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Nasuverse Revisions Part 2: Root Scaling
- Thread starter CrimsonStarFallen
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it was changed with him only getting reality warping 1-A (like his profile showed)
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Yeah iirc only Shiki is getting that now, the Greater Grails are “only” getting 1-A Reality Warping.
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Yeah, until now the 1-A scaling of Root are only to things like RW with Greater Grail, a dude with resistance to soul manipulation and a three persons able to a affect that dude (one of them being Shiki so it's actually just two persons). It was said even from the first thread that no one scale physically to the Root aside from Void Shiki, the rest at the most are some minor things.
And about the complains for the 1-A in general, yes, that should be another debate entirely.
No one seems to have problem with the scaling of this thread to the Root, so can this be closed?
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The Greater Grail is not a connection but a means to open a hole through a wall to reach a 1-A thing. With how the tiering system is setup. A wall that blocks a path to the root would also be 1-A. To downgrade that would also mean to downgrade the root.
Hopefully that made sense.
Hopefully that made sense.
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Not sure what is being argued here, but I would need elaboration on this to give any input.
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Yes, and that's precisely why is that it was already argumented various times that the users of True Magic aren't 1-A, each time someone tried to argument that because the source of their power is the Root itself and thus they are 1-A various knowledgeables of the verse rejected that and counterargumented that that isn't the case. The Greater Grail is a exception and all the knowledgeables agreeded that her RW is 1-A.
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That, yes. Tons of people have connections to the Root, but i only rated the Greater Grails as 1-A with Reality Warping due to it, at it's full power, being a hole that leads directly into the Root, and uses that to grant its "omnipotent" wishes.
It is a lot more of a Void Shiki connection than something else entirely.
It is a lot more of a Void Shiki connection than something else entirely.
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I still see the problem that it is a function accomplished by a not so impossible to reproduce ritual, that suddenly makes 'weaker' characters outscale more powerful and capable threats due to a basic connection and blowing out of proportion what the 'punching a hole into the root' means, while also somehow denying any other connection to root as relevant.
Honestly, having Sieg of all characters as the top powers in the setting will on the basis of scaling to something he cannot manipulate will never not be anything but a bad joke, and one of the reasons nobody outside of this community takes the scalings here seriously.
Honestly, having Sieg of all characters as the top powers in the setting will on the basis of scaling to something he cannot manipulate will never not be anything but a bad joke, and one of the reasons nobody outside of this community takes the scalings here seriously.
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Actually I have counters for that but I'm at work so it'll have to wait until late night Chicago time
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I hope it can counter the fact that Salomon's prologue already specifies that the Greater Grail doesn't always need to bore a path to the root to grant wishes or act in any manner.
Scaling all its functions to that just leads to this kind of senseless view that the Fuyuki Grail related characters are the top of verse.
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punching a hole to the root IS a nigh-impossible to reproduce ritual, as it's the whole goal of magus as a whole. Also your argument that they are supposedly "weaker" make no sense, Sieg became part of the greatery grail while Angraa is all the world's evil and fused with the grail,
also, Cater Sieg is the terminal of the grail, the thing you use to access the grail's fuctions, aka there's no reason he should not scale
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My explanation can counter that. In fact, there's more context to what your saying that your missing, and there's also information from other arcs/singularities that explain it
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Can somebody handle this, so I can call our staff please?
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Ant, they are connected to an arctifact that is qute litterally called "Omnipotent" within the serie
The others are scaled a soul that survive dbeing within the already accepted 1-A root, which activelly breaks everything down
it being suspicious is just in your head
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i think that the thing on OP asn't changed except that they don't get every power in the nasuverse only reality warping
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I don't see how it is suspicious or ridiculous so far tho. It's mere scaling.
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Ant, it was already explained to you not even 20 comments ago
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1.) The Greater Grail cannot activate its function that bores a hole to the "Outside of the World/Root" if there is still surviving servants. All 7 servants of the main classes must be sacrificed for this function to work. Here is one example; Justeaze cannot activate her functions because there were only 5 servants sacrificed to her.
2.) Singularity F was not a complete Greater Grail. Saber Altria, and Caster Cu were still alive therefore the Greater Grail's Function cannot activate because they were technically still alive according to the rules of the Holy Grail War.
3.) The Greater Grail is the law that decides how much energy in a dimension is used. You can think of it as the worlds rules. This was stated by Da Vinci. Therefore; We can assume that the Grail decides how much energy someone can use.
4.) This gets reinforced as Caster Giles has his Wish from the Holy Grail by getting rejected.
To Summarize my points;
You can't use Singularity F as a way to guage Tiamat and Goetia. It wasn't a complete Greater Grail, and the Holy Grail War that Solomon was summoned in by Marisbury was also not a complete Greater Grail. Marisbury had no use for the Root, and he didn't want to obtain the Root. + Solomon never went back into the grail therefore he was never registered as being "Dead" in that Holy Grail War.
Lastly, The Holy Grail can determine how much power someone should get, and even out right reject giving someone power.
So trying to scale Tiamat, or anyone else becomes an issue when the only Greater Grails that Chaldea has on record for a comparison of power is Singularity F and some events which aren't complete Greater Grails therefore not 1-A Tier in anything.
hopefully this makes sense and i worded thigns right...
