Monster Hunter low tiers downgrade

[Keeweed]

Currently literally all low tier monsters scale to the Barroth. However a large majority of them shouldn’t. Barroth is officially rated as a threat rank 3 monster (rise). As shown with the turf wars in rise even the very strongest rank 1 monster is completely stomped by one of the weakest rank 2 monsters.

This means the ranks are separated by stomps, and this is shown constantly throughout the turf wars. Since Barroth is literally baseline high 8-C any backscaling at all would send these characters into the last tier, and rank 1 monsters shouldn’t scale to Barroth in any way. I believe one of the monsters beneath Barroth actually has a 8-C feat, but rank 2 monsters can probably downscale to 8-C+. However most rank 1 monsters should scale to the multitude of 9-A feats they have.

When it comes to the weakest rank 1s, like great Jagras and great Jaggi they should have the falling boulder feat from world calculated if it wasn’t already. The very small creature’s low tier feat should be removed, it comes from freezing which isn’t usable for physical ap anymore.

The Hunter should gain two new keys, very beginning game, where they couldn’t even fight Jagras (world), and early game which scales to rank 1 to 2 monsters.

 

[ElixirBlue]

Following

 

[Keeweed]

Just want to say I rechecked the low tier feats for mh and the 8-C ones are preformed by characters stronger than the barroth. They are just down by basic movement so the barroth feat isn’t an a outlier.

Every other feat preformed by the low tiers is 9-A which is consistent with canons and strong ballistas being able to either kill or scare these monsters off. It also lines up with them being hurt due to being slammed into walls and rank 1 monsters get practically wrecked from the falling boulder in world (the rock is like 10 feet wide and fragments upon impact so it is definitely a 9-A feat).

 

[JoshSSJGod]

The ingame star ranking varies from game to game and shouldn't really be taken as a way to scale the Monsters.
Lemme give you an example, if we did then Diablos would be 6-C (as in Generations Ultimate you could not fight Diablos until G-Rank which means you must kill Elder Dragons before fighting it) which in turn would make Rathalos 6-C as they are comparable to one another which in turn would cross scale to a bunch of other monsters such as Anjanath and Tobi Kadachi 6-C as it has the same number of stars as Barioth who has the number of stars as Nargacuga in MH4, MHGU, etc. Then in World Tobi has the same threat level as Pukei which would make the World Hunter's second large monster 6-C.

If you're still not convinced, monsters have gained and lost stars in different games. Nargacuga is the biggest example as in it's debut game MH3U it was a 4 star threat but was then increased to a 5 star threat in MH Generations. Basically using the threat levels as a way to scale the monsters leads to some circular scaling.

 

[Keeweed]

There is definitely still a clear stomping chain throughout the games, and while which stars the monsters are in which games vary, which monster are superior to others stay consistent. (It’s very late where I live so I’m using nicknames for some of the monsters). The bear monster gets effortlessly over powered by the duck monster and only lives because the duck monster couldn’t swallow him whole. The bear monsters desperate attack constantly fail against the other one and the other effortlessly chucks the bear to the side when it’s done with it. That mean within Rise the game threats these stars as stomp chains. This is consistent with other turf wars the duck monster fights another creature 1 star rank above it and it desperately tries to crawl away from the other monster and only barely escapes. Which stars the monsters are in doesn’t matter, what matters is that rise has the turf war animations and they consistently show that the next rank threat levels for this game stomp the previous threat levels. Even with the inconsistent stars Barroth is consistently one of the stronger low tier monsters and having literally every low tier scale to him makes zero sense. Especially monsters like the great Jagras and great Jaggi both of which are consistently stated to be absolutely pathetic in comparison to other monsters.

“Diablos would be 6-C (as in Generations Ultimate you could not fight Diablos until G-Rank which means you must kill Elder Dragons before fighting it)”

That’s not the stars I’m referring too. Rise has threat level and quest level be completely separate. Monsters that you fight end game story wise can have a threat level 1 star and are shown in the turf wars to be beneath all the other monsters of that quest level. The threat level stars in rise are surprising consistent and the turf wars constantly have lower threat level star monster get completely wrecked or panic when they try to fight the higher threat levels.

