One Piece: Wano Arc Part 2.5: AP and Lifting Revisions; The Shogun

[GodlyCharmander]

My honest opinion? The feat is perfectly usable for the time being. It is not flawless, of course, but it is usable for the time being.


You can't quite argue that a sudden fall of this magnitude and with this acceleration breaks the laws of physics somehow, but there is no alternative where this feat doesn't break those laws, so the argument is wildly overstated. The argument of waiting for the anime is also not helpful to the first argument, because there is not the slightest possibility of Toei animating the scene to last a realistic amount of time with gravity, i.e. it will break physics in any variable. So we can cross that point off the list, it is not a valid criticism.
So even if Onigashima was free falling, the argument wouldn't be valid whatsoever.


But that's not even the case. Momonosuke is the one pushing the island down. So the acceleration is justified by the character's strength.
Basically meaning the acceleration isn't breaking any laws of physics.


The Island did not break because Momo's Flame Clouds dampened the fall and absorbed all of the kinetic energy generated by that trip. In other words, in no variable were the laws of physics broken.
Acceleration is caused by the force of Momonosuke dragging the island.
The lack of destruction is justified by the Flame Clouds.
The argument is simply invalid.


Now about the timeframe. Arguing 5 minutes is ridiculous. It happened in a sequence of extremely short events and placed as fast paced, in very few panels. Ten seconds is fair. You can say wait for the Anime, yes, but waiting for secondary canon only works if the manga is unclear. That is not the case, you are just incredulous for the timeframe and looking for reasons why this timeframe could not be, instead of looking for evidence for new, more solid timeframes.
It's always "It could be"
"Maybe"
"Perhaps each panel is taking excruciatingly long"


None of your criticisms are solid, they are speculative, they tell us not to take what was shown in a literal way, they just try to debunk the assumed timeframe with the fast scenes instead of presenting an alternative and then arguing why that alternative is better. I'm sorry, but "I don't like the timeframe" is not going to be taken seriously here, I suggest refining your points to something more believable, because the solution to KingTempest's "unrealistic" timeframe is Kaidou sinking into the earth for endless minutes for no reason. The timeframe is fair, anything between 10-30 seconds fits that context in my opinion, 10 seconds is just the commonly used, and it's usually around that.


Waiting for the Anime can be a valid thing. But it can't be the decisive thing for the approval of that thread and that calculation. Instead of this unnecessary waiting (because no one has any solid criticism for the timeframe beyond incredulity), let's act as if the Anime isn't a factor yet - because it isn't - and approve this feat. When the Anime arrives, then, should it be free of cinematic timeframe, we can use it.
Because there's that too, it's almost guaranteed that we'll get a more complete version of the flashback during Kaidou's fall, making the timeframe of the feat totally useless, because according to Damage, we can't just cut the Flashback time and join the ends of the clips together. Waiting for the anime is an incongruous solution without any cohesion, as well as being unreliable.


Anyway, I agree with the OP

 

[Eseseso]

As others have said, if we're going to wait 2 years to use the anime timeframe (which may not be the best idea since Toei LOVES dragging out events in every OP episode), we might as well use the anime timeframe for things like Roger and Whitebeard's cloud split

 

[Damage3245]

@GodlyCharmander Even if I agree that the calc itself were perfectly fine, there's consistency issues that would make it a problem to be used. I'll elaborate on a few minutes when I get back to my PC.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

consistency issues

 

[Damage3245]

Circling back to this scan from chapter 1027.

Yamato remarks on the Flower Capital being close, but considering the scale of events here, let's assume she means something incredibly high like the Flower Capital is 500 km away from having Onigashima dropped on it.

We know that Onigashima is five minutes away from that point (not 5 minutes while being slowed down; this is before Momonosuke's efforts to slow it down). So for the time being we can calc that Kaidou was moving Onigashima at 1666.66667 m/s. A high speed to be sure, and we can use that figure out the kinetic energy of Onigashima.

Assuming the highest calced mass for Onigashima currently, which is 1.6817523e+17 kg, we get a kinetic energy of 2.3357671e+23 joules or 55.8 Teratons.