Edit: This is in regards to BlueIce with the "Other characters should scale."
2.) Singularity F was not a complete Greater Grail. Saber Altria, and Caster Cu were still alive therefore the Greater Grail's Function cannot activate because they were technically still alive according to the rules of the Holy Grail War.
3.) The Greater Grail is the law that decides how much energy in a dimension is used. You can think of it as the worlds rules. This was stated by Da Vinci. Therefore; We can assume that the Grail decides how much energy someone can use.
4.) This gets reinforced as Caster Giles has his Wish from the Holy Grail by getting rejected.
To Summarize my points;
You can't use Singularity F as a way to guage Tiamat and Goetia. It wasn't a complete Greater Grail, and the Holy Grail War that Solomon was summoned in by Marisbury was also not a complete Greater Grail. Marisbury had no use for the Root, and he didn't want to obtain the Root. + Solomon never went back into the grail therefore he was never registered as being "Dead" in that Holy Grail War.
Lastly, The Holy Grail can determine how much power someone should get, and even out right reject giving someone power.
So trying to scale Tiamat, or anyone else becomes an issue when the only Greater Grails that Chaldea has on record for a comparison of power is Singularity F and some events which aren't complete Greater Grails therefore not 1-A Tier in anything.
hopefully this makes sense and i worded thigns right...
Edit: This is in regards to BlueIce with the "Other characters should scale."
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The problem with that argument is that all servants get defeated by the point you end the Singularity, and Lev uses the Holy Grail at that point, so the Greater Grail was completed and Chaldea recorded that:
So the later references to the Fuyuki Holy Grail should not be discarded on the basis that it was incomplete. Because it wasn't. It was filled and Lev used it to throw Olga into CHALDEAS. And as your last pic says, the Holy Grail War is still going.
And the one from London is compared to Surtr's energy output while he was still possessing Sigurd:
London:
Lostbelt 2:
Even without that, I'm still iffy on the whole scaling the path making to the Root into all the functions preformed by the Holy Grail on Sieg's case (Iri's wouldn't even be filled when she becomes a servant, so I guess she is discarded under that logic?).
For starters, the process to get a path to the root using the Fuyuki Greater Holy Grail involves using the returning souls of the servants and then using their escaping souls as a way to make the hole larger, and even that it is not an immediate connection the Root (it is still too far). That's a very specific thing that doesn't seem to be replicable with any of its other functions:
The Greater Grail doesn't need to be connected to the root (after using the souls of seven Servants) to use several of its functions, including Wish Granting:
Fate/Zero event:
Salomon (at this point there were only six servant souls in it):
Sieg also doesn't have complete control over it, the control can be wrestled from him (Darnic gets 80% control over it), and he is who is restraining the Grail from granting Amakusa's wish.
Apocrypha's event:
In summary, being the custodian of the Greater Grail doesn't scale to the function of the Fuyuki Greater Grail Ritual to open a hole to the Root. The owner of the Grail use its other functions without it being filled.
But making a path to the Root is what several True Magics entail.
From Heaven's Feel:
From Mahou:
And Marshmallows was making his own path to the Root as well:
FGO - Salomon:
FGO Part 2 - Prologue:
Full power Fuyuki Greater Grail can alter the planet, but so can other characters, who can go even beyond that (Saver altering both the Moon Cell and Earth with Chakravartin, Space Ishtar's Primordial Universe, Goetia affecting ALL timelines in the FGO tree of time, etc.)
Angra Mainyu being born (using the Grail but already outside of it) is a threat on the scale of a Beast (quite literally one that can kickstart the system like Goetia) capable of killing half of humanity from the Heaven's Feel III interview.
All his functions don't scale to the strongest usage of the Grail. His own event is mostly self-contained in the Grail's inner world, in which he even partly loses control of it.
I mean, chocolate making is not exactly the best showing.
Do you know how many beings are called omnipotent in Fate?
For Gilgamesh:
Interview - Heavens Feel II:
For Solomon:
Salomon Singularity:
For Goetia:
Salomon Singularity:
In his mats:
In his mats:
Gets even worse in Part 2 of FGO. Like, it's Zeus' introduction each time he is on scene.
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salter is still alive and singularity F still exist we learn after so should be no for here the rest too lazy to even try to read it lol
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I'll respond to this later when i have time
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Your Salter is the one from Fuyuki. It says so in her materials entry:
Servants can be resummoned and be destroyed, just to be resummoned again. It's quire literally what happens to Jalter in Salter's Quest.
Also, nobody knows why Fuyuki keeps poping up. It was destroyed at the end of it.
Dr. Roman
It's Earth of the past, not the future.
The Fuyuki Singularity was destroyed, thanks to you.
Also Salter was considered dead by Lev.
Cu said that for the Singularity to disappear, but him and Saber needed to be defeated as Mash confirmed:
Accel Zero confirms it was dismantled.
Vlad Quest reaffirms the Grail in Fuyuki was recovered, but for some reason the Singularity is still poping up.
So neither of those points contradict that Mash confirmed the death of Salter and Cu.
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So this is coming down to the Greater Grail scaling basically? The Soul stuff with Roa and Dantes seems to be ok at this point.
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