abilities by the original power. This does not magically grant them new powers, rather it is due to the extension of 1 power that can hold dominion on the power in question.

This. This right here.

It would be more valid to throw this scan under an ability that covers this under an umbrella of other abilities ( RW, Life Manip, Fate Manip) rather than label it as some hard Biological Manip.

 

[KLOL506]

@Wokistan @Firestorm808 What do you think of the following scans (The one involving twins, animal+mortal offspring and Kratos crippling scene) that we're proposing to replace the current ones to keep Bio Manip?

 

[DarkGrath]

I would like to make (hopefully) a final post about this matter.

I acknowledged in a previous post, roughly 11 hours ago now, that conduct on this thread was becoming increasingly problematic, and that it is in all of our best interests that this issue is nipped in the bud and that further antagonistic comments are avoided. I am, at least, satisfied that the past few replies have relatively toned down these issues and are becoming more civil. Prior to that, however, I believe this issue had only gotten worse in the hours since my original comment, and I am concerned that this will not simply disappear if the discussion picks up again around the main members who have been involved in the thread thus far. If this debate is sincerely going to be extended further than this, at least do it properly. If you are tempted to make demeaning comments towards your fellow users and staff members, please remove yourself from the situation until the temptation goes away. There are reasonable expectations about these things.

And regarding the voting matter - traditionally, it has been acknowledged in cases of close votes that administrator votes have higher weight than discussion moderator votes, and generally should be used for tie-breakers. In this situation, there is both a majority vote for one side (10-8), and a substantially higher portion of votes for the majority side are administrators over discussion moderators (8 to 2 on the agree side; 2 to 6 on the disagree side). Going by this precedent, if no more decisive vote sway could be reached, we would usually consider the agreed upon conclusion to rest on the small majority. I say all of this with 'usually' and 'traditionally' interjections because, while it has been a precedent, I consider it a stupid and disrespectful precedent to act as though an administrator's opinion is innately more rational and valuable than a moderator's opinion, and anyone who has seen past threads where this has been brought up may know I have never actually endorsed this precedent in any situation where this general principle has been applied. All I will say is that, if we cannot reach a more decisive conclusion, this is how we've usually framed it in the past for the sake of efficiency.

 

[Firestorm808]

We're not using the Young King Statement anymore.

We are using the Twins statement and the Animal+Mortal Offspring statement. And the Kratos crippling statement.

I still don't see bio manip here, just fate manip.

 

[chosen]

Okay so Making clear, atm imma be leaning to fuji and deagonx side, so tje sisters losing bio manip doesn't really bother me.

Tho a friend was curios wouldn't a revaluation with the staff and some final words happen? Cuz new arguments appeared after votes were casted on both sides. Like cripple argument or deagonx (from my undestanding) idea that even if bio manip valid based on twinsw it's clotho only etc. Grace was passed to be noted. (Incase grace being passed Would mean no revalution in this situation)

 

[Deagonx]

Tho a friend was curios wouldn't a revaluation with the staff and some final words happen? Cuz new arguments appeared after votes were casted on both sides

Not really needed or practical here. The main arguments were rejected, new ideas for a replacement scan on Page 8 don't warrant that sort of thing.

In any case, the waiting period has passed and the majority have voted to remove the ability. I'll be closing this now, and Fuji is free to apply the changes and remove Biological Manipulation/Resistances on the mentioned pages. If any of the pages need to be unlocked, ask in the All-Purpose Request Thread.