• This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.

    For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here.
  • We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.

    Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.

    Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page.
  • Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.

Naruto Jins and Soul Manip

Status
Not open for further replies.
KingogKings777

KingogKings777

2,874
1,771
Short and lackluster with no effort

The following characters shouldn't have Soul Manipulation as an ability seeing as they do not fit our definition of it. They do however fit the definition of NPI which they already have.
Soul Manipulation is the ability to interact with one's soul or the souls of others. This ability ranges from being able to project the power of one's soul outward, grasping and ripping the souls of others out of their bodies, outright consuming souls to gain power, among other applications.

Generally speaking, we judge the potency of Soul Manipulation both by what it can do and by how many people its user can affect at once with it. This may range from only a few people at a time to entire planetary populations.

When judging the potency of Soul Manipulation, and the resistance against it, there is a variety of factors to be considered. Such as the mechanisms involved, how many people the Soul Manipulation can affect, whether it has demonstrated to break through resistances, how great the effects are, etc.

It should be noted that the ability to interact with souls and other non-corporeal entities directly as if they were physical objects is usually considered Non-Physical Interaction and does not grant the user the ability to manipulate souls in other contexts.

Under normal circumstances, most characters are assumed to have a soul by default unless the original medium specifies otherwise. Those who do not possess soul are usually considered to be immune to most applications of Soul Manipulation.
Click to expand...

The reason they have it in the first place is based off of the following scan of Naruto playing tug of war with his. And as we note on the Soul Manip page interacting with souls and other non-corporeal entities directly as if they were physical objects is usually considered Non-Physical Interaction and does not grant the user the ability to manipulate souls in other contexts.

Soul Manipulation and Non-Physical Interaction (Tailed Beast Chakra Arms users can interact with the soul)
Click to expand...
Resistance to Soul Manipulation (Resisted Nagato's attempt to extract his soul, although he was saved by Itachi soon after)
Click to expand...


Once Nagato's arm is cut off it goes right back into him.
0551-008.png


Character that would be affected by this change are Gaara, Yugito Nii, Yagura Karatachi, Roshi, Fu, Killer B, Naruto Uzumaki. I do not include Obito or Madara since they have the Rinnagan which grants them soul manip abilities.

Agrees - LordGriffin1000(fine with removing it or adding limited soul manip), Excel616, Damage3245, Nierre, BrackishBrineBroth

Neutrals -

Disagrees - Deceived3596
 
Last edited:
Soul Manipulation is the ability to interact with one's soul or the souls of others. This ability ranges from being able to project the power of one's soul outward, grasping and ripping the souls of others out of their bodies, outright consuming souls to gain power, among other applications.
Click to expand...

KingogKings777 said:
The reason they have it in the first place is based off of the following scan of Naruto playing tug of war with his.
Click to expand...
You do know that it being NPI doesn't mean it can't be soul manipulation, right?
In fact, it's NPI and Soul Manipulation on the pages
KingogKings777 said:
And as we note on the Soul Manip page interacting with souls and other non-corporeal entities directly as if they were physical objects is usually considered Non-Physical Interaction and does not grant the user the ability to manipulate souls in other contexts.
Click to expand...
I mean
Nobody is claiming that they can do big mom type shit
 
Testarossa002 said:
You do know that it being NPI doesn't mean it can't be soul manipulation, right?
In fact, it's NPI and Soul Manipulation on the pages
Click to expand...
Did Naruto or any jin display any soul manip abilities? Also you left out the and part of the second bold area. which was the following.
grasping and ripping the souls of others out of their bodies
Click to expand...
We make it a point to point out the following.
It should be noted that the ability to interact with souls and other non-corporeal entities directly as if they were physical objects is usually considered Non-Physical Interaction and does not grant the user the ability to manipulate souls in other contexts.
Click to expand...
What does Naruto do in the scan? Tell me. It's like he does the above exactly as we worded it.
Testarossa002 said:
I mean
Nobody is claiming that they can do big mom type shit
Click to expand...
I don't read one piece so it kinda lost on me.
 
Last edited:

As Kabuto mentioned, it takes your soul and kills you, it extracts the souls of others from their bodies as mentioned on the wiki page, it directly consumes souls to gain power, among other applications Naruto resisted Nagato's soul being separated from his body. He both NPI and soul manipulation resistance.
 
It's basically just the ability to touch souls which is a version of Non-Physical Interaction. No real manipulation is being done on Naruto's part other than touching it, which at it's absolute best would be grounds for "limited" soul manipulation and even then I'm someone who would simply not add it at that point (Heck I didn't give it to characters from verses I revise) given NPI with a detailed description would explain it but that's me, I really don't care. We know he doesn't have full on soul manipulation to some fantastic degree so as long as it's explained properly it's not going to cause issue regardless of if it's removed or not in my honest opinion.
 
