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Missiles vs Rocket in Fiction (Reaction Speed Rant)

Hop_Hoppington-Hoppenhiemer

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VS Battles
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Oftentimes in fiction, feats of outrunning or dodging "missiles" tend to grant many fictional characters vastly absurd speeds (Hypersonic). The reason is, as is a common mistake among users, most missile speeds are taken from ICBMs and the like. ICMBs in the Cold War here in real life travel at 5000 m/s or greater. Those are Hypersonic.

Side note: The reason why they moved at that speed was so they could not be intercepted by another country once fired, and accuracy was not too important, as the impact would most certainly get the job done. Not to mention a singular ICBM wouldn't be fired by itself. It would be a waste and of course, while harder to detect, if spotted, logically a force would try to make it even harder for their enemy and launch 30 of them all over the place instead of 1.

Most "missiles" in fiction (from the ones Tracer or Quote dodge, to countless others) are not ICBMs. They are fired by an enemy (mech), vehicle, or weapon (a launcher), not like the Hypersonic, silo-based ones in reality. Just like with real lightning vs magical eletricity.

Creators of a fictional verse, especially video games, often misuse the word "missile" in their vocabulary. An author or an entry level editor at a video game studio doesn't care for using the most technical terminology, especially as far as indexing a character is concerned.

Due to this mistake, whether by translation error (many anime and manga series, as well as Cave Story , where Quote is from, an indie game from Japansese creator Pixel) or a user's confusion, reaction/combat speeds and feats are often greatly taken out of context. So we are left to determine what the hell they are trying to tell us is being fired or launched. Is it an ICBM? Doubt it, unless it's some Cold War-Modern Day era verse. Or was it an RPG-7 rocket? Was it some form of fictional, heat-seeking missile, that turns in multiple directions on the fly, like those in Star Wars? However it was done, we've overlooked it by mistake.

In conclusion, not all rocket projected explosives travel anywhere near these speeds, and in most fictional verses, when a character dodges a "missile", the term that should be used for handheld weapons is "rocket propelled grenade" or RPG for short. An RPG-7 or other ballistic explosive (like the M72 LAW) should be the standard thing for handheld rockets, if we want to avoid calc stacking (calcing a rocket, then use that for calcing a reaction speed, etc) using real life examples such as those would be ideal, in my opinion. For vehicles we should use known similar types of projectiles. If it's more like a tank, maybe just use the Abrams, or other military use explosive.
 
Support that.

Many small missiles/rockets are just subsonic, like bazooka stuff.

Things like realistic air to air missles are just Supersonic+
 
DT is right on the AAM Missiles being Supersonic+ in speed. Though i seem to stumble upon one that was listed on Wikipedia as Mach 6. But for the most part aside that one, some of the ones i saw there are Supersonic+ by our scale (about Mach 2.5 at the least to about Mach 4-ish).

I never get to see the speed of stuff like missiles/rockets being shot from a bazooka or RPG but subsonic-ish is about right.

Anyways i think this makes somewhat sense...
 
Thank you guys.

We should apply proper speeds to profiles based on what I said here. Clarifying this common mistake is very important for accuracy.
 
The problem with that, Soy, is the number of profiles that have speed based on from dodging "missiles/rockets". There's probably loads of them that we have to look at that has this problem if you think about it...
 
Work load is not a concern for myself. I can do almost all the video game ones alone. It would be an easy task all things considered. Look at the profile's speed, discern whether or not it was cause by "missile dodging", and go from there. Not all profiles need to be touched upon for this.

Profiles like Tracer are safe anyways. She scaled to another character, so downgrading her would be moot in the first place.

Quote we still have to discuss. I made a revision thread a while back on him, and his whole verse scales to him, being the main character.
 
That is a point then, i guess.

Tracer for sure is already scaled to some others so yeah, she doesn't need to be downgraded if at all.

Alright.
 
Are it even that many? Personally I haven't seen many profiles based on this.

Well, generally just starting somewhere is fine either way.

Just comment on the calcs questioning wether the rocket speed are correct and make revision threads for characters based on that without calcs.

It isn't that necessary to do all at once.


Before doing that I would give this thread 24 hours of time though, to get more opinions/give everyone a chance to comment on this. Maybe discussing which standards should be used to determine missle speed first would also be a good idea. Like small handheld missles and gun/rocket launcher fired missles probably should be assumed to be 80-125 m/s (bazooka velocity to RPG7 velocity)

Things fired from airplanes likely more in the Supersonic+ range (mach 2.5-3 seems to be appropiate here)

And for intercontinental missles 4000 m/s for boost phase and 7000 m/s for re-entry seem fine.
 
