Ninjago DR S2 Update

[Lloydblitzed]

So DR S2 part 2 got released and some profiles should get updates and new keys, as well a new Multiplier. Also have to mention the tiering for all characters (except Jay and Mr Pale) mentionned here should not be changed, rather just scale higher into their tier

1. Shatterspin Multiplier
Inside an official Lego Ninjago Magazine, it was stated that Shatterspin boost one's power tenfold (so 10x). Obviously, it should scale to Wolf Mask Warriors, but also to Cinder, who was stated in the same page to be also affected by the 10x boost given by the Gong of Shattering. This is further supported by the fact Shatterspin was stated to be stronger then the Ninjas' Spinjitzu, something made evident in the show. This boost should thus apply to all Shatterspin/Gong of Shattering users (Cinder, Nokt, Jay)

2. Nokt new keys and scaling
So after part 2, I think we should seperate Nokt's scaling into 3 keys: Post Releasement, Tournament of the Source (From when he starts getting new powers) and All Elemental Powers (For the last 2 episodes of DR S2). I made a Blog containing all his new feats (Everything else in his page is different except the summary part):

Updated Nokt Page | Older/Current Nokt Page

This would also scale to Kai and Zane with Rising Dragon Technique, who would also scale to his last key due to being able to press him (for Kai) and knock him down (For RDT Zane)
3. Mr.Pale and Jay's new keys and scaling
Mr. Pale was fighting on par with Lloyd and trading blows, which should give him a Universal+ rating under a new key called Dragon Rising (He also implied he was training for all those years, so it would make sense for him to upscale this high). Jay should also get a Universal+ under a new key called Evil Jay, as he was able to harm a Base Nya. His element was also capable of harming Nokt throught Nya, so this could scale to him too

4. Elemental Masters new keys and scaling
So after the last part 2, its should be pretty evident the Elemental Masters would scale at least on the same tier as the Ninjas. In a powerless stated, they were shown to be reletive to Wolf Mask Warriors, being able to harm them just like they could harm the powerless EMs. Those same Wolf Mask Warriors can beat up a Red Form amped Ras and knock him away, as well as cutting off attacks from DR S2 part 1 Wyldfyre and Kai. Overall, Wolf Mask Warrior's related feats should be added in the following profiles with a Tournament of Sources key which get a Universal+ rating:

Mr Pale, Neuro, Chamille, Wyldfyre, Tox, Zur, Sora, Lloyd and any future EM profile from DR S2

5. Sora, Lloyd, Cinder, Nya and Ras new keys and scaling
Let's just make it short here. Here are the updated profiles of these chars with their new feats (A new key (Tournament of the Source or Red Form) with their feats/abilities was added in the updated ver.) Everything new is underlined for easier revision
Updated Nya Page | Older/Current Nya page

Updated Lloyd Page | Older/Current Lloyd page

Updated Ras Page | Older/Current Ras page

Updated Sora Page | Older/Current Sora page

Updated Cinder Page | Older/Current Cinder Page

6. Infinite Attack Speed for SDP Lloyd and the Source Dragons
In DR S1 ep 20, Lloyd was able to generate an omnidirectionnal blast that reached the entire Multiverse (In order to save it from destruction). We know for a fact the Multiverse is Infinite in size due to all Realms being parallel to Ninjago, which is an infinite Universe. This would grant SDP Lloyd Infinite Attack Speed, but it would also scale to the Source Dragon as this feat was produced using their powers

Agree: @Minaaaa (Neutral on Infinite Speed) @TheOrangeGuy09, @DarkDragonMedeus @REX9097 @Aolphl (Neutral on Inf Speed. Agree with everything else) @Theglassman12 (Neutral on Infinite Attack Speed. Agree with the rest) @ActuallySpaceMan42 (Agree with everything. Thinks Infinite Speed should only scale to the specific attack)
Disagree:
Neutral: @Mr. Bambu (Neutral on Infinite Attack Speed. Didn't reply on the other points yet)

 

[Lloydblitzed]

Hopefully that doesn't look to long

 

[Minaaaa]

looks good. neutral on 6 tho

 

[Lloydblitzed]

looks good. neutral on 6 tho

Alright, Counted

 

[Lloydblitzed]

looks good. neutral on 6 tho

Would "possibly Infinite Speed" be better?

 

[Minaaaa]

Looks more like range to me but I'll wait for other's responses

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

I share same thoughts as Minaaaa. Do we have a proof that this blast covered everything?

