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NiGHTS 2-B Upgrade

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Except as explained they both make dreams real diferentely, so they can co exist easily since dreams aren't a single thing

Maginary World stores dreams as aspirations, Nighttopia doesn't, so both can co exist since they only have their base as the same but not the rest, you are overcomplicanting It

Plus this whole cannon talk is taking away from the main topic of 2-B Nights if I didn't knew better I would say you only care about Sonic scaling from this instead of Nights ovo

So they can easily co exist because both of them make dreams real but with a diferent purpose, Sonic makes dreams(aspirations) real and Nights makes dreams(what you actualy dream) real, so there's no contradiction
 
I care about my job as an Admin, as well as my duties as an Audit group member. Would be saying the same thing about the proposal regardless of whether or not Sonic was involved.
 
There is a reason why it was on strike through... plus you can't say the same thing if Sonic wasn't in it when most of your comments were about Nights being canon to Sonic ovo
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
That would be asking me to prove a negative. One-sided Crossovers and canonicities are a thing. Other examples are Dante (Shin Megami Tensei) being canon to SMT but not the same Dante from DMC despite having multiple origin story similarities. The various Dr Slump characters appear to be canon to Dragon Ball, but none of them are considered the same Dr Slump characters from Dr Slump. Not using different verse comparisons as an example, just explaining that alternate canons are a thing and having more interaction doesn't always stop them from being cameos.

Not the point. These aren't just generic factories, these are locations connect the entirety of the verse. I'm not over-complicating anything, just staying true to the guidelines. We can't have two people who literally have "All the money in the world" because the other would not have a single penny left if one person did. That would be a better comparison.
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Except it's clear that's not our Dante, it's consistent Nights comes from Nights Into Dreams Which either Sonic comes to Nights Or Nights Appears In Sonic, Both Series recognizes Eachother, DMC doesn't even reference Shin Megami Tensei. These Factories are both described as having similar qualities and quantities, I don't even understand how this isn't short of red herring. Even if we say you're right that still doesn't Debunk Sonic And Nights Being In The Same Verse.
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
The problem is, if one factory is literally stated to have created every single product of something in existence as well as containing every single one of them in their possession, then a second company can't also at the same time be the one that created every single copy of that same thing in existence and has each and everyone in existence at the same time. Neither one would be stated to have contain "Every single dream" if that was the case.
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Nights Into Dreams And Sonic The Hedgehog belongs to Sonic Team and SEGA, like you you're not understanding this at all. Both Factories can have all of a certain possession and you're questioning the unnecessary to split from the relevancy it holds to the main argument, both Maginaryworld And Nights Into Dreams have all dreams, it's as simple as that there's no evidence otherwise, all means all, period.
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
It doesn't really matter how many people approve it, but yes there does need to be general staff approval; whether it be from Discussion Mods, Admins, or Bureaucrats.

Also, looking at the scans. I haven't really found any evidence of the Dream Worlds being universes. I didn't hear the word "Parallel Realities" and them requiring portals to travel from one to the other doesn't automatically make them different universes without more context.

Furthermore, being playable in the spin offs doesn't automatically make them canon. Link is playable in Mario Kart 8 Deluxe, but that doesn't make Zelda and Mario in the same canon. And the Donkey Kong example is very different; they were in the same video game from the very beginning in which has since made canon for both their future games. Or even interacting with them isn't really enough; has Nights ever had a bigger involvement in the story/lore rather than just a brief interaction? Cameos for characters of the same creators are very common, but that doesn't always make them part of the same verse. It might be more of a similar case to how Dr Slump and Dragon Ball are different canons.
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The scans should provide plenty of evidence regarding the separate dream worlds being parallel realities. Besides only being accessible through portals linked to one separate dimension, that being the Dream Gate, Wizeman's world is also another example. Wizeman's reality shares the same basic structure as every other dream world in NiGHTS, that being a separate entity from any other dream. The proof of this is that Wizeman was a Visitor and his separate nightmare reality was his nightmare world. Wizeman's world was created in the same way as any other dream world and nightmare world, and it's a separate reality from anything else.

Also, not hearing "parallel realities" doesn't disprove that these are parallel realities when the way Wizeman's world works proves that that's how these worlds function. So no, there's plenty of context to prove that the use of portals being the only method to travel between the dreams is proof of them being separate realities. Not to mention them being referred to numerous times as "separate worlds" in the sources I've been providing.

