-
This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.
For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here. -
We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.
Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.
Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page. -
Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.
One Piece CRT: Kuzan Tiering Issues
- Thread starter Xulrev
- Start date
- Status
- 8,752
- 1,616
Not quite. Like the momentary heat of a nuke is only for a mere second and you aren't getting disintegrated touching a pan for a second, just getting blasted with a fireball isn't dura neg. Not only it needs to be high enough, it has to be able to affect people the right way, Ej; see, again, smacking someone with ice versus actually freezing them solid or lowering their temperature to a lethal level.
I think there's even a character here we have as negating dura by breaking the things he freezes solid because they just don't instantly die... still, for real, I recommend checking the thread about heat and freezing feats for a general idea.
I think there's even a character here we have as negating dura by breaking the things he freezes solid because they just don't instantly die... still, for real, I recommend checking the thread about heat and freezing feats for a general idea.
- 14,574
- 5,874
I've read most of this thread and OMG.
I'm ******* tired of you advocating for 6-B being outlier, Damage. You were completely debunked, outvoted and rejected before yet you still try to argue such bullshit because you don't learn when to give up.
As for the topic, it's true that Admirals have not too many feats with DF to provide the scaling, but in their defense, Goken is mentioned as a defensive and offensive technique, but I don't remember if it was stated that such application also enhances the user's stats like Kouka does. I'm neutral about this precisely because of this unknown variant.
Akainu has Durability Negation because his heat can vaporize flesh and bones from people stronger than him and it was stated that it has an easier time doing so. Heat in fiction is never depicted as such, which is normally the rule for these kind of powers. X character generates heat above the Earth core's but people walks around normally left to the user. In this case Akainu is following the normal physics of heat and can do with people stronger than him as seen when he melted through Shirohige's chest and head.
Aokiji has Durability Negation because he can generate frostbite. When he defeated Jozu he froze his whole body to the bone, and Jozu lost his arm just by falling over because his body turned frail by the frostbite.
Kizaru has it because of the wiki. I remember being neutral or against it because I found it iffy.
I'm ******* tired of you advocating for 6-B being outlier, Damage. You were completely debunked, outvoted and rejected before yet you still try to argue such bullshit because you don't learn when to give up.
As for the topic, it's true that Admirals have not too many feats with DF to provide the scaling, but in their defense, Goken is mentioned as a defensive and offensive technique, but I don't remember if it was stated that such application also enhances the user's stats like Kouka does. I'm neutral about this precisely because of this unknown variant.
Akainu has Durability Negation because his heat can vaporize flesh and bones from people stronger than him and it was stated that it has an easier time doing so. Heat in fiction is never depicted as such, which is normally the rule for these kind of powers. X character generates heat above the Earth core's but people walks around normally left to the user. In this case Akainu is following the normal physics of heat and can do with people stronger than him as seen when he melted through Shirohige's chest and head.
Aokiji has Durability Negation because he can generate frostbite. When he defeated Jozu he froze his whole body to the bone, and Jozu lost his arm just by falling over because his body turned frail by the frostbite.
Kizaru has it because of the wiki. I remember being neutral or against it because I found it iffy.
- 30,221
- 31,753
I agree with Calaca.
- 1,461
- 764
- Thread starter
- #85
So it seems that the general consensus is agreement with my OP then, since the Durability Negation precludes any ability to scale to Whitebeard directly and there's no scaling from Goken to physicals or Devil's Fruit powers, and no staff members have outright disagreed with it, and nobody can bring any semblance of an argument against my posited solutions, yes?
Edit: nowhere has it been stated that Haki enhances stats, to address that query of yours, Calaca; Rayleigh explicitly states it's an exterior ability or 'weapon/armor' the user is wielding. It's more akin to surrounding your fist with a ball of raw kinetic energy. Punching someone with the ball doesn't mean your body physically generated the AP to produce the damage the ball of energy produces, and it'd be a textbook fallacy to equate the ball's energy to your body's since it's two mechanisms at work
Edit: nowhere has it been stated that Haki enhances stats, to address that query of yours, Calaca; Rayleigh explicitly states it's an exterior ability or 'weapon/armor' the user is wielding. It's more akin to surrounding your fist with a ball of raw kinetic energy. Punching someone with the ball doesn't mean your body physically generated the AP to produce the damage the ball of energy produces, and it'd be a textbook fallacy to equate the ball's energy to your body's since it's two mechanisms at work
- 30,140
- 25,477
> I'm ******* tired of you advocating for 6-B being outlier, Damage. You were completely debunked, outvoted and rejected before yet you still try to argue such bullshit because you don't learn when to give up.