 

[Lloydblitzed]

I share same thoughts as Minaaaa. Do we have a proof that this blast covered everything?

Well we know the Mergequake Storm was affecting all of reality, so the blast should've covered that range to stop everything

 

[Lloydblitzed]

MK also got a "possibly Infinite speed" rating for performing something similar

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

It’s good then. Although not really combat-applicable

 

[Lloydblitzed]

It’s good then. Although not really combat-applicable

It probably woudn't for Lloyd but it would for the Source Dragons

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Why?

 

[Lloydblitzed]

Why?

Cuz they wouldn't need Dragon Cores to perform the feat

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Eh, my reason for it being non-combat applicable was that it essentially harms no-one tbh.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I remember a discussion where covering infinite sized universes would be infinite attack speed.

Anyway, this looks good to me.

 

[Lloydblitzed]

I remember a discussion where covering infinite sized universes would be infinite attack speed.

Anyway, this looks good to me.

Alright, counted

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I remember a discussion where covering infinite sized universes would be infinite attack speed.

Anyway, this looks good to me.

Yeah, but we can see that it isn't infinite attack speed. We can see the non-infinite speed of its movement.

 

[Lloydblitzed]

Yeah, but we can see that it isn't infinite attack speed. We can see the non-infinite speed of its movement.

Huh? Wydm?

 

[Mr. Bambu]

You link a video of the feat.

This video shows that omnidirectional blast moving. Only it isn't moving with infinite speed, otherwise there would be no time from point A to point B, it would simply be there. Infinite speed means achieving any distance instantly. We can see other objects moving on screen. Very fast, judging by the video, but not infinite.

 

[Lloydblitzed]

You link a video of the feat.

This video shows that omnidirectional blast moving. Only it isn't moving with infinite speed, otherwise there would be no time from point A to point B, it would simply be there. Infinite speed means achieving any distance instantly. We can see other objects moving on screen. Very fast, judging by the video, but not infinite.

So it would be MFTL+ or something instead?

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Dunno, would need calc'd. The video there alone makes it difficult to tell the speed, since the objects themselves don't have any set speed and the characters aren't moving much (in watchframebyframe, one of them moves their hand like... once, so I reckon it is faster than them, at least?)

 

[Lloydblitzed]

Dunno, would need calc'd. The video there alone makes it difficult to tell the speed, since the objects themselves don't have any set speed and the characters aren't moving much (in watchframebyframe, one of them moves their hand like... once, so I reckon it is faster than them, at least?)

Would it be right to calc its speed using the distance of the observable Universe as the distance the blast crossed?

 

[Mr. Bambu]

The problem with that is you need the speed it took to get there, and the video provided (brief though it is) certainly doesn't give that. The on-screen speed is not desirable because without something to compare to, it will yield extremely low results- probably only comparable to a real life explosion, if that.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Also, your OP needs to list out the specific changes being made- linking the blogs is more convenient but you need an actual changelog of proposals, of sorts.

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

You link a video of the feat.

This video shows that omnidirectional blast moving. Only it isn't moving with infinite speed, otherwise there would be no time from point A to point B, it would simply be there. Infinite speed means achieving any distance instantly. We can see other objects moving on screen. Very fast, judging by the video, but not infinite.

I mean, cinematic time exists? How is the viewer supposed to see what’s happening? Infinite speed is also moving infinite amount of distance in finite time.

 

[Lloydblitzed]

Also, your OP needs to list out the specific changes being made- linking the blogs is more convenient but you need an actual changelog of proposals, of sorts.

Nokt and Cinder got the multiplier added to their shatterspin based keys, and the new changes for Lloyd, Sora and Nya are basically every new feats related to the new keys. Ras gets a new key and new feats for both keys. Mr. Pale gets a new key that upscales from Lloyd, Jay gets a new key upscaling from Nya, Wyldfyre and the other EMs cited will all scale to the Wolf Mask Warriors using feats pointing in point 4

The problem with that is you need the speed it took to get there, and the video provided (brief though it is) certainly doesn't give that. The on-screen speed is not desirable because without something to compare to, it will yield extremely low results- probably only comparable to a real life explosion, if that.

I mean, I've seen some profiles gain infinite speed due to travelling infinite spaces even if they didn't do it instanly on screen, like with Sakuya and Sonic

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I mean, cinematic time exists? How is the viewer supposed to see what’s happening? Infinite speed is also moving infinite amount of distance in finite time.