The threat stars don’t need to be consistent from game to game, because rise alone shows the scaling with the turf wars.

 

[JoshSSJGod]

"There is definitely still a clear stomping chain throughout the games, and while which stars the monsters are in which games vary, which monster are superior to others stay consistent."

May I ask that you please state this chain then?

"This is consistent with other turf wars the duck monster fights another creature 1 star rank above it and it desperately tries to crawl away from the other monster and only barely escapes."

May I have a scan of this turf war, please?

"Which stars the monsters are in doesn’t matter, what matters is that rise has the turf war animations and they consistently show that the next rank threat levels for this game stomp the previous threat levels." and "The threat level stars in rise are surprising consistent and the turf wars constantly have lower threat level star monster get completely wrecked or panic when they try to fight the higher threat levels."

That is actually not true, next to all of Rathian's turf wars have it compete and win with monsters 1-2 stars above it. Rathian defeats Anjanath and Tobi Kadachi ties with Zinogre and Nargacuga and from what turf wars I've seen loses to Magnamalo and Diablos.

 

[Keeweed]

Raithan uses the same turf war animation rathalos got in world against Anjanath. After watching it and playing rise to get the threat levels of Anjanath and Rathalos, I’m 90% sure it is just the animators being lazy with a combination of it being a oversight. Ignoring how I don’t even think that turf war is a stomp to begin with. Stuff like the Arzuros vs tetranadon have Arzuros get overpowered in a duel, fail to do any damage with its attacks, and when Tetranadon is done with Arzuros he causally throws him to the side and walks away. Meanwhile with Rathian vs Anjanath, Rathian just picks them up and drops them. All they needed to do was overpower their weight, nothing else.

Though I need to watch the rest of the turf war animations later, so give me time to do that.

I will like to talk about the monsters that no matter what should be downgraded. Small monsters scale to freezing the Hunter, but freezing no longer scales physically. The Great Jagras and Great Jaggi are both laughably inferior to all other large monsters, with many of them killing them nigh instantly. The Hunter is stated in world at the beginning of the game to be completely powerless against regular jagras and they needed to quickly hide to escape. Also even without the threat level stars, there are monsters definitely inferior to Barroth, but I’m currently busy so I’ll go make a list of monster absolutely inferior to the Barroth some time this afternoon.

 

[Keeweed]

Just rewatched some of the fights and both Rathalos and Anjanath body Tobi and he’s one threat level below them. Nargacuga is stated to have weak durablity (its armor is said to be fragile). So that’s why tobi can hurt them.

Edit: I just watched all the turf wars. tobi vs Zinogre doesn’t happen based off what I’ve seen. Also Zinogre ties with Rathalos while tobi gets bodied so Tobi being able to fight Zinogre would be the outlier here.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I dunno much about the older games nor have I looked into Rise. I know Barroth is fairly close to a baseline monster depending on his appearance and feel he should scale to all other monsters fine- but that is just my opinion.

 

[Keeweed]

The Barroth definitely isn’t a baseline monster. He’s universally is placed well within the mid tier of low tier monsters, and monsters like Great Jagras and Jaggi absolutely shouldn’t scale. Especially since their are dozens of 9-A feats from the low tiers and one of those 9-A feats wrecks the Jagras and Jaggi (it doesn’t kill them but it breaks a ton of their parts and takes away a large chunk of their health).

I just want to say I’m currently hanging out with one of my friends so I’ll be back later.

 

[Antvasima]

@ShiroyashaGinSan @Veloxt1r0kore @KieranH10

What do you think about this?

 

[KieranH10]

I agree with this to a degree, barroth is indeed a relatively early monster from my experience, so most should scale to him imo.

On the other hand, Bird Wyverns could potentially get downgraded imo, generally from my own experience with the games, bird wyverns are generally much weaker than even barroth level monsters, so I could get behind something like that, as bird wyverns are notably weaker than other proper monsters, and are commonly the first real monsters you fight that aren't fodder.