I don't particularly care if you're tired of it; I have to maintain the position that I think makes the most sense.
It is nonsense to say I was debunked about it; you can't debunk it being an outlier. The only thing you can say correctly is that I was outvoted and rejected in the past because more people happen to agree that it wasn't an outlier.
Since you're a member of staff Calaca you might want to be a bit more reasonable in your discourse than "I'm ******* tired of you advocating for 6-B being outlier" and "you still try to argue such bullshit". It doesn't reflect well on you.
@Xulrev; yes, it looks like the majority agree with or are neutral about your OP argument so far.
I don't particularly care if you're tired of it; I have to maintain the position that I think makes the most sense.
It is nonsense to say I was debunked about it; you can't debunk it being an outlier. The only thing you can say correctly is that I was outvoted and rejected in the past because more people happen to agree that it wasn't an outlier.
Since you're a member of staff Calaca you might want to be a bit more reasonable in your discourse than "I'm ******* tired of you advocating for 6-B being outlier" and "you still try to argue such bullshit". It doesn't reflect well on you.
@Xulrev; yes, it looks like the majority agree with or are neutral about your OP argument so far.
- 2,426
- 476
Xulrev raises some techincally accurate points however in practice it would make matters convuluted.
Goken =/= freezing/magma/etc. Goken=Goken, that's it. Okay, I get that
Thing is we're not that strict about different attacks getting different ratings. Imagine if we did
Sakazuki: At Least small city level with magma, town level physically. Low 6-B with Goken
Whitebeard: 6-B with quakes, wall level physically.
I disagree with the downgrade, especially with @Cin's proposal as it doesn't address Xuluv's points but just takes us back to where the profiles were before: messed up.
Goken =/= freezing/magma/etc. Goken=Goken, that's it. Okay, I get that
Thing is we're not that strict about different attacks getting different ratings. Imagine if we did
Sakazuki: At Least small city level with magma, town level physically. Low 6-B with Goken
Whitebeard: 6-B with quakes, wall level physically.
I disagree with the downgrade, especially with @Cin's proposal as it doesn't address Xuluv's points but just takes us back to where the profiles were before: messed up.
- 30,140
- 25,477
> Thing is we're not that strict about different attacks getting different ratings
We are necessarily strict when it comes to scaling with different attacks.
If Luffy punched someone with a basic no-DF punch, we wouldn't scale them to his best showings with Gear 3, for example.
We are necessarily strict when it comes to scaling with different attacks.
If Luffy punched someone with a basic no-DF punch, we wouldn't scale them to his best showings with Gear 3, for example.
- 1,461
- 764
- Thread starter
- #89
Fortunately, it's not my fault that the profiles don't have adequate scaling and ratings and rely, solely, upon horrific explanations for their current tierings.Dr.Fix said:
Unfortunately to your 'convoluted' point, Fix, I really love One Piece and have the know-how to point out how horridly inaccurate the wiki currently is on the tiering here. If our profiles get messed up and require being factually inaccurate to support them being 'not messy', then we've failed.
I believe we will be able to find a way to rationalize the tiering being less messy if it's accurate.
Disagreeing with my OP simply due to a belief it might make things messy seems.....fair, from a personal point of view, but ultimately lacking for the wiki's desire to maintain accuracy. I'd be more than willing to search for proper, factually correct scalings later when this gets accepted.
- 30,140
- 25,477
... Well, we should be.
And don't turn this into some ridiculous strawman argument of people arguing for Wall level Whitebeard. You're better than that.
And don't turn this into some ridiculous strawman argument of people arguing for Wall level Whitebeard. You're better than that.
- 2,426
- 476
Yes, it should be, or at least better than it is. I'm realistic about current practices by the staff around here though I admire your optimism.
