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Nasuverse Discussion Board 16

XenoBreaker2803 said:
Pretty sure by this logic CCC Heaven Hole is also a mental attack considering how they more or less have the same exact description.
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Which is the point, the two NPs are attacking one's mind rather the body.
 
Heaven Hole is pretty literal too, Kiara's descriptions make it clear that the scale and power of her attacks are literal. And just because there are mental effects, doesn't mean it's an illusory mindhax, because, you know, it actually does physical damage too and there's no statement of it being an illusion.
 
The NP of Beast III which breeds infinite demon pillars within its body. Her body is now a universe of its own'''', and a paradise. Anyone drawn into it loses their existence, with their consciousness liberated and their will melted. No matter how strong their body, or how much armour they have, this is meaningless inside Kiara's body, and they become as powerless as a newborn as they are liberated. 'Beast III is a hole in reality itself, but those drawn into the hole are overcome with ecstasy as they are erased. One could say that liberation from the reality of suffering is a form of salvation.


Found this in the thread that upgraded her to 4-B.
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
Heaven Hole is pretty literal too, Kiara's descriptions make it clear that the scale and power of her attacks are literal. And just because there are mental effects, doesn't mean it's an illusory mindhax, because, you know, it actually does physical damage too and there's no statement of it being an illusion.
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Please show me a quote that states that she grows into the size of a solar system. It's clearly meant to show her being a solar system level threat, heck her mats entry even says that the scale of her existence is inferior to her incarnation in CCC further reinforcing the point that she doesn't grow into a size that dwarfs planets.

"Although the scale of the existence of the Pleasure Deva that was born once on the moon is superior to Beast III, they say that she had no choice but to withdraw when faced with a messiah since she did not possess this skill."

This is how Heaven's Hole works

"The Noble Phantasm for Beast III's exclusive-use, which breeds a virtually infinite amount of demon pillars within her own body. The inside of her body has already become a single universe, the Sukhavati. Those brought inside her will disappear from reality, having their egos removed and their reason melted away. No matter what kind of robust body or defensive armor one might have, they are meaningless inside Kiara's body; they are all rendered powerless like a newborn existence and liberated from earthly desires and the woes of man. Beast III is the "hole" itself that was formed in reality, and those who fall into this hole taste the greatest pleasure imaginable right before disappearing and are absorbed by Kiara while drowning in ecstasy."

Notice how they don't talk about the solar system stuff? Or the physical damage. The entry says that she pulls her target into the universe in her body where she melts away their reason and ego before absorbing them. No physical damage is done, it even says so when it talks about how physical defense is useless against the attack due to its nature.

In the case of Kiara, both nps are clearly mental and spiritual attacks not just attacks with some mental effects. Just look at the description of Heaven's Hole pulls I posted above same with Angra Mainyu CCC.

This is the important part.

"This vortex of pleasure works on any sapient being without exception, no matter how different the structure of their intelligence is. This is not a Noble Phantasm limited to the Earth. It has a special effect of doing more damage in certain conditions, the damage increasing if it's used on the opposite sex, and the higher the intelligence the greater the damage."

There are no statements that it does any physical damage and all other descriptions explicitly states that they are mental attacks. Kiara even talks about the nature of her power as being centred around mental stuff instead of raw power in the quote about Goetia I posted above. Claiming that both attacks does physical damage is baseless headcanon that contradicts the canon material.

There are no statements of them being illusions because they aren't illusions. She does exactly what they are described as in the mats. Angra Mainyu CCC takes the pleasure of an planet to melt her targets, and Heaven's Hole pulls targets into the universe in her body where she melts their ego and reason before absorbing them. However she does not literally do what the visuals show, as they are merely meant to convey scale as Nasu even says when he talks about why the visuals are so huge.
 
Or maybe Nasu was talking about her being a being of solar system scale because she literally creates a pocket universe and grows to such a size as shown in the visuals, with absolutely nothing in any text saying that it is metaphorical or purely mental.
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
Or maybe Nasu was talking about her being a being of solar system scale because she literally creates a pocket universe and grows to such a size as shown in the visuals, with absolutely nothing in any text saying that it is metaphorical or purely mental.
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It would be nice if you actually had evidence for this beyond literally taking the visuals at face value.
 
Ramesses the Sun King said:
Okay so you are going with headcanon.
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You're really the one doing it, nothing about the quotes you bring suggest that it's not a feat that can be quantified and scaled. You rely so utterly much on the statements that it is mental to ignore all other statements, such as Nasu's, etc to suggest that it's "m e t a p h o r i c a l"

Without any real evidence for it.
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
You're really the one doing it, nothing about the quotes you bring suggest that it's not a feat that can be quantified and scaled. You rely so utterly much on the statements that it is mental to ignore all other statements, such as Nasu's, etc to suggest that it's "m e t a p h o r i c a l"

Without any real evidence for it.
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I have actually shown you 5 quotes about how her powers are purely mental (one of which even comes form herself) that's evidence why her CCC form does not grow to that size. The Beast one is debunked by the fact that her scale is inferior to CCC Kiara which as proven is a mental attack and that none of the material states that she grows to that size.

Meanwhile you have yet to provide a single statement that supports her growing to that size.
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
Or maybe Nasu was talking about her being a being of solar system scale because she literally creates a pocket universe and grows to such a size as shown in the visuals, with absolutely nothing in any text saying that it is metaphorical or purely mental.
Click to expand...
In case you weren't paying attention, the pocket universe exists within her body at all times, and it's filled to the brim with Demon Pillars. So unless you're telling me Kiara can somehow physically go inside her own body, in which case you would need to provide some form of evidence that she can do that (spoilers: there isn't any), you're gonna have to drop that argument.
 