And no, being playable in spinoffs is plenty proof that NiGHTS is canon to the Sonic universe, especially when those same spinoffs are canon. He makes too many appearances, consistently even. Him being playable in Zero Gravity is just icing on the cake in that regard. And using Link and Zelda as an example against NiGHTS is extremely faulty. NiGHTS consistently appears in Sonic media, and Sonic has in NiGHTS. The same can't be said for Mario and Link. Link hardly appears in the flesh in Mario. And yes. He's had a bigger role in the story than just a quick little interaction. Again: in Zero Gravity (a canon Sonic game) he's literally playable, and in Lost World he saves Sonic from a nightmare at the hands of Wizeman. So yes, he's also had greater interactions than just "small interactions".

And also, to comment on your arguments about Sonic Shuffle and NiGHTS's dream worlds not being compatible is not at all a decent argument, really. With the way the two worlds function differently, there's no reason they can't coexist. One forms dreams through aspirations and the other through simply dreaming strongly enough. With the different way they work, there's plenty of ways that both can coexist.
 
NiGHTS's scaling to other characters would have to come from Shuffle, where he's interchangeable with Lumina Flowlight. In terms of his own in-series feats, we should just wait for some staff members to join in and decide they agree.
 
I agree that the focus should be on Nights before suggesting some cross scaling between verses. But anyway, I still literally see no statement that describes individual dream worlds as universes or "alternate realities". Them requiring portals to travel would prove that they're different bodies of space, but not proof that they have different timelines. And I do agree that there should be input from other staff members before doing anything.
 
@Medeus

You can ask a few other administrators and discussion moderators for help if you wish.
 
Just because it doesn't directely say universe nor reality doesn't mean it isn't one, context and implications exist, but I won't go into it deeper because I wasn't the one who had the idea and I do agree to get more people here
 
"Nightopians are carefree, happy inhabitants of Nightopia. They're born every time balls of light (called Ideya) collide. The sole reason for their existence is to have fun. Because they are incapable of doing anything else, they have no need to work together or to cooperate towards a common goal. As a result, they have no leader, and no language. What they do have, is the ability to see the consciousness of each visitor (dreamers from our world), through Ideya. When visitors arrive, the Nightopians can see their consciousness and recreate the happy world that is hidden deep inside. They're why Nightopians, who don't have the capacity for intelligent thought, can sing, dance, and even go fishing."

- from the game's website

The term world(s) looks here its used to mean their universe, seeing as how the backgrounds for the individual dreams are of cosmic proportions and not just a "planet".

https://youtu.be/eFxH6-g8FGQ?t=556

Lost World sonic actually goes to NIGHTS world so yeah, that's my take on it.
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
I agree that the focus should be on Nights before suggesting some cross scaling between verses. But anyway, I still literally see no statement that describes individual dream worlds as universes or "alternate realities". Them requiring portals to travel would prove that they're different bodies of space, but not proof that they have different timelines. And I do agree that there should be input from other staff members before doing anything.
Click to expand...
And you're ignoring the fact that I pointed out they're separate realities as confirmed by Wizeman's world being it's own separate reality from all the other nightmares. Wizeman's world is no different from any other nightmare besides that's where he takes up residence, as it's the world he dreamed up when he came simply as a Visitor, which I already supported with a link in a previous reply that either went skimmed or ignored. So combine that with what Mephistus said above (that being that it refers to our universe as a world and that the backgrounds for each separate world are also different on a cosmic scale) and there's really no point to keep on denying that the use of the word "world" here means universe.
 
I agree with upgrading NiGHTS. The Sonic stuff can be discussed elsewhere, I don't want to see another thread swollen with too many things.
 
Being called "Worlds" or "Entire Worlds" isn't enough for them to be entire universes. We've had multiple discussions about that for multiple verses. It was one of the reasons Castlevania is no longer 2-C. Being much larger than a planet or containing starry skies are also not proof of them being entire universes. The "Worlds" in Castlevania were stated to be entire Quantum spaces, but weren't excepted as universes due to not using the words Universe or "Alternate Reality".