Call it a strawman if you want. You know it is the logical inference to this and you know @Ant, Calaca, and others won't accept it. I don't even accept such a low rating.
Call it a strawman if you want. You know it is the logical inference to this and you know @Ant, Calaca, and others won't accept it. I don't even accept such a low rating.
- 1,461
- 764
- Thread starter
- #94
As to the scaling from different attacks though, the wiki is pretty strict generally speaking, or it should be; I will defend Damage on that point.
We don't scale Bleach Kido to physicals, for instance, to my knowledge. And we wouldn't give Sui Feng her Bankai's AP in base physicals, just to draw an analogy. Same thing here. Whitebeard's quakes are quite akin to her missile she launches, and in no way reflect upon what she herself is capable of physically
We don't scale Bleach Kido to physicals, for instance, to my knowledge. And we wouldn't give Sui Feng her Bankai's AP in base physicals, just to draw an analogy. Same thing here. Whitebeard's quakes are quite akin to her missile she launches, and in no way reflect upon what she herself is capable of physically
Stefano4444
He/Him- 6,092
- 5,199
Considering that Akainu always used his Devil Fruit (likely in conjunction with Haki) to enchanted his physical attacks, it pretty clear that his Striking Strength should scale to his Attack Potency.LSirLancelotDuLacl said:
Have you completely forgotten volcano eruptions and nukes aren't only heat energy? Or that the lion's share of what we calc out of them is unrelated to the the heat but to the explosion? How hot the fireball is and how powerful the explosion are different things.
They are not the best examples but you still get the point, right?
I give you a better example, consider a character that can withstand a punch capable to pulverize a mountain, but is also capable to withstand a fireball that can capable to incinerate a building.
Tell me, do you think it would make sense if we assume his Durability to be like this?
"Mountain level again physical attacks, Town level+ again fire based attacks"
No, even if those attacks are very different (one is Kinetic Energy, the other is Heat), the latter is still far below the former in term of energy output, if the guy can survive physical attacks on such level, then he should be capable to tank fire based attacks on the same level.
Just like Dr.Fix say, if we start to get that strict with different attacks getting different ratings, then we ended turn many profiles intro such convoluted messes with little sense.
Then that was either the mistake of the people doing the profile or, for whatever reason, those characters freezing people never ends up lethal (which wouldn't surprise me since this is fiction...). Past screw ups don't justify new ones.
With the large amount of characters who doesn't have Durability Negation via Ice Manipulation, when with the same reasoning you brought they should had such ability (due of them having the ability to freeze people in a similar fashion to Aokiji), i make the feeling that Aokiji its the outlier here.
Stefano4444
He/Him- 6,092
- 5,199
I'm not an expert with Bleach, but i'm not sure if Whitebeard can be comparable.Xulrev said:
1) WB had show to be able to use his quakes to enchanted his punches/bisento (in both offensive and defensive), meaning his Devil Fruit powers isn't limited to range attacks and it can be apply in physical combat, while with Sui-Feng her Bankai doesn't seen capable to make her physically stronger.
2) WB still scale to characters who should be physically strong survive/took his quakes but also match him in a direct confrontation, Akainu (despire be physically weaker) was still tough enough to survive several powerful blows from a bloodluster WB, and Roger was his equal meaning he would had to be physically strong enough to survive WB's strongest attacks.
- 1,461
- 764
- Thread starter
- #97
1. A quake-enhanced punch results in the quake dealing the damage, focalized into his punch. It's not his actual base physicals being amped, is moreso my point. Other than that, I don't disagree per se.
2. Akainu did indeed survive two hits from Whitebeard, after Whitebeard had been impaled center-mass and suffered dozens of injuries already, however. Roger, on the other hand, we have actually SEEN clash with Whitebeard now in the manga, both using Goken, in their prime. Not terribly comparable
2. Akainu did indeed survive two hits from Whitebeard, after Whitebeard had been impaled center-mass and suffered dozens of injuries already, however. Roger, on the other hand, we have actually SEEN clash with Whitebeard now in the manga, both using Goken, in their prime. Not terribly comparable
- 102
- 26
wht sin decided here?