 

[Keeweed]

I just want to say I just remembered two feats that low tier monsters can preform in rise. I want to calc them and see what results they get because it would scale to the super weak rank 1 monsters and if the results of both feats is 9-A they would be incredibly consistent with the other dozen 9-A feats the low tiers currently have. Though I’m at work right now so let me calc the feats when I get home (the feats I’m thinking of is: there is a rock structure near the start of the first area that the monsters can break, and Arzuros can break a large wood tower in the ride training quest).

I also want to argue more about the scaling but I want to gather some scans so I’ll do that either this afternoon or after I finish my homework Saturday.

Also also Barroth definitely isn’t the most powerful low tier, plenty do scale to him, but not literally all of them should scale to him.

 

[Dusty_Raider]

I just want to say while Great Jagras is definitely low tier, Anjanath has to throw it around and slam it around to kill it . It’s insanely one sided but anjanath still had put some effort to bring it down. It’s at least durable enough to survive a heavy beat down from anjanath if only for a short while.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

That huge ******* boulder coming down on his head didn't even hurt him, it just pissed him off! XD

 

[Antvasima]

@LordGriffin1000 @Theglassman12 @Schnee_One @Crabwhale @GyroNutz @DarkGrath @The_Wright_Way @Moritzva @Everything12 @Duedate8898 @Planck69 @KingTempest

Would any of you be willing to help evaluate this?

 

[Planck69]

Reading through the OP, they make sense but I have no knowledge on the verse so I can't say anything definitive.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for the input.

 

[KingTempest]

I have the same views as Planck. I have no info of the verse whatsoever, but the arguments make sense.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thank you for the help.

 

[Antvasima]

So is the current input sufficient to apply the suggested revisions?

 

[The_Axiom_of_Virgo]

And this is why you actually ask knowledge peeps of the verse regardless if they staff or not.

It's a hard no on scaling monsters via threat/quest levels which consistently contradict each other with each game.

 

[The_Axiom_of_Virgo]

As seen in this vid, Tetrandon (a 2* monster) manages to beat Volvidon (a 4* monster) and ties with Goss Harag (a 7* monster) which adds credence that in-game threat levels are (mostly) unreliable.

Further backing this is the fact Anajanath (a 6* monster) gets beaten by Rathian (a 4* monster) yet manages to tie with Diablos (a 7* monster) and Anajanath was a mid tier monster in MH World yet is treated as a high tier monster in MH Rise (if we go by threat/quest levels) yet more proof of the contradictions.

EDiT: While it maybe true that animators got lazy and just decided to re-use assets, at that point we're just cherry-picking what's consider "consistent" since that's just fundamental game design (I mean how many games use palette swaps of the same enemy and/or re-use the same animations for different characters?).

 

[Dusty_Raider]

It literally says on Great Jaggi’s profiles that it can somewhat match a rathian( something that is directly comparable to Rathalos, an apex predator)

 

[The_Axiom_of_Virgo]

Also I believe the small monsters may have some 9-B/9-A feats for boulder related shenanigans too (since temperature feats are no longer viable).

As for the bird wyverns I'll assume Kieran ment the dromes/great monsters? (the ones that resemble raptors) since Malfestio and Yian Garuga are both bird wyverns too yet neither them (especially the latter) are anything but low tier.

 

[Keeweed]

I just want to say while Great Jagras is definitely low tier, Anjanath has to throw it around and slam it around to kill it . It’s insanely one sided but anjanath still had put some effort to bring it down. It’s at least durable enough to survive a heavy beat down from anjanath if only for a short while.

It died from the throw at the end. It being thrashed around is it getting completely stomped, and we scale characters to getting stomped no matter how long they survived. The Anjanath is said by the handler that the Hunter isn’t strong enough to fight them in anyway around the time they can easily defeat the great Jagras.

 

[Keeweed]

That huge ******* boulder coming down on his head didn't even hurt him, it just pissed him off! XD

Many monsters do still scale to Barroth, the Anjanath is easily one that scales.

@Dusty_Raider
“It literally says on Great Jaggi’s profiles that it can somewhat match a rathian”

The profile doesn’t link any justification to that claim. It just says it is comparable without evidence.

