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Monika vs Lily
- Thread starter Celestial_Pegasus
- Start date
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- Thread starter
- #3
Well she doesn't have any information to erase, she is nothingness, which in Steampunck is a lack of data/information.
As for plot eh? She can come back from being erased by Edison, which far lesser people, even his own creations such as Messengers erase things conceptually(soon to be informational too, just haven't gotten to it).
Lily is kinda different from regular Underground Resident's, but at the same time the regular ones have statements about being tales/stories too, just like Lily is a story, also haven't gotten around to that either, but would just be NPI for erasing them I think.
Plot manipulation isn't really a thing in Steampunck, again unless we getting into Edison stuff about him manipulating and perceiving the Residents as his sad little stories?
Anyway ignoring all that to kill Lily who is not only a Cracking Being, thus made of Cracking, you also have to kill A, so it's a 2 on 1 fight, as A is always with her, the 2 are linked, even share senses, even if you do all that, and even erase her to even more nonexistence, even more nonexistent memories bring her backs....
As for plot eh? She can come back from being erased by Edison, which far lesser people, even his own creations such as Messengers erase things conceptually(soon to be informational too, just haven't gotten to it).
Lily is kinda different from regular Underground Resident's, but at the same time the regular ones have statements about being tales/stories too, just like Lily is a story, also haven't gotten around to that either, but would just be NPI for erasing them I think.
Plot manipulation isn't really a thing in Steampunck, again unless we getting into Edison stuff about him manipulating and perceiving the Residents as his sad little stories?
Anyway ignoring all that to kill Lily who is not only a Cracking Being, thus made of Cracking, you also have to kill A, so it's a 2 on 1 fight, as A is always with her, the 2 are linked, even share senses, even if you do all that, and even erase her to even more nonexistence, even more nonexistent memories bring her backs....
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golden gun will bypass the plot bs because its 5-D
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Plot and information in Doki is deeper than concept. Since the plot contains said information and concepts.
Being erased from the plot seems like a higher bar than what she has shown to come back from. Since that includes concept, information, temporal history, etc.
The plot technically contains void beings such as Monika when she was erased as well. And while in that state, she was then able to erase and recreate the entire game including herself. So, I don't think NEP is a problem.
Being erased from the plot seems like a higher bar than what she has shown to come back from. Since that includes concept, information, temporal history, etc.
The plot technically contains void beings such as Monika when she was erased as well. And while in that state, she was then able to erase and recreate the entire game including herself. So, I don't think NEP is a problem.
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What makes Lily's NEP better? They both have type 1 but Monika has more aspects.
TheGreatJedi13
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Monika's plot seems heavily tied to information Type 2
also, is the protagonist like the guy diving into the simulation?
her deleting and making characters unrecognizable by the game is simply kernel level manipulation of the game that not even the system detects it as programs to execute etc since it was still able to parsed some things but not the entirety. that's like reading the exe file as Mac user
also, is the protagonist like the guy diving into the simulation?
her deleting and making characters unrecognizable by the game is simply kernel level manipulation of the game that not even the system detects it as programs to execute etc since it was still able to parsed some things but not the entirety. that's like reading the exe file as Mac user
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NGL I don't understand what you are trying to even say here. Sorry.
TheGreatJedi13
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when i checked the scans about her plot it all dumbs down to just information type 2. So the plot does not supersede info type 2 but rather the info or the game info supersedes it
so if we are to believe lily has no info then it will not work even if it is also plot manipulation. the same way a character can resist the effect of an ability because a character resist the effect but not the cause
Contextwise between their abilities.
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I'll throw my hat tot the ring for a bit.
Due to Lily's nature and ability to use cracking, she can likely come back from what Monika throws at her except for plot likely as her high-godly doesn't cover narrative. But Lily would likely use the gun and gold ability which could screw Monika especially since the golden gun shot and injured Edison till his wound still remained in the side stories. R̶e̶m̶i̶n̶d̶s̶ ̶m̶e̶ ̶w̶e̶ ̶m̶i̶g̶h̶t̶ ̶n̶e̶e̶d̶ ̶r̶e̶g̶e̶n̶ ̶n̶e̶g̶g̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶w̶i̶t̶h̶ ̶g̶o̶l̶d̶e̶n̶ ̶g̶u̶n̶ ̶f̶o̶r̶ ̶L̶i̶l̶y̶ ̶l̶o̶l̶z̶
Idk but it may depend. If Monika realizes nothing works then she might be able to eliminate lily first but Lily could draw her gun and quite literally screw Monika first with it.