Why is this relevant? Because we've seen in that same scan up above from chapter 1027 that Momonosuke tried stopping Onigashima using his striking strength and he was unsuccessful. He rammed into Onigashima, headbutting it without any noticeable effects on its trajectory and Yamato told him that it wouldn't work. The only thing - she believes - that is capable of stopping it, is even bigger flame clouds. Not Momonosuke's strength.

So Momonosuke's striking strength (his AP) isn't sufficient to stop Onigashima just when Kaido is moving it. When it came to his lifting strength over time (pulling on Kaidou's flame clouds), it took several chapters before he commented that he was having an effect in reversing Onigashima. So him pushing back against in a more protracted way than his headbutting isn't enough to immediately counteract it either.

Yet this calced feat of Onigashima going down to the ground is over eighty times higher than Onigashima's earlier kinetic energy. That same KE which Momonosuke couldn't stop with his striking strength and required several chapters of effort in order to overcome.

That's what I mean by consistency issues. If the argument, as SnookB says up above, is that the feat is solely indicative of Momonosuke's physical abilities, then it is inconsistent.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

Once again, I interpret Flame Clouds as making things floaty like a balloon, and Momonosuke just floated Onigashima down

Like when Momo is pulling Onigashima around, that’s valid for physicals, but floating it to the ground, not so much

As for the Luffy argument, well Luffy was flying in Gear 5th and has his own balloon physics as well, which could explain why he fell after Onigashima landed

 

[SnookB]

@SnookB; I want to have a quick topic on the consistency of this to hopefully make it clear to you why I don't fully buy that. Now, first off so that we're on the same page, do you think we can use this page to figure out how far away Onigashima is from the Flower Capital?

That's so far back, though. It changes height and direction entirely from 1027 to 1039. In that it's facing the capital and all. Here is the more recent shot not long before Momo started panicking about creating his clouds and GEAR 5.

 

[Damage3245]

That's so far back, though. It changes height and direction entirely from 1027 to 1039. In that it's facing the capital and all. Here is the more recent shot not long before Momo started panicking about creating his clouds and GEAR 5.

You're absolutely correct, but that doesn't have anything to do with my point.

 

[SnookB]

You're absolutely correct, but that doesn't have anything to do with my point.

I get what your point is. Momo couldn't force it back initially.
But this goes back to your own point that Momo was also getting countered by Kaido's flames. By 1027, a much STRONGER Kaido too. He had no chance at doing so. In 1039 Kaido's beginning to weak and Momo has an easier time pulling the island because of the lack of resistance.
In 1049 there's zero resistance and he yanks the island (albeit a lighter one) tens of kilometers away (because of bajrang gun's size) in a second.

 

[SnookB]

Has anyone tried calculating this?

Momo's physical strength with zero Kaido clouds resistance was enough to yank Onigashima out of Bajrang Gun and Flame Kaido's way all the same page

 

[Eseseso]

Has anyone tried calculating this?

Momo's physical strength with zero Kaido clouds resistance was enough to yank Onigashima out of Bajrang Gun and Flame Kaido's way all the same page

How exactly would that calc be impressive?

 

[Damage3245]

Has anyone tried calculating this?

Momo's physical strength with zero Kaido clouds resistance was enough to yank Onigashima out of Bajrang Gun and Flame Kaido's way all the same page

Assuming it took Momonosuke 3 seconds to move the entirety of Onigashima a distance equivalent to the diameter of Onigashima at the time (so that no part of it would be occupying the space that it was previously), that would net around 108 Teratons.

 

[Eseseso]

Assuming it took Momonosuke 3 seconds to move the entirety of Onigashima a distance equivalent to the diameter of Onigashima at the time (so that no part of it would be occupying the space that it was previously), that would net around 108 Teratons.

It probably took more than 3 seconds IMO.

 

[SnookB]

Yeah, outside of LS anything here would be too low to make a change, unless it would rate for Momonosuke alone.

 

[KingTempest]

Circling back to this scan from chapter 1027.

Yamato remarks on the Flower Capital being close, but considering the scale of events here, let's assume she means something incredibly high like the Flower Capital is 500 km away from having Onigashima dropped on it.