Idk if I should be ashamed for having brought up Kiara or not knowing who and how Matthew acts while KNOWING he does these things despite not knowing anything to do with Fate. (Although tbf, I kinda only brought her up cuz of my talk with Ever outside that just sounded interesting to being up here but seeing what happened...whelp).

This is the kind of ******* shit I never deal with cuz I don't go into other verses and act like I know all about it if I've never even touched a single work of that series. It's also bad if it's someone you can't easily convince them of even if you tell them the actual facts (and trust me, Matt here isn't the only one to try and easily convince with anything Nasu related. I've seen several staff or non's who had to be told of stuff about Masada from ALRF yet they don't get easily convinced or only do so after a while).
 
"I have actually shown you 5 quotes about how her powers are purely mental"

Wrong, it says it has mental properties but it clearly has physical properties as well what with its descriptions for the games, Kiara creating and destroying a pocket universe the size of a solar system, and Nasu's commentaries.

Also I don't know what's the issue with me not being the biggest Nasu fan is considering I share my opinion with Ever who is really knowledgeable on the series.
 
Please point to us on the quotes, where does it say that she creates and destroys a pocket universe and that the pocket universe is the size of a solar system.

Edit: Personally i have no issue with you participating in discussion even if you're not that familiar with the verse. Antagonizing you for it is just being toxic and all it does is paint an elitist picture of the fandom and push people away from the franchise. And hey, even people who are knowledgeable in the series can be wrong sometimes! Case in point, Ever thinks Beast Kiara is Solar System level, that's a prime example right there.
 
@Matt: Yeah says the guy that told Ever to tell me from you to not throw anymore shade at you when you could have at least just went to my wall directly here and say it yourself...

And Ever? Dude the guy started getting into it like half a year ago or something last I checked, and he still needs to know a lot to do with the verse. And I don't rely on just him when it comes to Nasu, there's also Ram who I talk to every now and then that knows just as much if not much more and actually has his sources. Or are you telling me I should keep relying on Ever and not listen to Ram then? Cuz this is the same shit with that one dude with Mondaiji, or some of the peeps that try to get into Masada but just don't even care even someone whose read the OG source shows them text and scans of certain parts of the series.

Edit: Alright look, I'm sorry if I am indeed sounding very antagonizing to you (though I do think not telling me yourself that I should not throw more shade is pretty cowardly...and yes, I'm being more blunt about this). I'm just very concerned that whenever there is a topic that sounds like it is in need of a revision, you just show up and clash with the others which ends up in a circular-like argument that leads to a dead...err standstill? Stalemate? Something like that. And really still, I wouldn't take much of Ever's opinion on this much (although he does help point out stuff like NP ratings and whatnot and some things we talk but not all I would really take for immediately unless I have a second hand opinion here with it, in this case the Kiara bit).
 
Kiara is strong simply because her ability to cause havoc to the mind and soul of anything is unprecedented and unblockable by anything that has intelligence even if they're way stronger than her. In terms of physical might, she admits that she's weaker than Goetia as he's her complete opposite. She's probably above a top-tier servant, but we can rank her as less than Goetia who can destroy the planet and is capable of maintaining a reality marble outside of time with numerous stars inside of them for an unknown period of time.

Her inner universe is pretty much like a reality marble, but it can't be forcibly brought out into the outer world like UBW. Instead, things must be drawn inside of it with her blackhole supergravity.

However, that doesn't mean that she could physically absorb the planet as (Surprise) it's way too big for her. Kiara from Extra CCC could potentially do so because she possesses Kingprotea's ability to grow infinitely. In GO, she had to use Seraphix to attempt to merge with the core of the planet in order to spread her influence.

So if you want my opinion, give her 4-B mindhax due to being comparable in threat to Goetia but in a different way and for being able to canonically pose a threat to Gilgamesh and considered equal to Saver.

Her entire schtick is that she's a walking mindhax. Most things won't be able to touch her, but the things that are able to will absolutely pose a threat to her.
 
So let us all agree with these results. Her noble phantasm results in extreme mindhax that also melts their bodies due to extreme overload.

In terms of strength, she's equal to Saver but will most likely lose because he deleted his sex drive through extreme isolation.
 
It's confusing since NASU is a very weird writer. Not on the scale of people like Masada, but it's still confusing if not explained and compiled properly.

We should make a better explanation page honestly.
 
I was suggesting something to be made like that. Though that's a matter of what it will cover and whether it covers the whole franchise or a particular setting (or better to say, if a page were to explain everything that's made and published by TM or just a particular series from TM like Fate alone).

There could also be multiple blogs for the verses too. Digimon for what I know has that done with several, so that could be arranged in that matter. It's just whether everyone is down to do this idea or not but at some point, some kind of explanation blog or page is needed here.
 
You can't just cover one setting because all of them work on the same concepts. I feel like trying to compile all of that information would be like trying to make a mini wiki due to all the terms that needs to be explained (especially in the case of the Extra world). Plus I doubt anyone (myself included) can explain stuff like Archival Space and the Moon Cell so that It makes sense to people unfamiliar with the Nasuverse.
 
@Monarch Full power Vasavi Shakti destroyed Akhilleus Kosmos atfter overpowering Command Seal Boosted Balmung in 2 Seconds. There is no way Cu Alter would survive that.
 
Monarch Laciel said:
So I'm playing through America and apparently Vasavi Shakti wasn't strong enough to kill Cu Alter???
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A Karna dying of suped up Gae Bolg fired it at the guy with a Grail backup for super regen.
 
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