I agree with this change, even though as CrossverseCrisis said it will be a fair bit of work...

Anyways, after a quick google search I have a few speeds we could maybe work with.

As far as I know the most common shoulder-fired missile launcher (which we could use as the standard) is the RPG-7 which has has a top speed of 295 m/s putting it in our Subsonic+ range.

In terms of Cruise Missiles and AAMs (air-to-air missiles), the most common ones range from Mach 2.5 - Mach 6 which means that (on average) they are Supersonic+.

A few modern SAMs (surface-to-air missiles) are hypersonic but I dont think there are that many feats of people dodging those.

edit: looks like DontTalk beat me to it :p
 
@DT: Yeah those seem pretty reasonable to have. It's just of matter of going through them and all so....mmm.

Anyways i agree on wanting a whole day before we do something about this...
 
FinalBattleX01 said:
I agree with this change, even though as CrossverseCrisis said it will be a fair bit of work...
Anyways, after a quick google search I have a few speeds we could maybe work with.

As far as I know the most common shoulder-fired missile launcher (which we could use as the standard) is the RPG-7 which has has a top speed of 295 m/s putting it in our Subsonic+ range.

In terms of Cruise Missiles and AAMs (air-to-air missiles), the most common ones range from Mach 2.5 - Mach 6 which means that (on average) they are Supersonic+.

A few modern SAMs (surface-to-air missiles) are hypersonic but I dont think there are that many feats of people dodging those.

edit: looks like DontTalk beat me to it :p
I feel like these are after accelerating for a while though, no?
 
Yeah, that's top speed, after acceleration. But most achieve this in a short period of time, as they are meant to be that fast before hitting their respective targets. You would nuke your next door neighbor like you would fire an RPG at the guy right in front of you.
 
@LordXcano

Well yes, but I feel like most feats of missile dodging will be from a considerable distance though no? Besides, they reach top speed pretty fast (especially AAMs and SAMs).

But I will admit that there are a few discrepancies between initial speeds and top speeds.

e.g The RPG travels the first ten meters at 115m/s thanks to the gunpowder booster charge, but as soon as the rocket ignites it quickly rises to its aforementioned top speed.

We would have to examine each case specifically to see the true speed.
 
I agree with the op.

Still... we had a problem with this? I never really noticed, this is most surprising since I may have made the problem when I made the Cruise Missile profile, maybe I should have added a note. "Not all missiles are at this speed" or something...
 
@SD: The fact that SoyHop made this seems evident for sure. Hell even DT supports this if that counts for anything.

I think so too on the missile page you made, man. You did include the ones that can go at Hypersonic speed. Then again, that just depends weather or not we should include missiles/rockets that go at Hypersonic speeds. Like i said earlier here, i found one that can go at Mach 6, or Hypersonic by our speed scale.
 
I agree with DontTalk that new standards should be agreed upon before anything is changed. And I would appreciate if an official calculation page is written afterwards.

Also, making this an immediate, rather than gradual, project, does not seem realistic, given that somebody would have to skim through thousands of profiles to look for examples.
 
Antvasima does have a point on that, really. Even if there's not a lot of profiles that have feats that use this, the fact that there's so many of them at this point means that we have to skim through them carefully and see weather they have them or not and such...
 
Oh THAT one....alrighty. Thanks.

But still, we'd have to skim through who knows how many of them even with this feature.

Aside that, it seems that we'll be pretty much settled with this for the most part. Just gotta have an official calc page regarding about dodging and reacting to missiles and i think we're good to go on that. Besides the having to look at other profiles that have this "issue", i mean...
 
I don't know if the general wiki search function will be updated, just that I have been told that there will be one for the new forum.
 
Well, you can try to do it if you wish, but it would likely constitute an extreme amount of work trying to find the pages, as only a few likely have the exact search term "missile" in them, and I think that there have been different inaccurate speed estimations for missiles, and similar projectiles, than just Hypersonic.

I do, however, support a new calculation/regulation page for this, so people can gradually make adjustments as they notice the errors.
 
HIT IT said:
An RPG only reaches Subsonic+ after 10 m when the rocket motor kicks i
Who's gonna fire a rocket closer than 10m? lol

Unless they're suicidal, or like Room level they'll most likely die or aim dodge it.
 
I didn't even know this was a problem, to be honest.

Yeah, I've never heard of an RPG-style rocket moving faster than a bullet from a traditional firearm. I'll keep an eye out for profiles that cite this as a feat.
 
I would still very much appreciate if somebody from the calculation group (or othervise, as long as the person in question knows what he or she is doing) could write an instruction page for reacting to rockets and missiles.
 
"Rocket & Missile Dodging Feats" seems like an okay title.
 
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