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Nonduality or Transduality for The Primordial - God of war
- Thread starter Fixxed
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That one even we know is fake. And we don't use it so....??????
There's like what, 2 scans from Temple of Helios relevant to site scaling? And both of them are only used cause they corroborate information confirmed in-game.
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peak derailing
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We can... for the ones we use. That's, that's literally why we don't use all of the "scans" floating around and get idk, 1-B GoW.
But eh, issues can be sorted in their own thread if you want. I just find it baffling that in every revision this verse has, the rebuttals are "but this accepted thing from 2 years ago is wrong!".
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The baffling thing is, this is the second time this has happened.
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I guess it's to be expected when the foundation of a lot of it is going to seem sketchy to other people. I wouldn't really call it derailing though given that the OP is based on this very concept. Like, that's pretty central to the discussion at hand.
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I'm talking about the random derailment not how much the verse seems "shaky" to other people. It's God of War, it'll always have that sort of "well askhually.." nonsense. I live with that.
Have issues with X? Make a revision thread. Or ask on the discussion thread. Or ask a supporter privately. This is the second time you've shown up on a God of War thread with an issue barely related to it, it's frankly quite tiring.
Also foundation is very generous, it's 1 scan.
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We've veered off of the Morpheus scan since the first page. The member you quoted to agree with, walked back his stance and said we wouldn't need that scan.
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It's not as though God of War is receiving extra scrutiny that other verses do not.
I was asked to the thread, my mentioning of the website scans was in response to something another user said. I think you're being overdramatic.
What scan is being used instead?
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I'm referring to contrivance of discussion, not scrutiny. I welcome the latter it makes my indexing solid. I disdain the former, it's a waste of time.
There's a difference in making sure statements are backed and having such hard hitting discourse as "the stars in the sky could be fake!".
But I digress, that's mostly an issue the verse has with perception rather than actual evaluation. The wiki is quite alright in that regard.
I'm pointing out that it isn't the core of the discussion and hadn't been for a while (and getting into the nitty gritty is best left for another thread). That ain't melodrama but honestly, take it as you will.
That's the thing. The thread's been focused for a while now on whether predating dualities qualifies and at what point is a duality qualifying and self evident. Then we were waiting for staff confirmation on the new standards.
It's not a "X scan is right, Y scan is wrong" like the most civil DC discussion.
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Well sure, but there's also a big difference between "the stars in the sky could be fake" and "these screenshots of a now non-existent, unarchived browser game made as promo material for a 2008 PSP game could be fake, and we in-fact explicitly recognize multiple of them as being faked."
Based on the discussion we had about this subject with regard to the Overvoid, Type 1 Nonduality can be accomplished by being outside duality/logical systems, but generally we do not think of something like "fire and water" as a duality but rather "fire and not fire." Though it depends on how the verse treats it.
However, if the thread has changed focused, is it still an attempt to give Morpheus non-duality and Primordials transduality? In which case, if the OP scan is not being used, what is the basis for the change now?
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Quite the framing but eh, sure.
The discussionis giving the Primordials generallg Nonduality. No one her is getting Transduality or being argued for that.
The Primordials predate all the aspects of reality their responsible for. So, aside from that whole Morpheus stuff, the discussion was whether existing before and outside of the aspects of reality like space, time, life, death, dreams, reality/"the heavens" (seeing as the mortal universe is treated as an opposite mirror to dreams and imagination), etc. would qualify for it.
We were waiting on the relevant admins to confirm that.
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My intuition is to think that predating a concept that one governs isn't per se connected to the notion of transduality/nonduality, but Ultima is looking it over. His stance (based purely on the hypothetical I proposed based on what you told me) was that if they birthed a duality then they could be considered non-dual at least for that duality. I explained that we're more talking about them predating the concepts they govern (and, per your assertion, also predate the concepts all the others primordials govern) and he said he'd take a look.
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predating a duality would qualify for independence, for reasons stated earlier
Georredannea15
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The reason why fire and water are not a duality is because they are not fundamentally opposites, so if I were to give an example of an "opposite," it would be light and darkness.
It's like "where there is light, there is no darkness, where there is darkness, there is no light", this is a simple example of duality.
Or in another example, it is existence/non-existence.
Where there is existence, there is no "non-existence", and where there is non-existence, there is no sign of existence. This is simply what we call duality.
The simultaneous "fire and non-fire" you mentioned is just a case of truth, so it's kind of like "being A and same time not being A", and if you get transcends multiple truth cases like that, it becomes type 3, but the current discussion is not type 3, no.
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Tbh though I think this thread should be postponed until nonduality standards are more clear.
Georredannea15
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It's already over. The 6-page thread was finished yesterday.
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There was a follow up thread AFAIK https://vsbattles.com/threads/transduality-nonduality-application-staff-only.155165/
Georredannea15
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These were the continuation of the previous topic, that is, when there was only "non-duality", but now it has separate to Transduality and non-duality, there is no problem anymore. All we need are exemplary characters for non-duality. That's the only problem currently.