We know that Onigashima is five minutes away from that point (not 5 minutes while being slowed down; this is before Momonosuke's efforts to slow it down). So for the time being we can calc that Kaidou was moving Onigashima at 1666.66667 m/s. A high speed to be sure, and we can use that figure out the kinetic energy of Onigashima.

Assuming the highest calced mass for Onigashima currently, which is 1.6817523e+17 kg, we get a kinetic energy of 2.3357671e+23 joules or 55.8 Teratons.

Why is this relevant? Because we've seen in that same scan up above from chapter 1027 that Momonosuke tried stopping Onigashima using his striking strength and he was unsuccessful. He rammed into Onigashima, headbutting it without any noticeable effects on its trajectory and Yamato told him that it wouldn't work. The only thing - she believes - that is capable of stopping it, is even bigger flame clouds. Not Momonosuke's strength.

So Momonosuke's striking strength (his AP) isn't sufficient to stop Onigashima just when Kaido is moving it. When it came to his lifting strength over time (pulling on Kaidou's flame clouds), it took several chapters before he commented that he was having an effect in reversing Onigashima. So him pushing back against in a more protracted way than his headbutting isn't enough to immediately counteract it either.

Yet this calced feat of Onigashima going down to the ground is over eighty times higher than Onigashima's earlier kinetic energy. That same KE which Momonosuke couldn't stop with his striking strength and required several chapters of effort in order to overcome.

That's what I mean by consistency issues. If the argument, as SnookB says up above, is that the feat is solely indicative of Momonosuke's physical abilities, then it is inconsistent.

Here's a reply.

1. Don't make that baseless assumption of 500 km away from having Onigashima dropped on it. From what we can see it's even further than that when we compare it with the height Onigashima is from the ground

2. Momonosuke tried to stop it. He wouldn't stop it with a headbutt. He would stop it with CONTINUOUS FORCE. Franky momentarily stopped the Sea Train, then it proceeded to regain speed and run over him.

3. Did you forget that Kaidou is pulling it? And that he still has to counter Kaidou's pull on it?
I can kick a chair off the ground. I can't kick a chair when the legs of it are stuck in a train.
I can push a couch. I can't push a couch being moved by a train.
There's a lot of stuff being ignored.

This isn't a consistency issue, it's failing to recognize the events here.

Your logic is like saying that Wapol is wall level because he got hurt from Luffy flying at (max) low end mach speeds, and all you factor is Luffy's mass and speed

 

[StrawHatArslan]

Here's a reply.

1. Don't make that baseless assumption of 500 km away from having Onigashima dropped on it. From what we can see it's even further than that when we compare it with the height Onigashima is from the ground

2. Momonosuke tried to stop it. He wouldn't stop it with a headbutt. He would stop it with CONTINUOUS FORCE. Franky momentarily stopped the Sea Train, then it proceeded to regain speed and run over him.

3. Did you forget that Kaidou is pulling it? And that he still has to counter Kaidou's pull on it?
I can kick a chair off the ground. I can't kick a chair when the legs of it are stuck in a train.
I can push a couch. I can't push a couch being moved by a train.
There's a lot of stuff being ignored.

This isn't a consistency issue, it's failing to recognize the events here.

Your logic is like saying that Wapol is wall level because he got hurt from Luffy flying at (max) low end mach speeds, and all you factor is Luffy's mass and speed

PREACH PREACH HOLY SHIT, ive been seeing the same repetitive arguments from his end and you explained it perfectly.

 

[Damage3245]

1. Don't make that baseless assumption of 500 km away from having Onigashima dropped on it. From what we can see it's even further than that when we compare it with the height Onigashima is from the ground

The 500 km was a generous over-estimation. With angsizing, the result is less than that.

2. Momonosuke tried to stop it. He wouldn't stop it with a headbutt. He would stop it with CONTINUOUS FORCE. Franky momentarily stopped the Sea Train, then it proceeded to regain speed and run over him.

You don't necessarily need continuous force applied to something in order to stop an object in motion.

3. Did you forget that Kaidou is pulling it? And that he still has to counter Kaidou's pull on it?
This isn't a consistency issue, it's failing to recognize the events here.