That's true, it cannot be "no time", because at that point T = 0 and you get Immeasurable. However, it would appear at the end point instantly. That is the definition of infinite. Because we can see that it isn't moving to any point instantly, it isn't infinite speed. It may presumably progress across realms, as a property of the ability rather than by speed- I don't contest that this may envelop the multiverse or whatever. Just that it isn't attacking at infinite speed, given the counter-feat inherent to it.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I mean, I've seen some profiles gain infinite speed due to travelling infinite spaces even if they didn't do it instanly on screen, like with Sakuya and Sonic

Dunno about those cases, may be that I'd point out that they're wrong too, may be that I wouldn't. If this is a thing, I believe it to be in error, and maybe should get a thread to discuss it, if this is a more widespread issue than just here.

Hm.

 

[ByArrow]

You link a video of the feat.

This video shows that omnidirectional blast moving. Only it isn't moving with infinite speed, otherwise there would be no time from point A to point B, it would simply be there. Infinite speed means achieving any distance instantly. We can see other objects moving on screen. Very fast, judging by the video, but not infinite.

Moving from point A to point B in no time would be immeasurable. Infinite speed means that you can cover an infinite distance in 0 or finite time. Whether it takes 1 second or billions of years, it will still be infinite speed because it is traveling an infinite distance in a finite time.

They can also perform an infinite number of actions or travel infinite distance within a finite amount of time.

And this is explained on the Speed page.

 

[Lloydblitzed]

However, it would appear at the end point instantly. That is the definition of infinite. Because we can see that it isn't moving to any point instantly, it isn't infinite speed. It may presumably progress across realms, as a property of the ability rather than by speed- I don't contest that this may envelop the multiverse or whatever. Just that it isn't attacking at infinite speed, given the counter-feat inherent to it.

Seems like crossing a infinite distance in finite time would also qualify, as Lucifer obtained infinite speed for the same reason, same for another version of Sonic, Helios, Reimu, Xehanort and more dudes

Is the other points fine tho?

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Moving from point A to point B in no time would be immeasurable. Infinite speed means that you can cover an infinite distance in 0 or finite time. Whether it takes 1 second or billions of years, it will still be infinite speed because it is traveling an infinite distance in a finite time.

And this is explained on the Speed page.

The issue is moreso the fact that other things move on-screen in relation to the thing.

Hypothetical, this wave is moving at X speed but is being outpaced by a racecar. The same context applies, it is said to be encompassing the multiverse or what have you, and it appears to be doing so, but it is most certainly being outpaced by this racecar, which has a known speed (let's say 110 m/s). That would be a direct anti-feat to the notion of infinite speed- it is in fact slower than something with finite speed.

So this appears to be an issue that needs ironed out.

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

That's true, it cannot be "no time", because at that point T = 0 and you get Immeasurable.

If Time = 0, then it isn’t Immeasurable. Speed page says:

The difference between infinite and immeasurable is that the former can go everywhere in zero time, whereas the latter can go everywhere and everywhen faster than in zero time.

However, it would appear at the end point instantly. That is the definition of infinite. Because we can see that it isn't moving to any point instantly, it isn't infinite speed. It may presumably progress across realms, as a property of the ability rather than by speed- I don't contest that this may envelop the multiverse or whatever. Just that it isn't attacking at infinite speed, given the counter-feat inherent to it.

The problem is: by that logic all of people moving at, for example, FTL, should fight at extremely high speeds but fights don’t end in 0.00000000001 seconds in fiction. As Cinematic Time page says:

Cinematic time generally does not equal the time passing in the story. Often, it passes at different speeds as the time in the story or completely leaves out time-frames. That is done for various reasons, such as making movements which should technically be indistinguishable to the naked eye, visible to the viewer. It could also be used to fix narrative pacing so that displays of very long time periods don't get extremely boring.

The whole point was that this omnidirectional blast stabilizes all of the Merged Realms and was stated by Zane to affect all of reality (Lloydblitzed sent the scan), so it is pretty much Infinite Attack Speed, we can see it moving “slowly” just like we can see Ninjas (who are currently rated at FTL) fight at normal speeds. Or, let me say other examples, we can see Pinkie Pie in fights in MLP despite her combat speed being ranked as Infinite, or the entirety of timeline being sucked in and Frisk outrunning it despite this being rated as Immeasurable Speed. It’s just for viewer to see.

 

[Lloydblitzed]

Hypothetical, this wave is moving at X speed but is being outpaced by a racecar. The same context applies, it is said to be encompassing the multiverse or what have you, and it appears to be doing so, but it is most certainly being outpaced by this racecar, which has a known speed (let's say 110 m/s). That would be a direct anti-feat to the notion of infinite speed- it is in fact slower than something with finite speed.