LordGriffin1000 said:
It's basically just the ability to touch souls which is a version of Non-Physical Interaction. No real manipulation is being done on Naruto's part other than touching it,
Click to expand...
dirty-docks-shawty.gif

LordGriffin1000 said:
which at it's absolute best would be grounds for "limited" soul manipulation and even then I'm someone who would simply not add it at that point (Heck I didn't give it to characters from verses I revise) given NPI with a detailed description would explain it but that's me, I really don't care. We know he doesn't have full on soul manipulation to some fantastic degree so as long as it's explained properly it's not going to cause issue regardless of if it's removed or not in my honest opinion.
Click to expand...
Can I put you down as an Agree as long as it's explained properly?
 
Soul Manipulation and Non-Physical Interaction (Tailed Beast Chakra Arms users can interact with the soul)
Click to expand...
Yeah just interaction won't grant an ability to manipulate them.

It's like saying someone has NPI for CM type 1 so he can manipulate CM type 1 itself which is dumb.

So it should be only listed as NPI not Manipulation of ability.

Well unless there is another scans shows these characters can manipulate souls just interaction feat should be treated as NPI only.
 
This entire thread misunderstands two crucial points:

1. The differentials between Non-Physical Interaction and Soul Manipulation

2. The feat in question.

I agree that only interacting with normally intangible objects as if they were solid, such as an incorporeal soul, would only be classified as Non-Physical Interaction. I don't agree that in Naruto's case he's only grasping his soul and that's it.

See, when actually broken down scan by scan, we can clearly see that Naruto didn't just grasp his soul, and after the connection with Nagato was broken, the soul magically re-entered his body. We can see that Naruto did grasp his soul, but after the connection was broken, we can still see his soul is still outside of his body, proving that breaking the connection didn't cause the soul to re-enter his form. It was only after Itachi moved both Bee and Naruto that we can see his soul isn't protruding out of his body anymore. Implying that Naruto placed it back into himself by then.

This would be classified as Soul Manipulation since he's capable of placing his soul back into his body after it was mostly removed by Nagato, someone with just Non-Physical Interaction couldn't do this as this wasn't a byproduct of just interacting with it as if it was physical, you couldn't just place your soul back into your body after it was removed just through being capable physically grasping it, that conditionally requires a level of manipulation to occur. It also directly contradicts what's explained by the Soul Manipulation page itself.

Soul Manipulation is the ability to interact with one's soul or the souls of others. This ability ranges from being able to project the power of one's soul outward, grasping and ripping the souls of others out of their bodies, outright consuming souls to gain power, among other applications.
Click to expand...

Naruto's feat would be classified under interacting with his own soul, and doing the reverse of ripping someone's soul out, which was him placing his soul back into his own body.

I believe I have demonstrably proven that the OP's claims are incorrect and are created through misunderstanding the feat in question and the differentials between Soul Manipulation and Non-Physical Interaction.

I do agree that the actual explanation should be revised for further clarity as it doesn't explain what exact type of soul manipulation Jins have.
 
Deceived3596 said:
We can see that Naruto did grasp his soul, but after the connection was broken, we can still see his soul is still outside of his body, proving that breaking the connection didn't cause the soul to re-enter his form. It was only after Itachi moved both Bee and Naruto that we can see his soul isn't protruding out of his body anymore. Implying that Naruto placed it back into himself by then.
Click to expand...
Couldn't this simply be explained by the soul re-entering his body not being an instantaneous process but just something that takes a second (or given how quick the characters are, even less)?

I don't see any implication that Naruto placed it back back into himself.
 
Damage3245 said:
Couldn't this simply be explained by the soul re-entering his body not being an instantaneous process but just something that takes a second?

I don't see any implication that Naruto placed it back back into himself.
Click to expand...
You can interpret that scene as such, but I don't believe those are equal interpretations, and even if I believed they were, the ability would only be downgraded to a possibly as both interpretations have relative levels of probability. It wouldn't fully remove the ability as the OP is suggesting it should.
 
Okay. I'm currently leaning in favor of removing the Soul Manipulation part and keeping it just as Non-Physical Interaction, like LordGriffin.
 