And using a dictionary definition doesn't really help much either.
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
Being called "Worlds" or "Entire Worlds" isn't enough for them to be entire universes. We've had multiple discussions about that for multiple verses. It was one of the reasons Castlevania is no longer 2-C. Being much larger than a planet or containing starry skies are also not proof of them being entire universes.
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Except we know they're separate realities with entire cosmos, and by the very definition of world within this context, it can only mean a universe as one of the very definitions of world is the material universe, which, again, would only make sense when there's entire cosmos seen in the background of the different dreams. So we have context to narrow down the definition here as well as the statements and lore backing it all up, Wizeman's world being a separate reality and the Dream Gate being further proof.
 
In Narnia, the different "Worlds" actually are shown to have different timelines (Such as the fact that the real world was completely frozen in time when the Pevensie Children entered Narnia, and that spending a whole year in that same world caused 1300 years to pass in Narnia.) Here, all I'm seeing is just "They're stated to be worlds and world means Universe" without more elaborate context. They either need to be stated to be universes and/or alternate realities, or have showings of space-time working differently. Being called "Worlds" or "Dimensions" isn't enough to call them universes. Context literally matters and worlds can't be assumed to be universes without more context. And "Material Universe" doesn't even mean they have different timelines.

I will ask a few more staff members about this however.
 
Reposting

It doesn't need to be directely called at all, context exists, this is seeming like a argument from ignorance tbh, if there's no proof of them not being universes outside of analogies from other franchises, there's not much to discuss except of ad nauseum

Ok go do that
 
In agreement with Theuser789. The only arguments against 2-B NiGHTS are taking examples from different franchises, and there's already plenty of context to narrow each dream down as a separate universe.

  • They're referred to as worlds.
  • With differing cosmos in each dream's backdrop, the context of world can only mean the material universe, as it is one of the literal definitions of a world.
With spanning cosmos in each different dream, and each different dream being completely separate as proven thanks to Wizeman's world being a dream in of itself due to him being a Visitor, there's no more reason to keep saying "we need more context". There's already plenty of context thanks to Wizeman's world as an example and one of the very definitions of world (material universe) being the only definition of world that fits here.
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
I obviously disagree with this it's just yet another assumption that worlds = universes with absolute 0 backing.
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Again, saying this has "no backing" is just wrong. Already proved they're separate worlds through my Wizeman example, debunking Medeus's original point that they could be connected. And the context is there already; you can clearly see cosmos in the background, which means the only definition of world anything described here would fit under is the definition of the world being the material universe. Nitpicking the definition of "world" when there's clear context is just heedless.
 
Also, just a minor note, "Material Universe" would only include all physical matter and not Space-Time. Meaning that would be an argument against the idea that the Dream Worlds are different timelines if we're going to go by the "Material Universe" definition. And even "Existing separately" doesn't equate to them being different timelines.

And we are not knit picking, we are clarifying that actual context.
 
If they are separated and each has time in it then it is space and time, pretty sure the default in the wikia is low 2-C anyways for cases like this, unless you want to say that place doesn't have time

Buurden of proof is on you to prove they have the same time even while existing separately when it goes against Occam's razor
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
Also, just a minor note, "Material Universe" would only include all physical matter and not Space-Time. Meaning that would be an argument against the idea that the Dream Worlds are different timelines if we're going to go by the "Material Universe" definition. And even "Existing separately" doesn't equate to them being different timelines.
And we are not knit picking, we are clarifying that actual context.
Click to expand...
Why would the dream worlds would only have space in them rather than space and time? I mean, even if there's no time in the dream worlds, how base Sonic characters could move when time literally don't exist?

Also, I might got your intention wrong and you don't actually mean that these places lack time completely. Correct me if I did got it wrong
 
Not that they lacked time, simply that they're different bodies of space contained in a single timeline. That's what I meant; that there's not proof the dream worlds are alternate timelines based on what I've been given.
 
I was going to land some opinion here as I'm the guy who downgraded straight up 3-A NiGHTS, but I just feel overwhelmed by all the stuff needed to be shown for this to be legit. I can't disagree with this, but I'll say that it looks unreliable.
 
^Agreed.

Unless someone can find a reason to show they all share the same time, there's no reason to otherwise other than deliberate lowballing. Them being separate worlds on a spatial level should mean by default that they also be separate on a temporal level unless otherwise stated, as that's the wiki's default. Correct me if I'm wrong on that last part.

(And them being separate on a spatial level shouldn't even be a debate still, cuz again, Wizeman's world is a separate space from everything else and it's a simple dream like every other world in NiGHTS)
 
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