There's no racecar in the full scene

 

[Lloydblitzed]

The whole point was that this omnidirectional blast stabilize all of the Merged Realms and was stated by Zane to affect all of reality (Lloydblitzed sent the scan), so it is pretty much Infinite Attack Speed, we can see it moving “slowly” just like we can see Ninjas (who are currently rated at FTL) fight at normal speeds. Or, let me say other examples, we can see Pinkie Pie in fights in MLP despite her combat speed being ranked as Infinite, or the entirety of timeline being sucked in and Frisk outrunning it despite this being rated as Immeasurable Speed. It’s just for viewer to see.

Not to mention the speed feat itself only scale to 2 characters in the verse, including the strongest one of them all who should be vastly above the main cast in speed

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Not to mention the speed feat itself only scale to 2 characters in the verse, including the strongest one of them all who should be vastly above the main cast in speed

Yeah, and considering there are no direct anti-feats as well, it’s not really an outlier, so should be solid.

 

[Lloydblitzed]

Yeah, and considering there are no direct anti-feats as well, it’s not really an outlier, so should be solid.

Ye, its technically a feat they did twice in the show

 

[Mr. Bambu]

There's no racecar in the full scene

You may not recognize what "hypothetical" means.

A hypothetical is an instance that is not true, but is used to demonstrate an issue in discussion. In this case, I provide something with a known speed to be moving in comparison to this explosion, such as a racecar, rather than something with an unknown speed, such as knocked around barrels and such.

More on the actual current thread, rather than the issues inherent to the system, then, if hypotheticals are not to be understood. The letter of the rule as it stands would not support this scaling to characters in general, mind, as it is explicitly something they would need to perform in comparison to. Only this ability would be rated as Infinite in speed, not the character themselves.

Or, at least you would need to provide evidence of them moving consistently in comparison to infinite speed attacks/things. See here:

When it comes to scaling such speed to other attacks or characters a high amount of scrutiny is necessary. Often these speeds don't scale to any regular attack or other characters. Fictions tend to prove this fact by the attacks and/or movement of characters not starting and finishing simultanously, even if the characters are moving a finite distance, despite the fact that this should be the case for infinitely fast characters. Generally, to scale such speed feats to characters or other attacks the verse needs to provide solid evidence for it and consistently portray the character/attack and those that scale as moving that fast.

So whether I make a thread or not, the scaling is technically outside the written letter of the rule, and I personally find it to be outside the spirit of the rule due to its presentation of other things moving comparable to it.

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

The letter of the rule as it stands would not support this scaling to characters in general, mind, as it is explicitly something they would need to perform in comparison to. Only this ability would be rated as Infinite in speed, not the character themselves.

Or, at least you would need to provide evidence of them moving consistently in comparison to infinite speed attacks/things.

This would grant SDP Lloyd Infinite Attack Speed, but it would also scale to the Source Dragon as this feat was produced using their powers

I am very, very sure that the argument was always about it being just Infinite ATTACK speed and never scaling to characters themselves.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Well, yes, but the letter of the rule still covers that. It cannot scale without some demonstration of actually being comparable.

 

[Lloydblitzed]

You may not recognize what "hypothetical" means.

A hypothetical is an instance that is not true, but is used to demonstrate an issue in discussion. In this case, I provide something with a known speed to be moving in comparison to this explosion, such as a racecar, rather than something with an unknown speed, such as knocked around barrels and such.

Are the other points of the CRT okay tho?

More on the actual current thread, rather than the issues inherent to the system, then, if hypotheticals are not to be understood. The letter of the rule as it stands would not support this scaling to characters in general, mind, as it is explicitly something they would need to perform in comparison to. Only this ability would be rated as Infinite in speed, not the character themselves.

Or, at least you would need to provide evidence of them moving consistently in comparison to infinite speed attacks/things. See here:

The feat was done twice, the first time by the FSM using the same cores, 2nd time being Lloyd. Also, we saw the Mergequake Storm (the same thing Lloyd's wave stopped)) being comparable to SDP Lloyd's attack speed by producing a similar speed feat by covering the Multiverse

Also, one character's Attack Speed can be far above their other speed cats. Im saying it only scale to their Attack Speed via the specific Cora attack:

The speed at which an attack moves. For example, X character is hypersonic, but he can do an attack that is a natural beam of light, the speed for the attack is different from the speed of the user, hence the attack would be lightspeed even if its user isn't.