- 1,461
- 764
- Thread starter
- #100
A bit of a nitpick there, methinks.Dr.Fix said:
@BigBoi
So far it seems my solution is still unwaveringly accurate: we remove all scaling from the Admirals which relies upon their Devil Fruit powers or physicals, and we remove scaling to Whitebeard's calc for inconsistency/the fact he was outright dying when he assailed Akainu
Stefano4444
He/Him- 6,092
- 5,199
I mean, it kinda is, if WB can used his quakes to make his physical attacks more powerful, then it means that his Devil Fruit's power can be used to amp his physical attacks, and this can be apply with other Devil Fruit users like Akainu, Jozu, Doffy, Katakuri and etc.Xulrev said:
Yes, most of the power come from the quake itself, but the punch still count as a physical attack, it would still scale to his regular Striking Strength, especially when he always use his Devil Fruit's power in a physical fight.
True, and yet this was still a Bloodluster WB who was going all out again Akainu, and while he had be severely injured i don't believe that he had lost most of his strength at that point.Xulrev said:
Characters in OP have show to suffer major injuries during combat and still keep a good chuck of their strength, like Doffy or Akainu.
Also, if the Admirals were that much weak compare to WB, they wouldn't had be able to slow him down like they did during the Arc, regardless if he was sick or not, since WB's ill only stated to seriously harm him during his fight with Akainu.
- 1,461
- 764
- Thread starter
- #102
Only gonna reply to one bit of your comment since it's the only truly new discussion point.Stefano4444 said:
Whitebeard kicks off the fight getting impaled, center-mass, by an ally vastly weaker than him and is incapable of reacting due to his illness. He also then takes a magma-fuelled punch center-mass later courtesy of Akainu due to the illness.
Whitebeard, on this stage, overall is absurdly gimped by his illness. The Admirals 'slowed him down' via usage of their elemental attacks which could bypass his durability.
Whitebeard was vastly above the Admirals in terms of AP due to the Gura Gura no Mi, nothing more, really
- 14,574
- 5,874
@Damage look, I don't particularly care for the way I Express my feelings. Me being ******* tired has no offesive purposes at all.
Arguing that every feat X times above the rest is an outlier is a BS argument. We'd need to debunk simple scaling for the 90% of the wiki so you can sleep easy if that's the case.
You was outvoted because your argument holds no water. If the 6-B feat is an outlier basically anything above 9-C is an outlier for the Real World and we can produce such weapons anyway.
Anything from any verse would be deemed as an outlier just because it makes a jump. We had this discussion and your only reason was "the result is too high" and "I think this is an outlier". Both fallacies. No argument at all.
@Xulrev I agree that the Low 6-B is an arbitrary rating we gave to those characters. But we did it for lacking more conclusive evidence about the Admirals' feats. We ran out of options to cover them being inferior to WB yet able to somewhat keep up with him.
If Kizaru's DN is removed, he has a feat where he pierced his arm with a laser, for example. I also remember him stopping one of the quakes by putting his foot above the bisento but that's one I don't remember so well.
Arguing that every feat X times above the rest is an outlier is a BS argument. We'd need to debunk simple scaling for the 90% of the wiki so you can sleep easy if that's the case.
You was outvoted because your argument holds no water. If the 6-B feat is an outlier basically anything above 9-C is an outlier for the Real World and we can produce such weapons anyway.
Anything from any verse would be deemed as an outlier just because it makes a jump. We had this discussion and your only reason was "the result is too high" and "I think this is an outlier". Both fallacies. No argument at all.
@Xulrev I agree that the Low 6-B is an arbitrary rating we gave to those characters. But we did it for lacking more conclusive evidence about the Admirals' feats. We ran out of options to cover them being inferior to WB yet able to somewhat keep up with him.
If Kizaru's DN is removed, he has a feat where he pierced his arm with a laser, for example. I also remember him stopping one of the quakes by putting his foot above the bisento but that's one I don't remember so well.