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Given my lack of knowledge on the verse, I can't fully say I understand what the evidence provided is contextually referencing. But I guess I can still give my opinion on the idea of these characters having Nonduality or Transduality.
If it's actually stated or shown that these characters predate and exist independently from dualities like light (the absence of dark) and darkness (the absence of light) than I can agree with them having Nonduality. This wasn't actually evidenced in the OP itself but rather is seemingly already known and accepted on the wiki, that these collection of people predate and independently exist from the concepts they embody. So I can't really say I actually agree with this being true or not, at least until evidence of this being true is provided.
As for the Morpheus scan of him ensuring the balance between "light and darkness" is kept in place and untouched. I'm not that convinced of this "light and darkness" being in reference to concepts rather than the representations of dual adversaries. It seems like that "light" in this situation is Apollo's representation of the sun while "darkness" is referencing Nyx, the goddess of darkness and night unto itself. How I'm interpreting this is that Morpheus, as the incarnate of dreams, keeps these two characters from waring against one another, which would be him ensuring the balance between "light" (Apollo) and "darkness" (Nyx) isn't disrupted either way.
The scan goes on to explain that there are rumors that Morpheus has planned on the overthrowing of the gods and the consumption of the other dimension, he desires to cause the "illuminating light" that exudes across the entire dimension to disappear. I infer from this is that the stated "illuminating light" is another way to explain Apollo as he's the representation of the sun who controls the light of Helios, which exudes across the entire dimension.
So all in all, I can possibly agree with the former being Nonduality depending on the context while I disagree with the latter being Nonduality until further expansion about Apollo and Nyx's representations are provided.
If it's actually stated or shown that these characters predate and exist independently from dualities like light (the absence of dark) and darkness (the absence of light) than I can agree with them having Nonduality. This wasn't actually evidenced in the OP itself but rather is seemingly already known and accepted on the wiki, that these collection of people predate and independently exist from the concepts they embody. So I can't really say I actually agree with this being true or not, at least until evidence of this being true is provided.
As for the Morpheus scan of him ensuring the balance between "light and darkness" is kept in place and untouched. I'm not that convinced of this "light and darkness" being in reference to concepts rather than the representations of dual adversaries. It seems like that "light" in this situation is Apollo's representation of the sun while "darkness" is referencing Nyx, the goddess of darkness and night unto itself. How I'm interpreting this is that Morpheus, as the incarnate of dreams, keeps these two characters from waring against one another, which would be him ensuring the balance between "light" (Apollo) and "darkness" (Nyx) isn't disrupted either way.
The scan goes on to explain that there are rumors that Morpheus has planned on the overthrowing of the gods and the consumption of the other dimension, he desires to cause the "illuminating light" that exudes across the entire dimension to disappear. I infer from this is that the stated "illuminating light" is another way to explain Apollo as he's the representation of the sun who controls the light of Helios, which exudes across the entire dimension.
So all in all, I can possibly agree with the former being Nonduality depending on the context while I disagree with the latter being Nonduality until further expansion about Apollo and Nyx's representations are provided.
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merging does not = transcending
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Apollo has nothing to do with it here. It's all about Helios. Apollo never gets the spotlight in GoW aside from a few meaningless references.
Helios is explicitly the one who banishes Nyx from the Night Sky as what is stated in Ascension. He's the true Sun God in Greece.
Nope, Helios is the one who shines his light down upon the World, and then Atlas kidnaps his ass, Morpheus comes in and completes his merge.
Once again, Apollo doesn't exist in GoW. Helios is the sole residing Sun God in GoW until Kratos kills him and uses his head for a flashlight.
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Okay...?
Thanks for clarifying who this representation was I guess, I just went off who was most likely implied to me by the Morpheus scan since Apollo was the only person, who was specifically called out as a character, who fit the category of "representatives of light". Helios was only brought up because of the name of his light, not him as a character.
I don't believe this message was addressing the actual argument itself, but rather was clarifying some issues in regards to whose the representative was. If I'm wrong on this I'll address your contentions later I guess.
Georredannea15
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This thread needs more staff approval to fly, Planck and Elizhaa already agreed with the OP. A few more staff would be enough. But no one comes...
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1 more, this is not tier 1 thread. 3 staff is enough
Georredannea15
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Anyway, I did it to get some movement, already 2 staff have already agreed with type 2 ND
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This is the actual reason for granting Nonduality from the looks of it.
@KingTempest @Theglassman12 @LephyrTheRevanchist @Firestorm808 @Emirp sumitpo @Maverick_Zero_X @LordGriffin1000 @Ultima_Reality @DontTalkDT
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That looks fine ig from what I know about Nonduality
Georredannea15
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Btw Planck said it would be Type 2. Of course he said this later
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im pretty sure it only applies for 48 hours since the creation of the thread
Georredannea15
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For type, When I talked to him later, he said it was supposed to be like that. Ask him anyway, but i'm sure that type 2 encompasses all dualities in reality, like here.
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Wait wait wait, You're going to give them Transduality? Aspect 2 Type 2?
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I think its ND type 2
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