Due to Lily's nature and ability to use cracking, she can likely come back from what Monika throws at her except for plot likely as her high-godly doesn't cover narrative. But Lily would likely use the gun and gold ability which could screw Monika especially since the golden gun shot and injured Edison till his wound still remained in the side stories. R̶e̶m̶i̶n̶d̶s̶ ̶m̶e̶ ̶w̶e̶ ̶m̶i̶g̶h̶t̶ ̶n̶e̶e̶d̶ ̶r̶e̶g̶e̶n̶ ̶n̶e̶g̶g̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶w̶i̶t̶h̶ ̶g̶o̶l̶d̶e̶n̶ ̶g̶u̶n̶ ̶f̶o̶r̶ ̶L̶i̶l̶y̶ ̶l̶o̶l̶z̶
Idk but it may depend. If Monika realizes nothing works then she might be able to eliminate lily first but Lily could draw her gun and quite literally screw Monika first with it.
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- Thread starter
- #12
Thinking about it, only thing we have seen Post-Sona Lily do when faced with a threat is immediately go witch form and attack with Howler.
Pretty sure speed equalize doesn't extend to amps, so that's normal human to FTL. Howler is at least a type 1 concept, as it is a kin of M, who was honestly thinking about if we should give him NEP 2 and type 5 Acausality, but seemed a bit much, he should downscale to M's jet black which is conceptual though.
Lily also instinctively pull the gun in response to the threat that was Edison, so yea that could come out pretty quick, and by this key, she can show up in a form of gold, and give people power with it, while engaging in conversations, it really doesn't seem like her golden power is limited anymore.This is contrasted to before where she had to immediately attack her opponent, cause she could only maintain her witch form for less than a second.
But of course Lily is oblivious to her own power, it's all going to be Instinctive for her.
Pretty sure speed equalize doesn't extend to amps, so that's normal human to FTL. Howler is at least a type 1 concept, as it is a kin of M, who was honestly thinking about if we should give him NEP 2 and type 5 Acausality, but seemed a bit much, he should downscale to M's jet black which is conceptual though.
Lily also instinctively pull the gun in response to the threat that was Edison, so yea that could come out pretty quick, and by this key, she can show up in a form of gold, and give people power with it, while engaging in conversations, it really doesn't seem like her golden power is limited anymore.This is contrasted to before where she had to immediately attack her opponent, cause she could only maintain her witch form for less than a second.
But of course Lily is oblivious to her own power, it's all going to be Instinctive for her.
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TheGreatJedi13
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i thought this is frmo top 15 strongest tier 10 ratings
so are we using their strongest key or those key?
so are we using their strongest key or those key?
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Her NEP also includes type 3 and isn't limited
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Both Lily's keys are tier 10 doe. She just gets higher ratings with witch of roses and golden gun
TheGreatJedi13
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im a goofy goober
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If this fight goes beyond Monika's first thought then Lily stomps.
Anyway, does she have any 5-D resistances?
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- Thread starter
- #18
Nope, only resistances she has are due to A's shadows, which we found out recently, is conceptual armor, which grants resistances to concept manipulation...
Also she has some other resistances too, but they aren't 5-d.
But A lost his shadows after Sona-Nyl, he only has it when he transforms into Howler, so before she had passive armor which is like 500xfaster than her always protecting her, Post-Sona Nyl she doesn’t.
So in a way in a vs match Sona-Nyl Lily might actually more broken thinking about it.
Also she has some other resistances too, but they aren't 5-d.
But A lost his shadows after Sona-Nyl, he only has it when he transforms into Howler, so before she had passive armor which is like 500xfaster than her always protecting her, Post-Sona Nyl she doesn’t.
