Potential Chara upgrade

[Verivici]

She didn't just destroy the timeline, she basically destroyed the game itself.

When you restart it, there is nothing. She destroyed the fabric of reality that the timeline exists in, essentially killing the very concept that powerful Tier 2 beings may exist in the verse.

 

[The_Everlasting]

What do you even mean with the last paragraph?

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

• Doubts

Considering that it could very well be just deleting the timeline (IIRC there is only one timeline usually in Undertale), and that (IIRC) Chara was never really mentioned destroying something else than just a time line, I think At least 2-C is better.

 

[Antvasima]

I also think that "At least 2-C" seems more appropriate. The game being wiped is more a symbolic gesture from the programmers.

 

[Squid_peanut]

although things in Undertale are rarely not to be taken literally. And while disserning what the event could be seen as, the possible results of this being taken as true are terrifying as it would end up upgrading all of the Undertale god tiers to pretty high levels.

 

[Antvasima]

Again, destroying the entire spacetime continuum is likely taken as the entirety of this reality. I definitely don't think that we should do any unreliable upgrades based on subjective speculation.

 

[Squid_peanut]

Again, destroying the entire spacetime continuum is likely taken as the entirety of this reality. I definitely don't think that we should do any unreliable upgrades based on subjective speculation.

okay, that I totally get and agree with.

• drools still thinking of tier 1 Asriel

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Feat wise Chara just (extremely casually) destroyed a single timeline, but they are hypothesized to be able to keep wiping away timelines at such a quick rate that they'll no longer exist. This is the reason for At least Low 2-C, likely higher.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Is there any confirmed amount of Universes in the Undertale verse?

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Sans hints at there being an endless number of possible timelines, and he's a pretty reliable source. At the end of the genocide route, you're not just resetting the same timeline like you usually do, but instead completely erasing one and moving onto another.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

But...If it is said that Chara will eat everything, shouldn't he be 2-A? I mean, you can't go much far eating something infinite by going one by one.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Well, their best feat is Low 2-C, but yeah, they're hypothetically 2-A, but that's where the "likely far higher" comes from. However, if we did just straight up list Chara as "likely 2-A", that'd make Omega Flowey "likely 2-A" by virtue of being superior, and Asriel "Likely Low 1-C" as even compared to Omega Flowey, his power is literally infinite. That's also where Asriel's "likely far higher" comes from.

Again, there's also the fact that we don't know for 100% sure Chara would destroy every timeline, but the fact that post-genocide ending they've infected every subsequent timeline and that Sans says, "you'll keep consuming timeline after timeline, until...well..." hints at that being the case.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Well I wouldn't mind such upgrades, but is it true that Omega Flowey is stronger than Chara? Like, Chara is the only being IIRC who just straight up murders The Player, the one that has power similar to Asriel.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

True, but Omega Flowey should also be >>> the player (by virtue of having six souls) and the fact that Flowey does indeed yank control of the game away from the player, and is only letting them and Frisk fight because he finds it entertaining.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Mmmh, true.

Well, I'm thinking that putting Chara at "At least 2-C, possibly 2-A" or something would be neat, since, well, we DO know apporx. what their tier would be at max, unlike others "At least" characters, so at least mentioning would help I guess.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Yeah, that sounds good. It would also scale to Frisk, Flowey, and Asriel (possibly 2-A, possibly 2-A, and possibly Low 1-C, respectively), but I want to see what other people think.

 

[Undylan]

I would think there are somewhat endless timelines in undertale with different kind of endings and other stuff that are in the game but haven't done them in that timeline (Ie. Calling toriel mom in a timeline and not calling her mom in a another timeline)

Chara could ruin your game forever unlike omega flowery. The Six Souls may have never stop Chara as well.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Chara could ruin your game forever unlike omega flowery. The Six Souls may have never stop Chara as well.

Omega Flowey can ruin your game, forever. Chara only brought it back when you sell them your soul. The only reason Flowey allowed you to continue is because he enjoyed torturing you and thought you could never win. Remember, when you start up the game to fight Omega Flowey/restart after dying to Omega Flowey, you're not coming back through Determination. He's bringing you back so he can kill you, again.

 

[Undylan]

But is there anything that proves Omega Flowey is more powerful then Chara?

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

But is there anything that proves Omega Flowey is more powerful then Chara?