Deceived3596 said:
This entire thread misunderstands two crucial points:

1. The differentials between Non-Physical Interaction and Soul Manipulation

2. The feat in question.

I agree that only interacting with normally intangible objects as if they were solid, such as an incorporeal soul, would only be classified as Non-Physical Interaction. I don't agree that in Naruto's case he's only grasping his soul and that's it.
Click to expand...
Agreed with NPI.
Deceived3596 said:
See, when actually broken down scan by scan, we can clearly see that Naruto didn't just grasp his soul, and after the connection with Nagato was broken, the soul magically re-entered his body. We can see that Naruto did grasp his soul, but after the connection was broken, we can still see his soul is still outside of his body, proving that breaking the connection didn't cause the soul to re-enter his form. It was only after Itachi moved both Bee and Naruto that we can see his soul isn't protruding out of his body anymore. Implying that Naruto placed it back into himself by then.
Click to expand...
The second scan you use "we can still see his soul is still outside of his body" we see it hanging out but still connected in the next panel is already back in him. From the scans used it looks like it just went back inside of him since it wasn't being pulled out anymore by Nagato the one who does have the soul manipulation. Naruto isn't manipulating anything in the scans he only physically grabbing it and playing tug of war with his soul after Nagato grabbed it and started pulling it out.
Deceived3596 said:
This would be classified as Soul Manipulation since he's capable of placing his soul back into his body after it was mostly removed by Nagato, someone with just Non-Physical Interaction couldn't do this as this wasn't a byproduct of just interacting with it as if it was physical, you couldn't just place your soul back into your body after it was removed just through being capable physically grasping it, that conditionally requires a level of manipulation to occur. It also directly contradicts what's explained by the Soul Manipulation page itself.

Naruto's feat would be classified under interacting with his own soul, and doing the reverse of ripping someone's soul out, which was him placing his soul back into his own body.
Click to expand...
Which fits under our definition of NPI. Which Naruto was obviously displaying instead of Soul Manipulation.
The power to interact with intangible or non-corporeal beings or objects. Users can both see and interact with intangible, or non-corporeal, abstract, and nonexistent objects or life-forms and entities, allowing them to make physical contact and possibly cause harm.

It should be noted that the ability to interact with souls and other non-corporeal entities directly as if they were physical objects is usually considered Non-Physical Interaction and does not grant the user the ability to manipulate them in other contexts.
Click to expand...
Deceived3596 said:
I do agree that the actual explanation should be revised for further clarity as it doesn't explain what exact type of soul manipulation Jins have.
Click to expand...
If this doesn't pass plz someone do this.
 
I completely agree with op. Naruto's resistance to soul manipulation has always bugged me anyway, what with how limited it is in-context. The reason why I never created a thread for it is because I didn't want to be dogpiled by Naruto fans.
 
Damage3245 said:
Okay. I'm currently leaning in favor of removing the Soul Manipulation part and keeping it just as Non-Physical Interaction, like LordGriffin.
Click to expand...
May you clarify why you aren't leaning towards a "possibly" rating, or another prefix like limited, is the claim provided by the OP that more supported by the evidence compared to mine?.
 
KingogKings777 said:
The second scan you use "we can still see his soul is still outside of his body" we see it hanging out but still connected in the next panel is already back in him. From the scans used it looks like it just went back inside of him since it wasn't being pulled out anymore by Nagato the one who does have the soul manipulation. Naruto isn't manipulating anything in the scans he only physically grabbing it and playing tug of war with his soul after Nagato grabbed it and started pulling it out.
Click to expand...
I don't agree with that interpretation. Naruto, regardless of if he was still actively pulling or not, would still experience the residual force generated from him pulling his soul previously. To use an example, imagine two people having a tug of war with a rope, both are pulling with equal force in two opposite directions. If you were to split the rope down the middle, both sliced sections would be flung to where the force was generated, which would be the two opposite directions that both people were pulling from.

This exact instance could have happened with Naruto, he and Nagato were having a tug of war with his soul, Itachi split the metaphorical "rope" down the middle, and the residual force created through that previous tug caused Naruto to pull his soul back into his body. What's your counter argument against this interpretation having similar levels of probability as your claim.

Nagato having direct statements and feats of Soul Manipulation doesn't mean we'd assume he was the only reason that Naruto's soul re-entered his body, that doesn't logically follow. Especially when Naruto himself has feats of interacting with his own soul, both claims are equally as probable if we were to follow that line of logic.