The calc is for the kinetic energy of Kaidou's pulling on it; Kaidou is applying that level of kinetic energy to move it. That's not being ignored; that is the root of the argument.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Circling back to this scan from chapter 1027.

Yamato remarks on the Flower Capital being close, but considering the scale of events here, let's assume she means something incredibly high like the Flower Capital is 500 km away from having Onigashima dropped on it.

We know that Onigashima is five minutes away from that point (not 5 minutes while being slowed down; this is before Momonosuke's efforts to slow it down). So for the time being we can calc that Kaidou was moving Onigashima at 1666.66667 m/s. A high speed to be sure, and we can use that figure out the kinetic energy of Onigashima.

Assuming the highest calced mass for Onigashima currently, which is 1.6817523e+17 kg, we get a kinetic energy of 2.3357671e+23 joules or 55.8 Teratons.

Why is this relevant? Because we've seen in that same scan up above from chapter 1027 that Momonosuke tried stopping Onigashima using his striking strength and he was unsuccessful. He rammed into Onigashima, headbutting it without any noticeable effects on its trajectory and Yamato told him that it wouldn't work. The only thing - she believes - that is capable of stopping it, is even bigger flame clouds. Not Momonosuke's strength.

So Momonosuke's striking strength (his AP) isn't sufficient to stop Onigashima just when Kaido is moving it. When it came to his lifting strength over time (pulling on Kaidou's flame clouds), it took several chapters before he commented that he was having an effect in reversing Onigashima. So him pushing back against in a more protracted way than his headbutting isn't enough to immediately counteract it either.

Yet this calced feat of Onigashima going down to the ground is over eighty times higher than Onigashima's earlier kinetic energy. That same KE which Momonosuke couldn't stop with his striking strength and required several chapters of effort in order to overcome.

That's what I mean by consistency issues. If the argument, as SnookB says up above, is that the feat is solely indicative of Momonosuke's physical abilities, then it is inconsistent.

Amazing how you could have avoided such an easily retorted point if you paid attention to the situation you are citing. Momonosuke not only has to overcome the force of Onigashima's kinetic energy, but also overcome the thrust that Kaidou's Flame Clouds are putting on the island. Maybe this is news to you Damage, but Kaidou is significantly more powerful than Momonosuke, even more so in hybrid form, so there wouldn't be the slightest possibility of Momo overcoming the force applied to the island. Yamato's comment about Momo's Flame Clouds being potentially more powerful is irrelevant, they are speaking out of ignorance.

There is no problem with consistency, all I see here is poor interpretation. By the way, it's obvious that applying continued strength through LS is going to allow Momonosuke to eventually have some effect on the island, especially with Kaidou getting progressively weaker during the fight. Which is only proof that Kaidou before being progressively weakened was far superior to Momo. Bad argument.

 

[Damage3245]

Amazing how you could have avoided such an easily retorted point if you paid attention to the situation you are citing. Momonosuke not only has to overcome the force of Onigashima's kinetic energy, but also overcome the thrust that Kaidou's Flame Clouds are putting on the island. Maybe this is news to you Damage, but Kaidou is significantly more powerful than Momonosuke, even more so in hybrid form, so there wouldn't be the slightest possibility of Momo overcoming the force applied to the island. Yamato's comment about Momo's Flame Clouds being potentially more powerful is irrelevant, they are speaking out of ignorance.

The thrust of Kaidou's flame clouds is something that can be calculated. I don't see how this is an issue with it?

There is no problem with consistency, all I see here is poor interpretation. By the way, it's obvious that applying continued strength through LS is going to allow Momonosuke to eventually have some effect on the island, especially with Kaidou getting progressively weaker during the fight. Which is only proof that Kaidou before being progressively weakened was far superior to Momo. Bad argument.

I don't see how this is a bad argument? My post acknowledges that Kaidou is stronger than Momonosuke already, which is why Momo couldn't stop Onigashima with his striking strength? It's not something that has been overlooked.

 

[KingTempest]

The 500 km was a generous over-estimation. With angsizing, the result is less than that.

With regular pixelscaling of the size of the flower capital I got it to much larger than the height of onigashima above the ground, aka much larger than the 500 km u got

You don't necessarily need continuous force applied to something in order to stop an object in motion.