 

[Keeweed]

As seen in this vid, Tetrandon (a 2* monster) manages to beat Volvidon (a 4* monster) and ties with Goss Harag (a 7* monster) which adds credence that in-game threat levels are (mostly) unreliable.

Further backing this is the fact Anajanath (a 6* monster) gets beaten by Rathian (a 4* monster) yet manages to tie with Diablos (a 7* monster) and Anajanath was a mid tier monster in MH World yet is treated as a high tier monster in MH Rise (if we go by threat/quest levels) yet more proof of the contradictions.

EDiT: While it maybe true that animators got lazy and just decided to re-use assets, at that point we're just cherry-picking what's consider "consistent" since that's just fundamental game design (I mean how many games use palette swaps of the same enemy and/or re-use the same animations for different characters?).

They clearly were very lazy with those animations. Volvidon has 3 to 4 of its moves ripped straight from Arzuros. Rathian literally just picks up and drops Anjanath, it didn’t need to overpower it in any way, just needed to get past its weight. Also that animation is completely reused. Anjanath doesn’t tie with Diablos, in the end he gets overpowered and effortlessly chucked. I mean he’s closer than many of the other fights, but he still was inferior in the end.

 

[Dusty_Raider]

If they were so lazy then why use turf wars for scaling?

 

[Dusty_Raider]

At that point they just seem unreliable.

 

[Antvasima]

@Mr._Bambu @ShiroyashaGinSan @Aridwolverine @GimmyJibbsJr @Veloxt1r0kore @Anttron224 @RulerOfTheAbyss @KieranH10 @The_Axiom_of_Virgo

What do you think that we should do here?

Also, Axiom, you should write yourself down in the Monster Hunter verse page and our knowledgeable members list.

 

[Keeweed]

If they were so lazy then why use turf wars for scaling?

Because the ones that have proper animations have proper animations that showcase the interactions between the monsters. It’s very clear which ones are copy and paste and which ones have time and effort put into them. Also if literally every monster, including the great Jagras, all scale to Barroth is there any reason his feat isn’t an outlier. There is dozens of 9-A feats with many of them requiring great effort. And when I calc the feats I’ve found in rise (trust me I’ll do that today), there are probably going to be even more 9-A feats and those feats require a lot of effort on the monster’s part. There are 8-C feats but they are preformed by monsters absolutely superior to the Rathalos, and Rathalos is comparable to Diablos, and Diablos instantly kills the Barroth in his opening cutscene in world.

 

[The_Axiom_of_Virgo]

They clearly were very lazy with those animations. Volvidon has 3 to 4 of its moves ripped straight from Arzuros. Rathian literally just picks up and drops Anjanath, it didn’t need to overpower it in any way, just needed to get past its weight. Also that animation is completely reused. Anjanath doesn’t tie with Diablos, in the end he gets overpowered and effortlessly chucked. I mean he’s closer than many of the other fights, but he still was inferior in the end.

My point exactly it's game design which is why I'm strongly against using threat/quest levels for scaling (I prefer in-game statements/lore/feats backed by guidebooks for scaling imo).

Speaking of which after deliberating it for awhile, I personally don't think we should use turf wars for (direct) scaling, apart from reused animations (which kinda blurs into game mechanics territory) there's a TON of CiS in them e.g:

*Velkhana Vs Rajang; Velkhana a quintessential ice dragon that normally fights with elegance and grace alongside it's obvious ice manipulation decides forget all that and gets into a physical tussle with Rajang (a monster that substantially weak to ice) ending in a "tie".

*Lunastra Vs Velkhana; aside from being a re-use of Teostra Vs Kushala neither elder dragon uses their elemental powers despite being substantially weak to each other's elements Velkhana being weak to fire and Lunastra being weak to ice.

*All Brachydios turf wars; unlike it's cut-scenes against Lavasioth, Uragaan and Agaknator (where it uses it's explosive slime to great effect). Brachy doesn't use it's most potent weapon in any of its turf wars because "reasons".