KingogKings777 said:
Which fits under our definition of NPI. Which Naruto was obviously displaying instead of Soul Manipulation.
Click to expand...
Doing the reverse of ripping someone's soul out wouldn't fit under our definition of Non-Physical Interaction entirely, the act of interaction with said intangible object would be NPI, but pulling your soul back into yourself would be considered as a form of Soul Manipulation.
 
ssgengar said:
Tbf, with the ability itself I’m sort of neutral

But I disagree with the resistance because even if you want to look at the ability as just NPI, naruto is still using it to resist his soul being snatched from his body
Click to expand...
It's just a strength feat.
 
ssgengar said:
I don’t see how that changes the fact that he’s literally resisting having his soul taken. Nagato used soul manip on him, and regardless of the method naruto could resist
Click to expand...
I mean, he was barely holding on to it and it's heavily implied that he was going to lose his grip had Itachi not intervened. Plus a lot of soul abilities on the site don't grab and yank the soul like the rinnegan does; they target the soul to attack and damage directly.
 
BrackishBrineBroth said:
I mean, he was barely holding on to it and it's heavily implied that he was going to lose his grip had Itachi not intervened.
Click to expand...
Well sure but it still shows a degree of resisting soul manipulation. We saw during the pain arc how quickly the rinnegan can snatch the soul of someone who can’t resist, yet naruto was able to resist it long enough for the process to be cut short by itachi. This was multiple pages of naruto hanging on and tbh if we bring up implications, I think it could be fair to say that it’s implied naruto’s resistance could’ve possibly improved a bit. Because right before itachi intervened, killer bee reminded him about his tug of war with kurama in hopes that it would keep him from getting soul ripped

BrackishBrineBroth said:
Plus a lot of soul abilities on the site don't grab and yank the soul like the rinnegan does; they target the soul to attack and damage directly.
Click to expand...
I mean it’s still soul manipulation though. In this case it really isn’t intended to damage a soul, but to just straight up take it. With situations like that I’m pretty sure it isn’t that uncommon for a soul to be forcibly yanked. And even if it is, it doesn’t change the fact that it’s a move which specifically targets the soul
 
Damage3245 said:
Sure.
Click to expand...
Cool, here's the list of profiles that need to be unlocked.

Bijū​

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Shukaku_(Ichibi)
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Matatabi_(Nibi)
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Isobu_(Sanbi)
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Son_Gokū_(Yonbi)
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Kokuo_(Gobi)
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Saiken_(Rokubi)
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Chōmei_(Nanabi)
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Kurama_(Kyūbi)
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Shinju_(Jūbi)

Jinchūriki​

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Gaara
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Yugito_Nii
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Yagura_Karatachi
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Rōshi_(Naruto)
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Fū_(Naruto)
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Killer_B
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Naruto_Uzumaki_(Part_II:_War_Arc)#Kurama_Chakra_Mode
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Obito_Uchiha#Jūbi_Jinchūriki
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Madara_Uchiha#Jūbi_Jinchūriki

The old one
Soul Manipulation and Non-Physical Interaction with Tailed Beast Chakra Arms (Tailed Beast Chakra Arms users can interact with the soul)
Click to expand...
The new one
Non-Physical Interaction with Tailed Beast Chakra Arms (Tailed Beast Chakra Arms users can physically interact with intangible objects like their soul when it's halfway extracted from them)
Click to expand...
Will make the changes later today when I'm not busy.
 
Last edited:
KingogKings777 said:
Cool, here's the list of profiles that need to be unlocked.

Bijū​

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Shukaku_(Ichibi)
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Matatabi_(Nibi)
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Isobu_(Sanbi)
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Son_Gokū_(Yonbi)
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Kokuo_(Gobi)
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Saiken_(Rokubi)
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Chōmei_(Nanabi)
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Kurama_(Kyūbi)
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Shinju_(Jūbi)

Jinchūriki​

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Gaara
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Yugito_Nii
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Yagura_Karatachi
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Rōshi_(Naruto)
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Fū_(Naruto)
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Killer_B
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Naruto_Uzumaki_(Part_II:_War_Arc)#Kurama_Chakra_Mode
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Obito_Uchiha#Jūbi_Jinchūriki
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Madara_Uchiha#Jūbi_Jinchūriki

The old one

The new one
Click to expand...
Is Naruto also losing his resistance to soul manipulation?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

KingogKings777
Boruto's dad Soul Manip and resistance
Replies
31
Views
2K
KingogKings777
KingogKings777
AlternativePrinciple
Black Balls.... That Cause Alot Of Problems (Naruto Rivision)
Replies
12
Views
979
KingogKings777
KingogKings777
MadaraZKX
Jinchūriki Partial Transformation
Replies
37
Views
2K
LeOuterCore
LeOuterCore
MadaraZKX
Jinchūriki and Gyūki's regeneration
Replies
23
Views
2K
Damage3245
Damage3245
DavidTPPM
Soul Manipulation vs Soul Manipulation Resistance
Replies
4
Views
836
LordGriffin1000
LordGriffin1000
Back
Top