To completely stop it to where it stops moving, yes, you need to.
Momo's goal wasn't to stop it for a moment. His goal was to permanently stop the island from moving, which he can't do with a headbutt.

The calc is for the kinetic energy of Kaidou's pulling on it; Kaidou is applying that level of kinetic energy to move it. That's not being ignored; that is the root of the argument.

You didn't counter a single thing I said.

The calc is the kinetic energy of the island moving. Momo can counter that. He can't counter that PLUS Kaidou pulling it.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

The calc is for the kinetic energy of Kaidou's pulling on it; Kaidou is applying that level of kinetic energy to move it. That's not being ignored; that is the root of the argument.

The assumption is that the clouds move at a speed scaling from their strength on the island.
The rebuttal is the fact that the island doesn't slow down even after the clouds get weaker.
They move at a continuous pace, that's not indicative of their total strength. Assuming the Kinetic Energy is representative of the full force of the clouds is a terrible idea.

 

[Damage3245]

The assumption is that the clouds move at a speed scaling from their strength on the island.
The rebuttal is the fact that the island doesn't slow down even after the clouds get weaker.
They move at a continuous pace, that's not indicative of their total strength. Assuming the Kinetic Energy is representative of the full force of the clouds is a terrible idea.

The island is losing mass over time, so that it would require less energy to keep up at that speed.

The calc is the kinetic energy of the island moving. Momo can counter that. He can't counter that PLUS Kaidou pulling it.

How much energy is Kaidou pulling it with?

 

[GroundX1]

Wouldn't it be better to call others in the calculation group to give their opinion on it?

 

[Therefir]

With regular pixelscaling of the size of the flower capital I got it to much larger than the height of onigashima above the ground, aka much larger than the 500 km u got.

I want to see this pixelscaling please, so we can use the stated 5-minute timeframe and get the energy Momo was unable to overpower.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

The island is losing mass over time, so that it would require less energy to keep up at that speed.

So the island is continuously losing mass at the same rate as Kaidou is losing stamina? Amazing. Except it's not.
The clouds move at a consistent pace regardless of how much strength Kaidou has in store, regardless if he transforms to a stronger form, regardless if he is attacked or severely damaged which he was on multiple occasions prior to the constant loss of mass caused by Zoro's fights, and whatnot.

No change in speed is hinted at at any point. The KE is not a true representative of the strength the clouds can apply.

 

[Damage3245]

So the island is continuously losing mass at the same rate as Kaidou is losing stamina? Amazing. Except it's not.
The clouds move at a consistent pace regardless of how much strength Kaidou has in store, regardless if he transforms to a stronger form, regardless if he is attacked or severely damaged which he was on multiple occasions prior to the constant loss of mass caused by Zoro's fights, and whatnot.

No change in speed is hinted at at any point. The KE is not a true representative of the strength the clouds can apply.

You're technically correct as part of the energy of the clouds would be going towards countering Potential Energy of Onigashima. But again, that's not really the point. The point is in what energy Momonosuke is trying to overcome at the time; not the limits of Kaidou's strength.

 

[Therefir]

No change in speed is hinted at at any point. The KE is not a true representative of the strength the clouds can apply.

? If anything this supports DemonGodMitchAubin's interpretation of the Flame Clouds making things floaty like a balloon.

Momonosuke being completely unable to affect Onigashima with his own physical strength supports this even further.

 

[Therefir]

Circling back to this scan from chapter 1027.

Yes, if we used that panel to get the distance and the stated timeframe (which would take precedent over any assumed timeframe) you would get far lower results than High 6-A.

With Momo being completely unable to overpower it, with both his physical strength and flame clouds.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

The point is in what energy Momonosuke is trying to overcome at the time; not the limits of Kaidou's strength.

Are we really doing this again?

The clouds scale to Kaidou's strength directly. They are applying continuous force on the island. Momo cannot overcome it.
It simply means Kaidou's force is greater than Momo's.
Kaidou's strength already scales past the KE calc, too.

? If anything this supports DemonGodMitchAubin's interpretation of the Flame Clouds making things floaty like a balloon.