Also my snarky initial comment on this CRT aside, I don't really believe in the knowledgeable members list on verses pages tbh (if I'm knowledgeable about a verse and I genuinely enjoy it then that's enough for me).

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I stand by what I said before. Jagras and co are indeed weaker that Barroth, but not significantly enough for me to say they don't scale.

 

[The_Axiom_of_Virgo]

My last comment on this CRT I'm supposed to be on a relaxing trip.

Honestly the High 8-C to 9-A isn't that major tbh (iirc it's already accepted monsters gain a x2 multiplier via rage power which on top of scaling above Barroth's High 8-C feat gives Rathalos tier monsters more solid jurisdictions for High 8-C).

As for the main point of this CRT, it's still should be noted even low tier monsters can survive blows from stronger monsters without immediately getting one-shot at worst they should just downscale (according to the MH wiki Great Jaggi will sometimes attack other large monsters including high tier monsters like Rathalos).

Personally I wouldn't mind 9-A for small monsters (via scaling to the "boulder stuff" and being above real world 9-Bs), possibly 8-C for the absolute fodder large monsters (down-scaling from Barroth and the low rank hunter) and High 8-C for everything else (ofc if nothing changes as a result of this CRT and stuff like Great Jagras keep their High 8-C ratings I wouldn't mind either).

That's my take on this CRT peace!

 

[Keeweed]

@Bambu
“I stand by what I said before. Jagras and co are indeed weaker that Barroth, but not significantly enough for me to say they don't scale.”

If they are weaker then they aren’t high 8-C, the feat is straight baseline so being inferior in literally any way puts them into the previous tiers. Also I believe our standards on violent fragmentation changed recently so I’m not sure if Barroth feat qualifies. Though I’m going to be busy for a while. I’ll be back in a few hours.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

@Bambu
“I stand by what I said before. Jagras and co are indeed weaker that Barroth, but not significantly enough for me to say they don't scale.”

If they are weaker then they aren’t high 8-C, the feat is straight baseline so being inferior in literally any way puts them into the previous tiers. Also I believe our standards on violent fragmentation changed recently so I’m not sure if Barroth feat qualifies. Though I’m going to be busy for a while. I’ll be back in a few hours.

You can be weaker than a High 8-C and still scale. Downscaling to 8-C could work, I suppose, but uh eh. Also, what standards lol? Barroth V. Fragged the boulder, our values are still the same for that material, the feat is fine.

 

[Antvasima]

My last comment on this CRT I'm supposed to be on a relaxing trip.

Honestly the High 8-C to 9-A isn't that major tbh (iirc it's already accepted monsters gain a x2 multiplier via rage power which on top of scaling above Barroth's High 8-C feat gives Rathalos tier monsters more solid jurisdictions for High 8-C).

As for the main point of this CRT, it's still should be noted even low tier monsters can survive blows from stronger monsters without immediately getting one-shot at worst they should just downscale (according to the MH wiki Great Jaggi will sometimes attack other large monsters including high tier monsters like Rathalos).

Personally I wouldn't mind 9-A for small monsters (via scaling to the "boulder stuff" and being above real world 9-Bs), possibly 8-C for the absolute fodder large monsters (down-scaling from Barroth and the low rank hunter) and High 8-C for everything else (ofc if nothing changes as a result of this CRT and stuff like Great Jagras keep their High 8-C ratings I wouldn't mind either).

That's my take on this CRT peace!

What do you think about this Mr. Bambu?

 

[Keeweed]

What counts as violent frag I’ve heard has become vastly stricter to qualify for.

Also 8-C or 8-C+ was what I was shooting for with most low tier monsters. 9-A was literally only supposed to be for Great Jagras level monsters. I.E absolute fodder.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

What counts as violent frag I’ve heard has become vastly stricter to qualify for.

Also 8-C or 8-C+ was what I was shooting for with most low tier monsters. 9-A was literally only supposed to be for Great Jagras level monsters. I.E absolute fodder.

Yeah but I literally cannot agree with 9-A for Jagras tier monsters given they take a beatdown from monsters stronger than Barroth. This 8-C rating would be exclusive to such monsters, Keeweed.