So in a way in a vs match Sona-Nyl Lily might actually more broken thinking about it.
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The issue with this line of thinking is that Monika still existed within the game despite her character file (contains info, concept, mind, narrative, etc) being deleted.
And she was still able to delete herself and the entire game using her same powers still. So she should be able to affect nonexistence information with her abilities.
That being said I just don't see how Lily is going to regenerate when Monika can erase her across more aspects than she can regenerate from.
If she can not come back from narrative and nonexistent info erasure then she's dead permanently right off the bat.
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If Lily uses golden gun before Monika narratively + info erases then she wins
but if Monika uses her narrative info erasure first then she wins
this is probably incon
but if Monika uses her narrative info erasure first then she wins
this is probably incon
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It's not though because Monika's first move is always going to be deletion. And she does so with a thought whereas Lily has to actually pull out the gun from the looks of it.
Pretty cut and dry speed different between those two.
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How does Monika delete? Coz Lily instinctively pulls out the gun
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via Thought. I said so already. Instinctive action doesn't make a physical action faster than a thought.
TheGreatJedi13
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i don't want to contest it since it is in the profile. but this doesn't answer how all if it is information within the game so information still supersedes it since deleting the first save or reinstalling still lets he game continue still.
but either way, Celestial pegasus mentioned A being with him all the time
do we assume that he would be with her in this fight or will he be outside the battlefield
since if we put him outside it would put monika in a disadvantage because monika can only reach low 2-C and A being outside the are they will be fighting would be able to revive her.
but if he's with her they both can be deleted together which nulls any possible way to comeback assuming she gets deleted
idk what is considered standard whether a character connected to you completely being outside the fight or with you
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How he he going to revive her in the first place?
TheGreatJedi13
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by creating a new one using his memories
again Monika's range is universal+ at best and Lily's original place is outside that so anything involving her in those areas will remain unaffected
Monika could like auto-delete here to she can no longer comeback whenever she wants like what Monika did to the others but it seems to have a bit of weakness since they still exist if you forcefully return their files but as unrecognizable things or some random parse object. idk how Lily would deal with those tho
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Im not sure how much A could factor in but considering A will always be her shadow, he likely has to participate. In the strongest key it uses his Howler in Darkness so there is that to consider.
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- Thread starter
- #29
A is always in her shadow, but he could be elsewhere too, because A can exist in multiple places at once.
As long as anyone remembers Lily she can come back, so if A is alive she can come back.
A also follows her around while she is traveling across the universe/different time periods/other dimensions, while the real Liliy and A are in their train, idk how that plays in a match up honestly. Probably have to specify where A is. We have also seen hin going to other dimensions like Elysia without Lily.
But yea Post-Sona Nyl A can only fight with Howler, so that would be his first move, and as I said Howler is a type 1 concept.
As long as anyone remembers Lily she can come back, so if A is alive she can come back.
A also follows her around while she is traveling across the universe/different time periods/other dimensions, while the real Liliy and A are in their train, idk how that plays in a match up honestly. Probably have to specify where A is. We have also seen hin going to other dimensions like Elysia without Lily.
But yea Post-Sona Nyl A can only fight with Howler, so that would be his first move, and as I said Howler is a type 1 concept.
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train-kun solos
TheGreatJedi13
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like i said lack of reach. the same way plot hax won't reach someone from a higher dimension
She won't affect the plot outside the universe they are in. so their plot trace remains on other universe they are in
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What the **** calm down for a bit lol.
No, it's not. Plot and Concept are the same in DDLC given that the Script is literally just a file like anything else, why are you lying here?
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About this, given that the Player was able to remember the deleted Dokis literally only because they were outside the game, I don't think M would have a problem either.
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- Thread starter
- #37
Won't get any less confusing once A becomes another M.
There are hints that in the future A, will become another Nyarlathotep, and Lily will become Azathoth.
Same as how M/Nyarlathotep is the knight of Azathoth.
There are hints that in the future A, will become another Nyarlathotep, and Lily will become Azathoth.
Same as how M/Nyarlathotep is the knight of Azathoth.
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