Momonosuke being completely unable to affect Onigashima with his own physical strength supports this even further.

It doesn't.

I love how this was a "nothing burger"

 

[Damage3245]

The clouds scale to Kaidou's strength directly. They are applying continuous force on the island. Momo cannot overcome it.
It simply means Kaidou's force is greater than Momo's.
Kaidou's strength already scales past the KE calc, too.

The clouds don't scale directly to Kaidou's strength. (As in, just because Kaidou can punch or lift a certain amount with his physical body doesn't necessarily mean he can exert the same force via the Flame Clouds) Physical lifting strength and the lifting strength derived from the flame clouds should be treated seperately.

 

[Therefir]

The clouds scale to Kaidou's strength directly.

This is headcanon, they don't scale directly to his physical strength, you must be reading Three Piece or something.

They are applying continuous force on the island. Momo cannot overcome it.

The island is moving with 6-B KE even with the most generous estimations, whether it is continuous or not wouldn't change anything, it just shows that Momo's feat is either an outlier or has an overestimated timeframe.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

The clouds don't scale directly to Kaidou's strength. Physical lifting strength and the lifting strength derived from the flame clouds should be treated seperately.

Kaidou's LS > Momo's LS = Onigashima's weight

Kaidou definitively scales to the Clouds and vice versa. It quite literally takes from his strength to even sustain them, the separation of the two is quite arbitrary, the clouds simply hold the power to fly and move to a general direction while Kaidou is doing something else.

 

[Damage3245]

Kaidou's LS > Momo's LS = Onigashima's weight

Kaidou definitively scales to the Clouds and vice versa. It quite literally takes from his strength to even sustain them, the separation of the two is quite arbitrary, the clouds simply hold the power to fly and move to a general direction while Kaidou is doing something else.

Strength and stamina aren't exactly the same thing.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

This is headcanon.

The clouds are dependent on Kaidou's strength. The weaker he gets, the weaker the clouds get.
There is no headcanon here, but I can see a lot of coping in your side.

The island is moving with 6-B KE even with the most generous estimations.

That is only the mass and the speed. Kaidou's strength, and the clouds strength aren't factored in. Even the PE of the clouds themselves overwhelms this generous result, so please spare me of your "The KE in this particular instance is more important that scaling and better feats".

 

[Therefir]

Kaidou definitively scales to the Clouds and vice versa. It quite literally takes from his strength to even sustain them, the separation of the two is quite arbitrary, the clouds simply hold the power to fly and move to a general direction while Kaidou is doing something else.

Saying "definitely scales" is not proof by any means, especially when Momo is able to move the island with his Flame Clouds but completely unable to do so with his own physical strength.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Strength and stamina aren't exactly the same thing.

Stamina is how long you can exert your strength. It's strength regardless (and that is the term used rather than stamina, no?).
The lesser stamina meaning you can exert less of your strength, both Kaidou and the clouds lose strength when stamina gets depleted.
It's dependent on his strength.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Saying "definitely scales" is not proof by any means, especially when Momo is able to move the island with his Flame Clouds but completely unable to do so with his own physical strength.

He has literally physically moved the island before, what are you on about?
Also I said definitively, from definitive. Not definitely, from definite.

 

[Therefir]

The clouds are dependent on Kaidou's strength. The weaker he gets, the weaker the clouds get.

This is stamina, it has nothing to do with him getting physically weaker.

Even the PE of the clouds themselves overwhelms this generous result.

I don't care, you can get vastly lower PE results depending on which panel you use.

 

[Eseseso]

Even the PE of the clouds themselves overwhelms this generous result,

How so?

What are the possible high PE results?

 

[SnookB]

Why is the argument now Kaido not scaling to his clouds? It's even supported by him knocking around a character in the same LS as his clouds through said character's guard.
Kaido's stamina sustaining the clouds that held Onigashima direct correlates to him being able to do the feat to begin with.
If he didn't have the power necesssary to carry the island, his clouds wouldn't move it at all. Unless you mean to argue Kaido can carry just about anything ever so long as he has he stamina necessary for it. If he couldn't carry the island, his clouds and stamina would immidiately run out, not last for 15 minutes or longer.