- 1,461
- 764
- Thread starter
- #104
@Calaca
While fair, I think I've highlighted enough evidence and context to warrant removal of their scaling to the quake calc entirely; too many factually inconsistent or outright incorrect things need to be assumed for the scaling to be valid. If we remotely care to be accurate, the scaling needs removed for the Admirals, as well as anyone who physically scales to them
While fair, I think I've highlighted enough evidence and context to warrant removal of their scaling to the quake calc entirely; too many factually inconsistent or outright incorrect things need to be assumed for the scaling to be valid. If we remotely care to be accurate, the scaling needs removed for the Admirals, as well as anyone who physically scales to them
- 14,574
- 5,874
I don't have a problem with it, athough we'd need to find another way to justify such scaling anyway.
- 30,140
- 25,477
I won't comment on the rest of it because it doesn't really deserve it, but this point of your comment:
> If the 6-B feat is an outlier basically anything above 9-C is an outlier for the Real World and we can produce such weapons anyway.
Basic strawman fallacy. The real world definitely has a sliding scale of weapons that go from Wall level all the way up to Mountain level. An outlier in the "Real World" would be somebody having a small bomb that they claimed was Island level. It's reasonable to be skeptical of that.
But let's leave that aside. It seems we've come to a sort of consensus so that the next step is to look at what we can do to fix the scaling and which profiles need rewriting.
> If the 6-B feat is an outlier basically anything above 9-C is an outlier for the Real World and we can produce such weapons anyway.
Basic strawman fallacy. The real world definitely has a sliding scale of weapons that go from Wall level all the way up to Mountain level. An outlier in the "Real World" would be somebody having a small bomb that they claimed was Island level. It's reasonable to be skeptical of that.
But let's leave that aside. It seems we've come to a sort of consensus so that the next step is to look at what we can do to fix the scaling and which profiles need rewriting.
- 2,426
- 476
>> It seems we've come to a sort of consensus so that the next step is to look at what we can do to fix the scaling and which profiles need rewriting.
Sorry I don't see it. @Stefano, Calaca, & Dragon among others seem to be against any changes. I still don't hear a solution from @Xulev regarding replacement. They have a lot to say about feats not scaling but nothing constructive so we don't have blank profiles because nothing counts.
Doesn't make much sense for the admirals to have a low 6-B attack (Something Boa's sisters, the science guy, and now Luffy has as well) while being otherwise mountain level or lower DF/Physicals.
That said if we do remove the low 6-B tier just because it is too high for them then the admirals would downgrade to mountain level or large mountain level if they scale to Sweet Commanders.
Sorry I don't see it. @Stefano, Calaca, & Dragon among others seem to be against any changes. I still don't hear a solution from @Xulev regarding replacement. They have a lot to say about feats not scaling but nothing constructive so we don't have blank profiles because nothing counts.
Doesn't make much sense for the admirals to have a low 6-B attack (Something Boa's sisters, the science guy, and now Luffy has as well) while being otherwise mountain level or lower DF/Physicals.
That said if we do remove the low 6-B tier just because it is too high for them then the admirals would downgrade to mountain level or large mountain level if they scale to Sweet Commanders.
- 1,461
- 764
- Thread starter
- #108
Affected profiles:
Kuzan (Admiral Aokiji) needs Small Country level tiering reduced to Mountain level since it's the only support for his page via calcs at the moment; Large Mountain is a likely rating since c'mon, he's stronger than Luffy
Sakazuki (Admiral Akainu) requires the same as Kuza
Borsalino (Admiral Kizaru) requires the same as Kuzan, minus Mountain level since no calcs exist
Marco needs Small Country level tiering removed as a result of scaling to Kuzan
Vista (One Piece) needs Small Country level tiering removed as a result of scaling to Sakazuki
Silvers Rayleigh needs Small Country level tiering removed as a result of scaling only to Borsalino
Jozu needs scaling to Kuzan removed and tiering reduced as a result
Donquixote Doflamingo needs Small Country level tiering removed as a result of scaling to Jozu
Monkey D. Luffy needs Small Country level tiering removed as a result of scaling to Doffy' scaling to Jozu
Charlotte Katakuri needs Small Country level tiering removed as a result of scaling to Luffy
Charlotte Cracker needs Small Country level tiering removed as a result of scaling to Luffy
Charlotte Smoothie needs Small Country level tiering removed as a result of scaling to Cracker
Crocodile (One Piece) needs Small Country level tiering removed as a result of scaling to Akainu and Doffy
Portgas D. Ace needs Small Country level tiering removed as a result of scaling to Marco and Jozu and Kuzan
Blackbeard (One Piece) needs Small Country level tiering removed as a result of scaling to Ace
Jack (One Piece) needs Small Country level tiering removed as a result of scaling to other Yonko Commanders
.....I THINK that's everyone. Holy shit we had a lot of people scaling to one singular absurdly shaky set of circumstances.