Yes. The fact that Chara is effectively the power of 1-2 human souls (Chara is just hijacking Frisk for most of the game), while Omega Flowey is the power of 6. There's also the fact that at the beginning of the genocide route (after killing Toriel), Flowey lays out his plans to Chara and says that he has a way to become even more powerful than them/make them more powerful than they are, now (stealing the six human souls). Flowey also trusts Chara at this point, so there's no reason he would lie.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Yes, Flowey. Good idea to trust Chara of all people, it's not going to end in death again or anything.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Yes, Flowey. Good idea to trust Chara of all people, it's not going to end in death again or anything.

Well, to be fair, Chara was the person he cared for most in life, and he thought now that he was a murderous psychopath too, the two of them could finally be super happy, together.

...Yeeeeaaaaah that was super wrong. Chara's kind of a dick.

 

[Promestein]

Okay I got here late, but.

Low 1-C Asriel... I'm ready. And yeah, this all seems like a good idea considering the evidence for it, and even if they were listed as likely higher before, it's best to elaborate to what extent. So! Yes.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Input appreciated. Just waitin' for a few other people to respond before changing anything.

 

[Antvasima]

Hmm. I am uncertain. I have not played the game, but easily destroying a single timeline should not remotely be conclusive proof for 2-A, much less Low 1-C. Please remember that High 2-A is infinitely above 2-C, and low 1-C is infinitely above that.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Hmm. I am uncertain. I have not played the game, but easily destroying a single timeline should not remotely be conclusive proof for 2-A, much less Low 1-C.

It's not because of that. It's because Chara was supposed to destroy all timelines until nothing was left, and you'd have to be able to destroy more than one at a time to get rid of infinite possible timelines (i.e. Anti-Monitor).

 

[Squid_peanut]

It basically seems to stop Frisk (the player) from going to any other timelines

 

[Antvasima]

That is true, if there are infinite timelines, but if said timelines simply represent the number of players/versions of the gameplay that is a very different story.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

It basically seems to stop Frisk (the player) from going to any other timelines

Well, that and Chara destroys existence, leaving nothing left, and only offers to restore it if the player offers up their soul. Technically, Flowey does this too, but he brings you back in order to torture you.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

That is true, if there are infinite timelines, but if said timelines simply represent the number of players/versions of the gameplay that is a very different story.

It's sort of like a Genesis Frog case. There is sort of one "base" or set of blueprints for a universe, but there exists every possible outcome and possibility of said universe in different timelines. Every timeline has a Papyrus, a Sans, an Undyne, etc., but each timeline is different in some way, albeit slight.

 

[Antvasima]

All the possible outcomes of the game still do not remotely amount to an infinite number. It stays firmly within the 2-B territory.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

All the possible outcomes of the fame still do not remotely amount to an infinite number. It stays firmly within the 2-B territory.

Is the reason for that the hypothesized number of universes in our multiverse?

Also, what is a character who is considered infinitely powerful next to a high level 2-B character, then?

Also, just to be clear, this discussion only applies to Undertale, as the number of variations within a Genesis Frog is explicitly infinite.

 

[Squid_peanut]

sorry, but what do you mean by "the fame"?

 

[Antvasima]

The point is that all of the possible variations of even an advanced game should probably number in the tens of thousands at best. 10^500 is an unfathomably large number.

And to answer your second question, still just High 2-A afaIk.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

The point is that all of the possible variations of even an advanced game should probably number in the tens of thousands at best. 10^500 is an unfathomably large number.

It's not limited to the "game". It's every variation of the universe. I used the characters as an example because the player meets them every time, but the world isn't limited to the Underground, as it's explicitly something that affects everything in the universe.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, every variation of every event in the universe is still not remotely an infinite number, and I am uncertain whether or not it amounts to as much as 10^500? (As far as I understand the number of universes in our multiverse are not variations of each other/alternate timelines, but separate spacetime structures.)

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Where does the hypothesized 10^500 come from, in that case? I always assumed it was due to all possible variation.

 

[Antvasima]

Here: http://www.scientificamerican.com/a...ations-lend-support-to-multiverse-hypothesis/

 

[Squid_peanut]

while I see what your getting at Ant., Undertale's verse has proven to have a very abnormal structure. what I mean by this is that things that seem like game mechanics turn out to be actually constraints of the verse's reality.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Well, I stated the 2-A Chara thingy because it thoughts there was an actual statement that the verse had endless timeline, if it isn't the case, Chara should remain at At least 2-C, since he could always eventually eat them all if the number is finite, given that Chara doesn't have much time limits to do so.