Sakazuki (Admiral Akainu) requires the same as Kuza
Borsalino (Admiral Kizaru) requires the same as Kuzan, minus Mountain level since no calcs exist
Marco needs Small Country level tiering removed as a result of scaling to Kuzan
Vista (One Piece) needs Small Country level tiering removed as a result of scaling to Sakazuki
Silvers Rayleigh needs Small Country level tiering removed as a result of scaling only to Borsalino
Jozu needs scaling to Kuzan removed and tiering reduced as a result
Donquixote Doflamingo needs Small Country level tiering removed as a result of scaling to Jozu
Monkey D. Luffy needs Small Country level tiering removed as a result of scaling to Doffy' scaling to Jozu
Charlotte Katakuri needs Small Country level tiering removed as a result of scaling to Luffy
Charlotte Cracker needs Small Country level tiering removed as a result of scaling to Luffy
Charlotte Smoothie needs Small Country level tiering removed as a result of scaling to Cracker
Crocodile (One Piece) needs Small Country level tiering removed as a result of scaling to Akainu and Doffy
Portgas D. Ace needs Small Country level tiering removed as a result of scaling to Marco and Jozu and Kuzan
Blackbeard (One Piece) needs Small Country level tiering removed as a result of scaling to Ace
Jack (One Piece) needs Small Country level tiering removed as a result of scaling to other Yonko Commanders
.....I THINK that's everyone. Holy shit we had a lot of people scaling to one singular absurdly shaky set of circumstances.
- 1,461
- 764
- Thread starter
- #109
@Fix
Re-read the thread then. Dragon concurs with Calaca who was adamantly neutral until recently agreeing with the factual circumstances surrounding the scaling. And I don't need to bother with a replacement right now, one step at a time, we aer making profiles accurate first
Re-read the thread then. Dragon concurs with Calaca who was adamantly neutral until recently agreeing with the factual circumstances surrounding the scaling. And I don't need to bother with a replacement right now, one step at a time, we aer making profiles accurate first
- 1,461
- 764
- Thread starter
- #111
It's really not my issue, first of all, when I'm simply removing inaccurate scaling. That's on the other people who allowed such bunk through in the first place.
Secondly, we have tenuous back-scaling of Large Mountain+ from Luffy to Doffy branching out to literally everybody on this list via 2 or 3 scaling chain jumps, if you paid attention, so it solved itself. So I repeat: I do not need to bother with replacements at the moment
Secondly, we have tenuous back-scaling of Large Mountain+ from Luffy to Doffy branching out to literally everybody on this list via 2 or 3 scaling chain jumps, if you paid attention, so it solved itself. So I repeat: I do not need to bother with replacements at the moment
- 30,140
- 25,477
Not all profiles are going to be blank. Some of them have pre-existing ratings like Jack.
The Low 6-B scaling can be removed without removing everything.
The Low 6-B scaling can be removed without removing everything.
- 30,140
- 25,477
@Dr. Fix... what are you talking about?
Eminiteable
He/Him- 7,389
- 6,604
So because Staff will claim unlawful vandalism (based solely on your judgment on staff opinion) people will be banned?
- 30,140
- 25,477
Nobody would remove a rating / justification only to leave the profile blank. That'd just be silly.
- 14,409
- 1,692
This has definitely happened before..Eminiteable said:
- 1,461
- 764
- Thread starter
- #119
- 165,393
- 72,720
I think that it is fine to continue scaling the admirals, and comparable characters, to Low 6-B due to being demonstrated as more than a third as strong as Whitebeard.
Also, we have already gone through the discussion that 6-B was a legitimate feat over and over.
Also, we have already gone through the discussion that 6-B was a legitimate feat over and over.
- Status
